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In the Champions of Fenris codex supplement there is a formation that includes a squad in a drop pod and a unit of teleporting WG terminators.

They have a rule that says

Thunderstrike: When rolling for Reserves, make a single Reserve Roll to see when this Formation arrives. On a successful roll, all units in this Formation will arrive. These units must deploy by Deep Strike.

I'm wondering how that interacts with the Drop Pod Assault rule that says

At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve.

There are heaps of possibilities I can think of, but not sure which is correct

1) The teleporting unit could potentially arrive automatically on turn 1 with it's partner Drop Pod due to the Drop Pod Assault rule, and the rule that they arrive together [breaks the normal reserve rules]

2) They get split up if the Thunderstrike DP becomes part of the Drop Pod Assault first wave [breaks the "Thunderstrike" rule]

3) The Thunderstrike DP may not be selected as part of the first wave because it needs to arrive with the teleporting Terminators (who can't arrive first turn) [doesn't break any rule if there are multiple drop pods]

But what if the Thunderstrike Drop Pod was the only one in your list?
You'd have to break one of the rules

Anyone got a perspective on this?

Just from what you've put it sounds like the drop pod has to arrive with the Teleporting Teminators not the other way round.

So if I'm reading it right the usual drop pod rules don't apply to the formation and a single reserve roll is made for both units.

So option 3

Notice the Rule states when Rolling for Reserves...
If one is not Rolling for Reserves, why is this Rule being Evoked?

On a similar note can you put the terminators in a drop pod even though its not part of the formation?

Assuming they where purchased as non-dedicated Transports for another Detachment, and there isn't some Rule I am not aware of.

DOOMONYOU wrote:
On a similar note can you put the terminators in a drop pod even though its not part of the formation?

I can't think why not, but they can already teleport anyway so it's a bit of a waste of points (unless you really want them first turn and are prepared to put some other unit in a drop pod to turn up after them)

 karlosovic wrote:

DOOMONYOU wrote:
On a similar note can you put the terminators in a drop pod even though its not part of the formation?

I can't think why not, but they can already teleport anyway so it's a bit of a waste of points (unless you really want them first turn and are prepared to put some other unit in a drop pod to turn up after them)

I feel drop pods are safer (nearly 0% chance of mishap) and that it gets them there 1st turn. The terminators in question would be shooty terminators, with a cyclone or assault cannon in them and combi-weapons to maximize on the twin linked first shoot.

JinxDragon wrote:
Notice the Rule states when Rolling for Reserves...
If one is not Rolling for Reserves, why is this Rule being Evoked?

Good question, and it seems to hi-light yet another example where GW designers have failed to properly cross check their rules.
I'm not sure... what are you saying ?

That you may in fact (or even should) split this formation up and deploy one part in turn 1 via the "Drop Pod Assault" rules... and then roll for the remaining part?

The codex don't seem to suggest this approach... but then they don't deny it either. RAW just doesn't cover every possible circumstance (or even the common ones)

It would be nice if GW proofed what they write before they published it

That being said... If this was the only drop pod in my army.... do I follow the "Drop Pod Assault" rules and deploy the drop pod first turn? and If so - with or without their accompanying team of teleporting terminators?

Or must I hold this unit back from Drop Pod Assault so they may deploy simultaneously with the teleport?

I thought about this last night and I see it as RAI they must deploy all as one and cannot come in automatically on turn 1 due to not all units having drop pod assault. Though There is not clear way to determine this based on RAW.

From a pure Rule as Written perspective,
The Drop Pod Assault Rule would allows us to by-pass Rolling for Reserve completely, so a Rule which modifies that process would also be by-passed.

RAW that seems perfectly valid. Makes a mockery of the ovvious RAI though right?

The only intention I see of the rule is to allow the group to deep strike together if you want to wait for the reserve roll. It still does that, but you have the choice to deploy part of the force early. "Our brothers are entering the fray, they can't wait for us to come all at once! Quickly, let us strike first. The rest will catch up."

Forge that narrative!

JinxDragon wrote:
From a pure Rule as Written perspective,
The Drop Pod Assault Rule would allows us to by-pass Rolling for Reserve completely, so a Rule which modifies that process would also be by-passed.

That rule does not give permission for the termies to deep strike at the same time. I do not understand how you came to that conclusion.

The rule that allows them to appear at the same time demands a reserve roll.

I'm confused what conclusion you think I have come to?
In this situation we have a Rule which changes one part of the Reserve Sequence itself, the requirement that each Unit in the Army make individual Rolls to see if they Arrive that turn. The way it is Written is clear to this fact, it begins by stating When rolling for Reserves and contains conditions that are dependent if that Roll is successful or not. Should another Rule by-pass this roll entirely then it ensures the conditions needed for the original Rule to be evoked can never be met. It really is that simple: If one is not Rolling for Reserves, then how do we apply a Rule based entirely on that Roll?

No, just .. No. You roll for reserves as normal and for this formation one roll is enough. The rest of your army works in a normal way.

So make sure you have another drop pod to get any use from this formation the way it is meant.

Why would a Pod arriving on Turn 1 Roll for Reserves?

Yet you have units whichust arrive turn one. That requirement is one you have ignored entirely, and with no rules support.

If your post is "hywpi" please mark it as such.

The Rule states When Rolling for reserves so how is it being applied to a situation which does not involve a Reserve Roll?

JinxDragon wrote:
Why would a Pod arriving on Turn 1 Roll for Reserves?

You wouldn't roll then, thus the formation would not benefit from their rule if there were no other pods.

They wouldn't be accessing the Thunder-strike Rule even if there was additional Pods....

Care to explain why?

Turn 2 comes, I check if I have anyone in Reserve and I just happen to have the Formation and a third unit there. I proceed to roll once for both of them. If I succeed, they will both arrive, otherwise they stay put. I then proceed to roll for my last unit in Reserve.

According to you, I just broke a rule. I can't quite figure out what it was.

Turn one comes, the pod must arrive. You haven't addressed that, at all.

As it is the only pod in the army, it must arrive then and will not benefit from the Thunderstrike rule. If it wasn't the only pod in the army it would roll for reserves turn 2 etc and benefited from the Thunderstrike rule.

Now that this has been addressed what is the rule I broke?

I think Naw is talking from the perspective of the formation + another drop pod.
One of the drop pods has to come in T1, choose the one not in the formation.
Then use the formation rules, all the formation including the drop pod is still in reserves and then roll...

Seems the only way to benefit from the formation rules.

Someone has checked DPA rule is not only given to a specific detachment etc and is in fact army wide? I don't know that rule so well.
[Edit, Naw got back in first heh]

OK so the conclusion I'm drawing is this:

If you have multiple pods and decide not to deploy the pod in question in the first wave, then when it comes time to roll for it in reserves later in the game, the formation comes together.

If you have only a single pod, or choose the thunderstrike pod in the initial wave, the thunderstrike pod can deploy using the "Drop Pod Assault" rules, and the formation becomes split so the "thunderstrike" rule never has a chance to be applied and the terminators deploy on their own as per normal T2+ reserve roll

?

 karlosovic wrote:
OK so the conclusion I'm drawing is this:

If you have multiple pods and decide not to deploy the pod in question in the first wave, then when it comes time to roll for it in reserves later in the game, the formation comes together.

If you have only a single pod, or choose the thunderstrike pod in the initial wave, the thunderstrike pod can deploy using the "Drop Pod Assault" rules, and the formation becomes split so the "thunderstrike" rule never has a chance to be applied and the terminators deploy on their own as per normal T2+ reserve roll

?

This seems to me to be the sanest way to play it.

Also the "I don't need to convince the other guy it works" way, which for my money, is sometimes more important than RAI, practically speaking.

 karlosovic wrote:
OK so the conclusion I'm drawing is this:

If you have multiple pods and decide not to deploy the pod in question in the first wave, then when it comes time to roll for it in reserves later in the game, the formation comes together.

If you have only a single pod, or choose the thunderstrike pod in the initial wave, the thunderstrike pod can deploy using the "Drop Pod Assault" rules, and the formation becomes split so the "thunderstrike" rule never has a chance to be applied and the terminators deploy on their own as per normal T2+ reserve roll

?

Agreed. And it means the terminators can benefit from the drop pods homing beacon if you take one.

 Kavish wrote:
And it means the terminators can benefit from the drop pods homing beacon if you take one.

Ah that's a good option I hadn't considered