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 Peregrine wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
They've done it for me before. Not by themselves, of course, but they've done most of the work.

I don't see how when GCs are immune to instant death. You're better off spamming lascannons at it instead of a single 200+ point vanquisher shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
Baneblades and Stompas aren't the problem. Say hello to my Tranny C'tan.

Then why do we need a blanket ban on LOW? This is like arguing that because psyker spam armies are too powerful we need to remove the entire psychic phase.

Doesn't Instant Death do d3 wounds to a Gargantuan Creature? If not we were playing it wrong - our bad.

I am fairly sure that is 'removes from play'.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am fairly sure that is 'removes from play'.

Nope, just looked it up. Instant Death does d3 wounds instead of removing it from play.

So, in addition to throttling the bad apples (tranny, warhound, revenant), in order to have a decent environment for competitive 40k play, we will need to have a minimum points requirement for LOW.

I think that LOW have no business in games that are less than 2001 points.

So a tournament circuit will have plenty of 1500, 1850, and 2000 games and the occasional 2000+ game with LOW included.

At point levels lower than 2001, LOWs are such point sinks that list diversity drastically suffers.

LOW as a whole have no room in games under 2001 points, why?

The Tau Orca will be highly sad to hear it, given its a 6HP 12/12/12 plane with his meanest gun being S7. its practically a really big flying devilfish in 300 points.

How exactly does that ruing the under 2000 point experience? its hardly a bigger unit than SM heavy transports in the codex, and less armed.

That's why blanked ruling is bad.

As for "throttling the bad apples (tranny, warhound, revenant), in order to have a decent environment for competitive 40k play", dosen't the same reasoning apply to many non-LoW units anyway? there are bad apples in more than one codex who dumb down the game (see wave serpent, belankor, issodon, gremiore, riptide's IA...), yet none of them is banned.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

col_impact wrote:
There are a few bad apples in the ranks of the LOW. If you want people to broadly accept LOW what's the solution to the bad apples?

I think you and I don't have the same opinions on Lord of War - every game I've played against one I've crushed it. This includes a Warhound Titan, a Revenant Titan, and a TC'tan (the supposed bad-apples).

Sounds like you are only speaking narrowly of your experience with your army. Are all armies capable of handling the bad apples?

Yes. With the caveat that they may need to adapt their list and/or tactics.

Show me lists that can handle a Tranny and that are still TAC lists.

I'm not going to show you every single list ever, but basically:

Any list that includes a pair of Vanquishers with Beast Hunter Shells (which can be every Imperial list) or a Warhound Titan (which can be every Imperial list). I'm generally unfamiliar with xenos lists, but I know they have access to their own D-weapons

Only D weapon Orks have is the Stompa's sword. :I Teh sadness.

 BoomWolf wrote:
LOW as a whole have no room in games under 2001 points, why?

The Tau Orca will be highly sad to hear it, given its a 6HP 12/12/12 plane with his meanest gun being S7. its practically a really big flying devilfish in 300 points.

How exactly does that ruing the under 2000 point experience? its hardly a bigger unit than SM heavy transports in the codex, and less armed.

What are the current rules for the Orca? In the books I have it's a 400pt model. Either way, I don't think anyone is accusing LoW choices to be balanced, so naturally you have some that are awesome and others that suck. I honestly can't speak for the Orca because I've never played with or against one or even spent any time looking at its rules. Just appears to be a giant transport (57 models or 6 battlesuits).

That's why blanked ruling is bad.

I don't disagree, but it is by far the easiest.

yet none of them is banned.

The "well LoW is fine because blah isn't banned" isn't a great argument. A lot of people who don't like LoW don't like those other things you mentioned either.

Also, I think talking about "banning" is a bit much. I'm sure there's some people who outright ban stuff, but I think for most of us it's not so much a "ban" as "I don't really want to play against that in a standard <2000pt game, can you come up with another option please".

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
LOW as a whole have no room in games under 2001 points, why?

The Tau Orca will be highly sad to hear it, given its a 6HP 12/12/12 plane with his meanest gun being S7. its practically a really big flying devilfish in 300 points.

How exactly does that ruing the under 2000 point experience? its hardly a bigger unit than SM heavy transports in the codex, and less armed.

What are the current rules for the Orca? In the books I have it's a 400pt model. Either way, I don't think anyone is accusing LoW choices to be balanced, so naturally you have some that are awesome and others that suck. I honestly can't speak for the Orca because I've never played with or against one or even spent any time looking at its rules. Just appears to be a giant transport (57 models or 6 battlesuits).

That's why blanked ruling is bad.

I don't disagree, but it is by far the easiest.

yet none of them is banned.

The "well LoW is fine because blah isn't banned" isn't a great argument. A lot of people who don't like LoW don't like those other things you mentioned either.

Also, I think talking about "banning" is a bit much. I'm sure there's some people who outright ban stuff, but I think for most of us it's not so much a "ban" as "I don't really want to play against that in a standard <2000pt game, can you come up with another option please".

Sure people would agree, but then some will still moan when you change your list, put in what you like using, and your opponent bitches about it as they don't like it. There is only so much goodwill before if feels like someone is taking the mickey to shield their own silly ego,

On another note i am going to get to use my knight next week, we found a willing opponent

I suspect the moment we start our game everyone will be looking over at what is going on for obvious reasons, and a few are going to eat their hats in the process. Given the fact my opponent is using 2 wraithknights, its going to get interesting and if my knight does not do too well there is the "I told you so" speech to get out

If you want to prove that the Knight isn't overpowered, you should be fine against Eldar. If you were playing against Tyranids you might have a hard time convincing anyone that it's not overpowered

I feel like just talking to your opponent about what kind of game they want to play at first would solve so many problems.

If the guy get mad about no wanting to play against his titan, you probably should play them anyways.

40k is about having fun. Make sure that is your goal.


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 Art_of_war wrote:

On another note i am going to get to use my knight next week, we found a willing opponent

I suspect the moment we start our game everyone will be looking over at what is going on for obvious reasons, and a few are going to eat their hats in the process. Given the fact my opponent is using 2 wraithknights, its going to get interesting and if my knight does not do too well there is the "I told you so" speech to get out

that sounds like it will be a fun game. let us know how it goes. perhaps a batrep?

Yeah I would never play vs unbound or the crazy lords of war

The big guys are really only balanced at all in HUGE point games where your army is big enough to put out enough shots to kill him in one turn.

It's kind of like the guy who takes the all marines in drop pods with melta and flamers. You bring your all-comers list with a mix of stuff and all he has to do is alpha strike your AP3 and boom he wins. Cheese tactics gonna cheese, that's just what flyer lists/spam lists/alpha strike lists/whatever are designed to do. Oh, you brought only enough AT to take down the number of tanks you usually see? I have 20 wounds worth of riptides. The top list at any time is really just the King Cheese in 40k, just find players who aren't interested in win at all costs.

Here's a tip: if a person you play against goes off on a rant about "oh, what, so I should just play a COMPETITIVE game to NOT WIN? That's STUPID!" Then don't play them again.

 Vash108 wrote:
I feel like just talking to your opponent about what kind of game they want to play at first would solve so many problems.

If the guy get mad about no wanting to play against his titan, you probably should play them anyways.

40k is about having fun. Make sure that is your goal.quote]

Yeah, I actually frequently turn down games, mainly because I don't wanna unpack models just to fight a cheese list. But yeah, if the opponent is someone you'd wanna play against, they would respect you not wanting to fight a Lord of War.

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah I would never play vs unbound or the crazy lords of war

The big guys are really only balanced at all in HUGE point games where your army is big enough to put out enough shots to kill him in one turn.

It's kind of like the guy who takes the all marines in drop pods with melta and flamers. You bring your all-comers list with a mix of stuff and all he has to do is alpha strike your AP3 and boom he wins. Cheese tactics gonna cheese, that's just what flyer lists/spam lists/alpha strike lists/whatever are designed to do. Oh, you brought only enough AT to take down the number of tanks you usually see? I have 20 wounds worth of riptides. The top list at any time is really just the King Cheese in 40k, just find players who aren't interested in win at all costs.

Here's a tip: if a person you play against goes off on a rant about "oh, what, so I should just play a COMPETITIVE game to NOT WIN? That's STUPID!" Then don't play them again.

Isn't this pretty much saying to 'thay guy' 'you shouldn't play what you want so that I can play what I want'?

 Vash108 wrote:
I feel like just talking to your opponent about what kind of game they want to play at first would solve so many problems.

If the guy get mad about no wanting to play against his titan, you probably should play them anyways.

40k is about having fun. Make sure that is your goal.

Yeah, I actually frequently turn down games, mainly because I don't wanna unpack models just to fight a cheese list. But yeah, if the opponent is someone you'd wanna play against, they would respect you not wanting to fight a Lord of War.


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LordBlades wrote:


Isn't this pretty much saying to 'thay guy' 'you shouldn't play what you want so that I can play what I want'?

Yes and no. I mean, it is about having fun, but if someone's idea of having fun is bringing obnoxious stuff that you can't even have a remote chance against, why play that?

 krodarklorr wrote:

Yes and no. I mean, it is about having fun, but if someone's idea of having fun is bringing obnoxious stuff that you can't even have a remote chance against, why play that?

You can also reverse the question: if somebody's idea of having fun is building a take all comers list without putting any thought into synergy or how it would perform, why play that?

Don't get me wrong, I firmly believe finding common ground with your opponent is the best choice, but when you don't I believe the fault is not only of the guy with the 'cheesy' list/LoW/whatever.

LordBlades wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Yes and no. I mean, it is about having fun, but if someone's idea of having fun is bringing obnoxious stuff that you can't even have a remote chance against, why play that?

You can also reverse the question: if somebody's idea of having fun is building a take all comers list without putting any thought into synergy or how it would perform, why play that?

Don't get me wrong, I firmly believe finding commin ground with your opponent is the best choice, but when you don't I believe the fault is not only of the guy with the 'cheesy' list/Low/whatever.

Well, yes you have to find common ground, but then how do you do that with someone wanting to field a Stompa at 1500 points?

You're just as welcome to say "I really don't want to play your Stompa" as he is to say "I really want to use my Stompa."

If you've both drawn lines here that neither will cross, shake his hand and tell him to enjoy his game with someone else, then go look for another game.

If you can agree to play 1 game with and 1 game without it, great news!

 krodarklorr wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Yes and no. I mean, it is about having fun, but if someone's idea of having fun is bringing obnoxious stuff that you can't even have a remote chance against, why play that?

You can also reverse the question: if somebody's idea of having fun is building a take all comers list without putting any thought into synergy or how it would perform, why play that?

Don't get me wrong, I firmly believe finding commin ground with your opponent is the best choice, but when you don't I believe the fault is not only of the guy with the 'cheesy' list/Low/whatever.

Well, yes you have to find common ground, but then how do you do that with someone wanting to field a Stompa at 1500 points?

Now I'm pretty new and I don't have the Ork codex available atm to check out a Stompa, but are there really no armies that can field a decent counter to a Stompa at 1500?

LordBlades wrote:


Now I'm pretty new and I don't have the Ork codex available atm to check out a Stompa, but are there really no armies that can field a decent counter to a Stompa at 1500?

If you read this thread, to some people it's not a matter of not having a counter to the unit, it's a matter of not wanting to play against it.

LordBlades wrote:

Now I'm pretty new and I don't have the Ork codex available atm to check out a Stompa, but are there really no armies that can field a decent counter to a Stompa at 1500?

Tyranids. There's very little I could do to it while not in combat. And even so, D weapon.

I'm pretty sure that a trio of carnifexes will have no trouble tearing it apart in a single round of combat. You even get your armor against most wounds from that D-weapon.

 Jidmah wrote:
I'm pretty sure that a trio of carnifexes will have no trouble tearing it apart in a single round of combat. You even get your armor against most wounds from that D-weapon.

I'm pretty sure that weapon is AP1.

LordBlades wrote:
Now I'm pretty new and I don't have the Ork codex available atm to check out a Stompa, but are there really no armies that can field a decent counter to a Stompa at 1500?

That's not the issue, I've personally played against a Stompa with hardly any Anti-tank and won.
Simply by destroying the other 600 points of Orks and using Line of Sight to win on Victory Points
Even though it was 'entertaining' I wouldn't want to play against it too often; perhaps one in five or ten games.

That's sound judgement. given you have played against it before.

The people who never tried are the ones driving me nuts, especially when they come out with things like "there is no possible way to beat that without cheese", yet I beaten such things multiple times without cheezing, and I know many others.

Honestly, most LoW, on the competitive level, are not really worth it.

 BoomWolf wrote:
That's sound judgement. given you have played against it before.

The people who never tried are the ones driving me nuts, especially when they come out with things like "there is no possible way to beat that without cheese", yet I beaten such things multiple times without cheezing, and I know many others.

Honestly, most LoW, on the competitive level, are not really worth it.

I've played my friends Stompa a couple times, and have won easily. Even in 1500 point games, my necrons tore it to shred, as well as the rest of his army. My point is that if someone for some reason doesn't have a decent way to kill it, or at least fight back, why should they be forced to play it if they don't want to?

Don't this logic applies to anything else in the game?

"I don't want to face flyers as I got no anti-air"
"I don't want to face tanks as I got no high S weapons"
"I don't want to face TeQ armies because I dont have any low AP"

For the price of the LoW, most of them are not impressively durable, and a TAC army SHOULD be able to at least take a crack at them.
If your army cannot even try to compete, it usually means that you are playing a weak, weak list. and at that point you are punishing me by giving me an easy game no matter what I play, as long as my list is solid.

Sure, not everyone's idea of fun is the ultra-competetive level of 5 riptides/WS spam/whatever, but if you bring me a 1500 point army with two meltaguns across as your entire anti-tank options, you are just being absurd here.
At 1000 points, I have at the very least 6 meltas on board, and in my case they are deepstriking. most LoW are withing the realm of 1-2 turns takedown before I start counting the fact I probably have some extra high S or EMP shots from ralai, railguns, ect... and that's when I have no clue what I'm facing.
And my lists are far from optemised, I just know that tanks are trouble and require specialist guns, so I stock on them just in case.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I'm pretty sure that a trio of carnifexes will have no trouble tearing it apart in a single round of combat. You even get your armor against most wounds from that D-weapon.

I'm pretty sure that weapon is AP1.

Point taken. I actually never bothered to check the AP on it. Still, it has 4 attacks which have to hit on 4+, usually resulting in 2d3 wounds. Something that shouldn't scare a couple of monstrous creatures. Sure, it will kill one on the roll of 6, but there are bunch of models out there which can do the same or better (warboss with 'eadwompa comes to mind). Since it's just I1 you might even kill it before it strikes back.

The stompa from the codex is probably one of the tamest super-heavies out there - if you can't handle it, a pair of land raiders or your usual necron AV13 spam would have crushed you as well.

The blunt fact is GW can put the LoW label on a time expired taco and it becomes part of the official game.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
That's sound judgement. given you have played against it before.

The people who never tried are the ones driving me nuts, especially when they come out with things like "there is no possible way to beat that without cheese", yet I beaten such things multiple times without cheezing, and I know many others.

Honestly, most LoW, on the competitive level, are not really worth it.

I've played my friends Stompa a couple times, and have won easily. Even in 1500 point games, my necrons tore it to shred, as well as the rest of his army. My point is that if someone for some reason doesn't have a decent way to kill it, or at least fight back, why should they be forced to play it if they don't want to?

They shouldn't, but then why should the guy with the Stompa be forced to play without it if he doesn't want to? Maybe he doesn't have a way to field a decent army without the Stompa

LordBlades wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
That's sound judgement. given you have played against it before.

The people who never tried are the ones driving me nuts, especially when they come out with things like "there is no possible way to beat that without cheese", yet I beaten such things multiple times without cheezing, and I know many others.

Honestly, most LoW, on the competitive level, are not really worth it.

I've played my friends Stompa a couple times, and have won easily. Even in 1500 point games, my necrons tore it to shreds, as well as the rest of his army. My point is that if someone for some reason doesn't have a decent way to kill it, or at least fight back, why should they be forced to play it if they don't want to?

They shouldn't, but then why should the guy with the Stompa be forced to play without it if he doesn't want to? Maybe he doesn't have a way to field a decent army without the Stompa

Well, that's a whole other issue in itself. I'm just saying that I never have an issue declining a game if the opponent is playing something that I don't feel like dealing with. Like, if someone had a Revenant Titan, I'd be like "Naaaaaaah, I'm good."