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2014/08/18 20:05:51
Subject: Mors non est finis , CSM and Daemons in 7th edition Tactica thread
This thread is for discussing Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons in 7th edition, what's best, what you are trying out and why you should play Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons. I don't think there should be a seperate thread for either of these as both compliment each other so well hat personally I feel if you are playing the armies and doing solo Chaos Space Marines or solo Chaos Daemons, you're limiting your options severely of course that is just my opinion , please feel free to discuss the forces of Chaos.
If you have a combo, excellent unit choice such as a death star, great tactic, dirty tactic, or advice PM me the information and I will add it and give credit where I can in the original op.
Why should you play Chaos and Chaos Daemons? Because they're the best, we've got some of the best looking models, the coolest stories, and some of the most variety of any army out there. Most armies have super similar play styles or one or two play styles that dominate. Chaos has unlimited. Want to play a Mechanized Force with Walkers that are encased with Daemons that rampage ahead of Zombies? We got that. Want to play small but elite and powerful forces that deep strike in and devastate the opponent? Chaos. Want to play a unending swarm of unearthly monsters that never end, Chaos.
Love conversions? Chaos is one of the best armies to play if you love to convert models from the beautiful to the grotesque. Daemons can be literally anything and it's appropriate to have variety they all appear differently, this means the range of figures available to you for easy and quick conversions is way more varied than for Space Marines, a great example is using Dark Elves as stand ins for Slaanesh etc.. You're not just limited to the 40k range of figures, Warhammer Fantasy has excellent figures to choose from, another example is using a dragon from Fantasy as your Heldrake.
Most of all is the unique nature of the troops your going to find, heavy hitters, damage dealers, and swift killers are all represented. From tanks to grubs, Chaos has the options to let you mold the armies to your personal play style and let's you craft your army accordingly with how you want to represent it. They are the end when it comes to villians, their the villians of villians or maybe not.
Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons are naturally battle brothers in 7th edition now. Here are some big changes that have happened in Seventh that affect both armies.
Chaos Daemons can in fact ride in Land Raiders, unfortunately this doesn't help that much as with a 10 model limit and a 10 model minimum squad size you'll be hard pressed to figure a way to get a Herald and a Squad in there at the same time but the suggestion of using Heralds of Khorne on Blood Thrones to give them bonuses seems pretty keen.
Now that is unless your opponents allow Forgeworld stuff for Chaos that can give more options as for transports. You can though take a "superunit / mod squad" of 4 Heralds of the same time such as Khorne, then another Herald for a total of 5 HQs stick them in the Landraider and watch it get meltaed on the first turn because that always happens inevitably when you spend more than 500 points on a unit.
Chaos Space Marines, Crimson Slaughter, Black Legion, both got bonuses in that we can in fact have Objective Secured Chosen or Possessed. The latter is not that great. However it is actually possible to play an all Daemon army with Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons allied.
We got a huge boost in our utility unit Chaos Sorcerers, getting spell familiar and access to Sanctic gives us the ability to get Hammer Hand, Gate of Infinity, and Sanctuary , and be able to cast it with minimal risk of Perils as we can use 1 dice to cast most at 75% or 2 dice for a 90% chance of success means less Warp Charge needed.
Chaos Sorcerers especially got a huge power upgrade, with access to Telepathy and the two spells of that which are way over powered now, Shrouding ( Eldar aren't the only army that can have 2+ jink saves now) and Invisibility. Getting Access to Gate of Infinity a Warp Charge 1 spell that lets you bounce around the board with Obliterators or give Hammerhand to a unit of Terminators w/ Power Mauls and MoK isn't to shabby either.
With the new Helbrute Data Slates, Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons, just became one of the best armies to go fully Mechanized. Depending on your area and how many formations you are allowed to take in your local tourney or player scene you can field anywhere from 11 to 15 Walkers in a army and still have only spent around 1100 to 1400 points. ( Mayhem Pack (3) , Helcult (1) , Murderpack (5), Mauler Fiend (3), Elite (3) that's if your local's okay with Datalsates. Most tournaments are looking the 1 Primary and either 1 ally or 1 Formation.
Heldrakes, they've gotten a big nerf bomb. Don't worry I'm sure in six months it'll change back.
So we now can actually summon troops and Daemon Princes w/ Spell Familiars can be one of the best summoners in the game. Or you could take a Crimson Slaughter Unmarked Sorcerer with Prophet of the Voices and a Spell familiar which is the best summoning unit in the game.
Overall all our Walkers got better with a change to the chart, plus gaining Hammer of Wrath. Maulerfiends are absolute beasts now with tendrils(or is it tentacles?).
Another big change is there is no longer the Primary only detachment requirement for 4 Heralds, so a Chaos Space Marine Army allied with Chaos Daemons can in fact have 6 HQs, 2 from Primary and 4 from Allied.
So let's talk about Chaos , Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons. Oh and uh Belakor. That guy.
So let's discuss Chaos
Great Units to Use Chaos Space Marine Sorcerer w/ Force Weapon, Spell Familiar, Level 3 , Bike , AoDG (Telepathy chosen)
5 Chaos Space Marine Bike Squadron Mark of Nurgle, 2 Meltaguns, Power Fist, Boon
360ish points
Psychic Shriek, Invisibility and Shrouding or even Terrify. It's not a complicated thing. Shrouding gives this squad a 2+ jink save.
Murderpack w/ 5 Autocannons w/ Invisibility. Have fun with that. Add Missile Launchers to 2 or 3 for a unit that fires off 10 ST7 and 2 to 3 ST8 shots, oh and any glances you get to pick the crazed result. Optional take it as a formation with Chaos Daemons and give it Forewarning with Divination, this unit with 10 twin linked Auto Cannons can deal easily with those pesky fliers.
500 + points
Chaos Daemons
Herald of Slaanesh w/ 1 Greater Reward, Lash of Despair, Steed, Level 2 Psyker (Telepathy or Telepathy/Maelfic)
13 Seekers of Slaanesh with Heartseeker , Icon
320ish
If you are wondering why?
A Herald of Slaanesh auto get's a ST6 Beam w/ Rending, Warp Charge 1, Get's Psychic Shriek from telepathy which hits on a 2+ with a reroll of hitting on a 6, and then get's to shoot 2D6 Shots at ST4. It will shred most units with ST6 Beam and a Psychic Shriek, then get to shoot at left overs with 2D6. Or fire at the rear armour of tanks since it outflanks. Also you can go the Malefic Route choose Summoning and Summon Daemons into your opponents deployment zone. Like Flamers of Tzeentch that scatter 1d6 because of it's icon or get Sacrifice or Possession.
Alternatively
Herald Of Slaanesh w/ Steed, Level 2 Telepathy for auto Psychic Shriek and Roll to get Invisibility or Shrouding / Terrify, Beguilement 115
13 Seekers of Slaanesh w/ Heartseeker
300ish
For a Little over 300 you get Psychic Shriek a chance at Invisibilty , Terrify or Shrouding, then get to outflank or Charge 2nd Turn. Definitively. Oh and you reroll 60+ attacks, that have rending. Short of a armoured foe like a Knight it can kill every HtH unit in the game.
Daemon Prince , Wings, Nurgle, Biomancy, Black Mace , Armour , rolling Biomancy to get Iron Arm or Innervate then you just fly at stuff and kill it.
250 +
Courtesy of Shuppet 10x Chaos Bikers w Mark of Slaanesh, Icon of Excess, 2x Melta Gun, Combi-Melta & Power Fist (on the Champ)
I also enjoy a Gift of Mutation on the champ but thats far from necessary
320 points gives you 10 T5 Wounds with 5+ FNP (this is tankier than T6 to almost everything in the game), 41 attacks on the charge at I5 not including the Hammer of Wrath hits, and, I generally support this with a Khorne Lord on a Juggernaut, I generally like to use a demon relic often Black Mace + Powerfist.
Nurgling Infested Landraider - Courtesy of Jakl277 Landraider chosen as a normal Transport from Chaos Space Marine
Load it up with Nurglings and a optional Herald or 2
Vomit out Nurglings from an assault vehicle
Points : 300++
A note about this : This is one of the few ways to have a good Daemon unit in a Chaos Land Raider with a Herald if you are not taking a optional Landraider Variant from Forgeworld. A Herald with Lesser , 6s make attacks 2+ poison for 10 points
For example :
Herald of Nurgle : lesser locus, Greater , 2 levels of Biomancy
8 Nurgling Swarms
245
40 Attacks on the Charge, Plus a Template weapon that is poison 4+, 6s equal 2+ poison to wounds, and a model that could possibly gain Iron Arm or Enervate with a weapon that causes instant death.
Landraider 230 + (Dirge Caster is probably a good idea)
This isn't counting the fact that you have a Landraider. This is good either way. Good luck dealing with 32 wounds that may have Feel No Pain and It Will not Die. Not to great against vehicles, but also Landraider.
Trick Plays and Surprise Tactics
Charge Everything!!
Spoiler:
It requires : Murder Pack , Some sort of buff Spell either, Invisibility, or Forewarning, etc...
The Murder Pack is a Vehicle Squadron , this is important to know because of these rules
Abandoning Squadron-mates
Over the course of the battle, it is likely that one or more members of a squadron will suffer an Immobilised result, preventing it from moving. If a member of a squadron is Immobilised, the rest of the squadron are permitted to ‘abandon’ it. To do so, the rest of the squadron must move out of unit coherency with it; treat the Immobilised model(s) as a separate unit from then on for all rules and victory conditions.
The other is that if a Murder Pack Member is glanced , you are allowed to pick the result. Pick the 1st result. Then move out of Coherency because it's immobilized. This also comes into play with coherency and charging.
Squadrons in the Movement Phase
The vehicles in a squadron must maintain coherency, just like models in ordinary units, but vehicles in a squadron need only remain within 4" horizontally
The other is
Walkers follow all normal rules, you can make a disorganized charge with a Murder Pack.
Why would you do this, well for one thing if it get's overwatched and immobilized it's just ignored the charge still happens because it becomes seperate from that unit. The other thing is that 4 inches.
I don't know if you have seen the bases but the bases for Helbrutes are around 3 Inches across total a little less maybe.
The Murderpack is the largest Vehicle Squadron that can charge ( I believe this still true ) in the game.
This is what it looks like
3+4+3+4+3+4+3+4+3
For total of 31 inches line across if you wish or you can half that to maintain some coherency or whichever.
Regardless, simply make a disorganized charge on up to 3 to 5 different targets, then watch your Murderpack Tarpit your opponent as they try to kill all 5 Walkers with Invisibility or ones that have It will not Die.
The best Formation is probably 3 up front 2 in the rear in order to ensure coherence but you have 4 inches of coherency double what other units have and you have a huge base to work with and now you get to have you and your opponent enjoy the wonderful rules of multiple assaults.
Boxing in your opponents units with summoning
Spoiler:
One of the interesting things about 40k is the movement rules. If you are dealing with a fast moving unit, box them in.
It's actually rather easy to make a box, depending on the size of the squad and how spread out they are. Space Marines especially like to combat squad Space Marine Bikers and other units. Daemonettes can still run after being summoning, running 1D6 + 3, simply summon 1 or more units near a unit you wish to box in and then run a 10 Man Daemonette squad can in fact make Line, with 9 inches being the furthest away you can roll and fleet allows you to get more than average distance. With Icons etc.. you should easily be able to get with in range to box in the unit you wish to.
Remember
Models in the Way
A model cannot move within 1" of an enemy model unless they are charging into close combat in the Assault phase, and can never move or pivot (see below) through another model (friend or foe) at any time. To move past, they must go around.
Some "Death" Star units
Prospero Star
Spoiler:
Requires a allying with oneself or a good roll on Sanctic
Simply roll up Telepathy for Ahriman, take Psychic Shriek, he can fire it 3 times because of his staff , Roll up Gate of Infinity for the Chaos Sorcerer. Teleport around the board Psychic Shrieking units to death and shooting them with Obliterators.
General Tactics
Dealing with Flyers , Flying Monstrous Creatures and Vehicles
Spoiler:
Aegis Defense Line or other Fortification w/ Quad Gun , low cost easy comes with intercept
Chaos Space Marines
Havoc Squad w/ 4 Flakk Missile Launchers : Pricey, but the only actual unit in the codex that comes with a weapon that has Skyfire. Minimal 100+ points. It's actually cheaper to just buy 4 autocannons and allly in or get a prescience on these guys. Put them with a Aegis w/ Quad that should be enough hopefully, but Flying Monstrous Creature spam is something to think about.
Murderpack w/ Reaper Autos , Ten Twinlinked ST7 shots , it's good just overall but it's a great option for like everything they'll also be able to tear to shreds a FMC that get's grounded near them.
Heldrakes w/ or without Autocannons, which you can't fire the breathe at fliers anyway but you can autocannon them and swoop them.
Flying Monstrous Creatures / Daemon Princes can swoop attack them if in Swoop Mode or fire a Psychic Attack at them if they have that available to them. If your going Daemon Prince w/ Wings route they do have access to psychic attacks that they can target fliers with if in swoop mode.
Chaos Daemons
Soul Grinders , comes with a base weapon that has the ability to fire at targets, plus is one of the best units in the game , it can be a low cost option.
Flying Tzeentch Daemons come with Flickering Fire , can swoop attack them, and some times manage to get fire off a Flickering at rear armour.
Flying Lash Prince w/ Biomancy, 2D6ST 9 shots if it get's Iron Arm. It'll destroy any flier most of the time.
Another option is that Chaos Space Marines especially can force Grounding Checks twice now before the Assault phase so don't forget that. You can fire shooting in the Psychic Phase to force a check, then force another check in the Shooting phase. It's a good tactic and Flickering Fire w/ the Icon to make it ST6 on a buffed Squad of Horrors or Tzeentch Herald is a great way to kill them straight up. Precognition especially is a great thing.
So despite having 1 Flying Vehicle, FMC, and one unit that has a weapon that has Skyfire you do have some options versus the Flyer Spam. Necron Crescent Wing is annoying and dealing with 3 or more Fliers is going to be a bitch to well anyone ,but if flyers are in heavy use in your area these are some options.
Dealing with Imperial Knights when your using Chaos Daemons
Spoiler:
Imperial Knights choose their shield facing before the game begins and subsequently during the shooting phase. This means that during the Psychic Phase you most certainly can summon behind them, or otherwise get around to which facing side or rear that they do not have a shield
Here's 10 ways to kill a knight.
1. Biomancy Lash Prince or Lord Of Change: 2d6ST shots w/ lash if it get's Iron Arm these can be ST9. It Flies, it can also Deep Strike behind to rear facing. Lord's of Change come with Flickering Fire.
2. A large unit of Plaguebearers can glance it to death ; Use the Psychic Spell Miasma to reduce it's initiave by D3 and it's Weapon Skill.
3. You can actually summon or purchase Heralds on Seeker Chariots w/ Sacrifice. These charge at 2D6 ST4 RENDING attacks, then an additional 4 Rending Attacks .
4. Charge it with Screamers, whom you can actually summon units of 3.
5. Deep Strike a Herald of Tzeentch behind it with Exalted Locus of Conjuration. Fire off Flickering Fire for 2d6 to 4D6 ST6 shots to rear armour.
6. Deep Strike a unit of Pink Horrors behind it and shoot it with Flickering Fire.
7. Cast Acquisence ( -5 Initiative) or a Charge with Fiends ( Also - on Initiave) or anything that reduces it's initiative and charge it with Soul Grinder
8. Cast Misfortune (Easily taken by choosing Divination with Tzeentch Heralds, Plus it gives you the ability to Prescience) on it and shoot it to death with Flickering Fire ST5/6 Flickering Fires.
9. Simply Charge him with Skarbrand
10. My Favourite : Charge it with Slaanesh Chaos Furies led by a Herald of Slaanesh on a Steed w/ Beguilement and Greater Aether Blade possibly, They're ST4 , Ini 4, Rending Attacks. It's a 165 points for 20 of these things and they get Hammer of Wrath attacks that are rending as well that hit automatically. You can also just stick a Herald of Slaanesh with a Greater Locus and they'll be +5 to initiative. Or a Beguilement , Heralds can keep up with Furies by using steeds or just bare bones the Chaos Furies.
Basically you have multiple ways to deal with Imperial Knights, the thing to remember is tha t you have multiple Psychic Spells that reduce initiative or Weapon Skill and Access to units that reduce initiative as well. You also can summon units who's attacks have Armourbane and AP2. Most shooting is done in the Psychic Phase which with clever movement or summoning you can easily get to rear facing. You have access to a Psychic Discipline that includes Misfortune making all attacks rending.
The easiest and quickest way I've found is simply deep strike a unit of Pink Horrors behind it with a Herald with a Exalted Locus or just a Herald witha Exalted Locus deepstrikes behind it or is summoned behind it remember summoning as a 12 inch range, simply move up to it and summon a unit behind it that can fire off a Level 2 Flickering for 3D6 ST5/6. ST5 can get Penetrating hits on Rear Armour, but unfortunately cannot auto destroy it so your stuck iwth glancing it to death but it's pretty easy when it's ST6.
So yeah they really shouldn't give you any trouble. Multiples can be annoying , but you can summon small units that have 3 attacks with armour bane.
Even with it's 4+ invunerable, you can very well glance it to death with misfortune or straight up penetrate and kill it with Misfortune and Flickering
This message was edited 17 times. Last update was at 2014/08/21 11:51:12
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
2014/08/19 16:56:42
Subject: Mors non est finis , CSM and Daemons in 7th edition Tactica thread
Eh, I don't feel like CSM has anything that my daemons really need. I thought there might be, I have some cultists, plague marines, heldrake, black mace prince. Though I find that I just don't need them. All my CSM stuff is more of "I want to try something silly"
The tactics for both armies are so vastly different that I do feel they should have different threads.
I've recently started building a CSM force to ally into my daemons, chiefly because I want to run a multiple daemon engines list, with as much AV as possible, so Heldrake and Maulerfiend were top of the list.
I've since decided to expand further because CSM give daemons something they conspicuously lack, which is actual, shooting phase shooting.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Azreal13 wrote: I've recently started building a CSM force to ally into my daemons, chiefly because I want to run a multiple daemon engines list, with as much AV as possible, so Heldrake and Maulerfiend were top of the list.
I've since decided to expand further because CSM give daemons something they conspicuously lack, which is actual, shooting phase shooting.
Which is your primary Chaos Space Marine or Chaos Daemon?
I can't go on enough about having 4 Havocs w/ Autocannons or a Squad of Obliterators , plus Obliterators being Daemons can gain the Grimoire or if by chance you roll the +1 they get that. Also even though they are not "daemons of" if you deep strike them near a Icon they scatter only the 1d6 , or with cursed earth up they get the +1.
Plus taking a Daemon Prince in your HQ isn't a bad choice either. The tough one is the troops selection.
As someone mentioned a great compliment and just all around great unit is Chaos Space Marine lord w/ Chaos Bikers gives a great anti tank unit, plus being slaanesh you cna give him a Steed to outflank them. So great for coming in on the sides to take on some heavy tank.
Noise Marines are just flat out amaze balls as basic troops and you just need one troop choice plus the FAQ allows for a 6 man to have 1 Blaster which is pretty great.
My top Choices would be
Chaos Space Marine Sorcerer w/ Spell Familiar , w/ Bike or Terminator Armour accompanying Obliterators or Terminators.
Chaos Space Marine Bike Squads are excellent especially w/ a CSM Sorcerer or Warlord w/ Steed to outflank.
Troops
Noise Marines - Definitely top choice, ignoring cover
Terminators are excellent drop in choices for anti tank.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/19 22:41:27
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
2014/08/19 22:23:51
Subject: Re:Mors non est finis , CSM and Daemons in 7th edition Tactica thread
Just a few tactical thoughts on good/effective units (situation dependent)
CSM Daemon Prince of Nurgle. The nerf to FMC's in not being able to charge in the same turn as changing flight modes was a bit of a concern but with the ability to Jink and having Shrouding to give a 2+ cover in the open you can glide around reasonably safely (unless obviously you're facing a lot of ignores cover weaponry) and charge at will. OK, if you're jinking you're limited to snap shots but if you're taking the Nurgle DP you're looking for some CC action, and Biomancy powers such as Iron Arm, Warp Speed and Endurance are preferable over psychic shooting. As for a weapon to hit things with, it's the Black Mace every time. Oh, and take a Spell Familiar - they are such good value in 7th.
15 - 20 invisible Flesh Hounds with a Juggernaut Herald and/or Karanak is so dangerous (and fun). Fast, lots of attacks and hard to kill.
Screamers of Tzeentch are superb for Maelstrom missions due to their speed. Even in low point games units of 3 screamers are great. With their turbo-boost range it's easy to grab an unattended objective seemingly far away. They can jink with impunity as well due to having no shooting attacks, if you can get shrouding on them it's a 2+ cover in the open like the Nurgle DP.
Be'lakor. Because Be'lakor. He really is that good. Just play him carefully and don't go throwing him up the board on his own and expect him to live as he WILL be a priority target. Again he can benefit from Jink & Shrouded. He is manouverable enough to invis Flesh Hounds (see above) who are running around the board and you can surround him with Screamers and shroud them if you need to protect them for a turn. He's not bad in CC either and can fairly reliably trash AV14, just be aware of presenting a target after the CC is over.
Conjuring has been discussed a lot but the only thing I would mention is bring a Portalglyph too. If you pop out a 1 horror unit who then rolls Possession it's priceless. If you do cast Possession (using whatever unit) I'd recommend a Keeper of Secrets as they are tasty in CC, are fast with Fleet and the additional Run inches, and can charge the following turn. If you get them in the right place your opponent has to deal with it (and ignore other units) or get sliced up.
Heldrakes. Yes they did get nerfed but if you manouver them well they are still great units against MEQ heavy armies. Not so good if you're facing a lot of Terminators.
Soulgrinders. Great value and resilient with AV13. Take 3 and Deep Strike them on an Icon for giggles.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/20 08:03:32
2014/08/19 22:52:51
Subject: Mors non est finis , CSM and Daemons in 7th edition Tactica thread
I think if you are running low end conjuring with Chaos Space Marine Sorcerers on Bikes that's a good solid choice. Bouncing around like that is pretty great, unfortunately you can get stuff like Sacrifice that well honestly hurts you by losing a guy.
I'll also add that while you don't get a lot of "anti" air, you do get basically two phases of shooting to force grounding checks. Once at the end of the Psychic phase which you can force with Flickering , and again with CSM with autocannons, then you get to charge. Plus you have FMC of your own that can have skyfire. Previously you'd just get that one phase now with the changes to grounding but now two chances then getting the chance to charge in the assault is pretty boss.
I've not had to many problems with FMC.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/19 23:00:43
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
2014/08/19 23:02:35
Subject: Mors non est finis , CSM and Daemons in 7th edition Tactica thread
Azreal13 wrote: I've recently started building a CSM force to ally into my daemons, chiefly because I want to run a multiple daemon engines list, with as much AV as possible, so Heldrake and Maulerfiend were top of the list.
I've since decided to expand further because CSM give daemons something they conspicuously lack, which is actual, shooting phase shooting.
Which is your primary Chaos Space Marine or Chaos Daemon?
Spoiler:
I can't go on enough about having 4 Havocs w/ Autocannons or a Squad of Obliterators , plus Obliterators being Daemons can gain the Grimoire or if by chance you roll the +1 they get that. Also even though they are not "daemons of" if you deep strike them near a Icon they scatter only the 1d6 , or with cursed earth up they get the +1.
Plus taking a Daemon Prince in your HQ isn't a bad choice either. The tough one is the troops selection.
As someone mentioned a great compliment and just all around great unit is Chaos Space Marine lord w/ Chaos Bikers gives a great anti tank unit, plus being slaanesh you cna give him a Steed to outflank them. So great for coming in on the sides to take on some heavy tank.
Noise Marines are just flat out amaze balls as basic troops and you just need one troop choice plus the FAQ allows for a 6 man to have 1 Blaster which is pretty great.
My top Choices would be
Chaos Space Marine Sorcerer w/ Spell Familiar , w/ Bike or Terminator Armour accompanying Obliterators or Terminators.
Chaos Space Marine Bike Squads are excellent especially w/ a CSM Sorcerer or Warlord w/ Steed to outflank.
Troops
Noise Marines - Definitely top choice, ignoring cover
Terminators are excellent drop in choices for anti tank.
Daemons are primary currently, but will have enough CSM for them to stand on their own once I'm done.
Using the Black Legion supplement and modelling them as late Heresy Emperor's Children, so they'll be chaotic, but not too overtly chaotic.
Shopping list is currently
Huron (converted from the Astral Claws FW version to look like a Legion Preator)
3 x Chosen Squads in Rhinos, 1 x Flamer, 1 x Melta, 1 x Plasma
Noise Marines (but Kakophoni, because cooler)
Terminators (Phoenix Terminators, will prob run as Dual LC with MoS)
Maulerfiend
Heldrake
Havocs with Lascannon
Imperial Bunker (normally the house for the Havocs)
Land Raider
Not motivated entirely by game winning potential, as you may have gathered, but my main motivation is the painting and modelling concept, I then try and make that work with what works in game.
My daemons collection is pretty extensive, so I will have a lot of options once it's all done (and that objective is getting closer by the week)
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Chosen are best if specialized instead of generalized but just having 2 flamers in the squad is great, your paying a premium on a basic troop so giving them something like Mark of Slaanesh is decent as Ini 5 lets them strike before most. They can run super expensive though.
Noise Marines though are boss.
Not a fan of expensive havocs unless I'm going for Anti Air with them and unfortunately paying the premium for Flakk missiles.
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
2014/08/19 23:21:14
Subject: Mors non est finis , CSM and Daemons in 7th edition Tactica thread
By 1x I mean one of each squad maxed out in that weapon type, not one of each weapon, so 4 x spec weap plus champion initially, as it's easier to do squads of 5 with how they're sold, and then expanded down the line sometime.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
So I'll come back and read this thread on my phone at work, for now just posting what I feel is one of our most competitive units
10x Chaos Bikers w Mark of Slaanesh, Icon of Excess, 2x Melta Gun, Combi-Melta & Power Fist (on the Champ)
I also enjoy a Gift of Mutation on the champ but thats far from necessary
320 points gives you 10 T5 Wounds with 5+ FNP (this is tankier than T6 to almost everything in the game), 41 attacks on the charge at I5 not including the Hammer of Wrath hits, and, I generally support this with a Khorne Lord on a Juggernaut, I generally like to use a demon relic often Black Mace + Powerfist.
I've been known to take 20 bikers and two Juggerlords
I swear by Havocs, I like to take 3 units per game. I much prefer them to Oblits who I feel pay a lot of extra points and sacrifice damage for that durability, worst case scenario I'd rather bulk up a Havoc squad with more bodies.
I try not to build a list without one Heldrake as just that one hits like a train and is almost guaranteed to make its points back. I don't think spamming them is a good idea anymore however.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/08/19 23:46:15
Subject: Mors non est finis , CSM and Daemons in 7th edition Tactica thread
Here's a interesting combo I tried out the other day with allying in Chaos Daemons to my CSM and focusing on Biomancy and Telepathy. I won't post the whole army but I'll explain out it works.
Exalted Flamers are 50 points and count as a Herald so you can have up to 4. The problem is they have heavy weapons. This goes away when you give them Endurance. So if your playing a Biomancy /Telepathy roll with CSM and take this as your deep striking unit
Exalted Flamer 50
12 Pink Horrors
158 Points
So you get to deep strike with a unit that brings out 2 Warp Charge gets Flickering Flame, Can roll on Malefic if you endurance them they can fire at two seperate targets when they land. You can fire flickering fire at another unit and then have the Exalted Flamer fire at something with his Lascannon or Torrent weapon.
The Squads also pretty much the best to stick behind a Aegis Defense Line w/ Comm Relay, that's a H. Torrent Flamer.
It's a nice surprise unit.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/20 00:21:23
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
2014/08/19 23:52:04
Subject: Mors non est finis , CSM and Daemons in 7th edition Tactica thread
It's just a shame the NDPs come with the GUO tax, I just can't find a way around the poor mobility
I have some Plague Drones counts as up very shortly in the painting queue, which I think I'm right in saying is the fastest Icon in the book aside from Seekers?
Anyone had any luck with DSing a GUO in off an icon? (I've tried without, scattered into the open and got murdered - was against Eldar) Is it worth paying the points on a fast unit for one?
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
If your doing Nurgle Daemon Prince and Biomancy + Telepathy, I'd really reccomend the 50points for a Exalted and a Squad of Pink Horrors. Like I stated, it gives the Exalted Relentless when he deep strikes so he can fire immediately. Its super cheap too.
158 Points for a Squad that can fire 2D6 to 4D6 ST5 Shots , and have a model that can fire off a Torrent H. Flamer w/ ST5 AP3 or D3 ST9 Shots.
That's kind of awesome.
If you don't get endurance just use them as a camper behind a Aegis , it's a Torrent Flamer.
Great Unit for the price
You get a spell that can do 2D6 ST5 Shots at 2D6, a Chance if you wish to roll up possession.
A Torrent Flamer of AP3 ST5 , or D3 Shot Lascannon.
Better than Fearless
5++ rerollable on 1
Objective Secured
158 points
Also I'd fight you over someone saying this isn't now one of the best units Chaos Daemons and there for Chaos Space Marines Have Access too
Herald Of Slaanesh w/ Steed, Level 2 Telepathy for auto Psychic Shriek and Roll to get Invisibility or Shrouding / Terrify, Beguilement 115
13 Seekers of Slaanesh w/ Heartseeker
For a Little over 300 you get Psychic Shriek a chance at Invisibilty , Terrify or Shrouding, then get to outflank or Charge 2nd Turn. Definitively. Oh and you reroll 60+ attacks, that have rending. Short of a armoured foe like a Knight it can kill every HtH unit in the game.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/08/20 01:35:55
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
2014/08/20 08:20:57
Subject: Mors non est finis , CSM and Daemons in 7th edition Tactica thread
I've been looking at fortifications from Stronghold Assault, now that all fortifications must be taken from there, it sort of forces players and tournaments to open up for a wider selection of fortifications (at least tournaments in my area allow the ones that have an official model and no D-weapon)
The one that has stood out the most to me is the Imperial Bunker fortification: It's a medium building with two firing points in the front, and four models can fire out each point. It costs 55 points base. Because there is a slight bend to the right firing point, it actually has a pretty impressive LOS.
For 15 points more you can upgrade it to have an ammo dump inside, meaning you re-roll 1's to hit.
The squad of obliterators you have inside is now extremely hard to kill, shoots plasma with hardly any risk and is very accurate.
You can also put Havocs or Noise marines inside, and you have a backfield objective camper that is very hard to destroy for a lot of armies, while at the same time pumps out a lot of shots.
I've also seen the Escape Hatch upgrade being used pretty efficiently as a means to get big units of infantry up the board.
2014/08/20 08:25:58
Subject: Mors non est finis , CSM and Daemons in 7th edition Tactica thread
Spawnstar 5 spawn + 2 sorcs or a lord/sorc is pretty good alongside other mobile threats.
Belakor casting invis on a ton of bloodcrushers/hounds with heraldry. They obliterate anything in one turn and wont die ! But you need support psykers for casting. Shrouding is good enough if invis fails. Crushers suck because they have no save but if you give them a save from belakor or CSM support psykers on divination or telepathy they can get into combat and with all the MEQ players running around again and they murder.
I saw a Spartan Assault full of nurglings and it was very funny.
2014/08/20 17:25:48
Subject: Mors non est finis , CSM and Daemons in 7th edition Tactica thread
McGibs wrote: nurglings are swarms, and cant ride in transports.
Can't find anything in the BRB supporting that?
The swarms rule says nothing about it, and neither does the transport section.
Nurglings aren't even bulky, so you could shove them in an empty Rhino as far as I can see.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Swarms is a USR, not a unit type. Nurglings' unit type IS Infantry.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
I was going to use Letters at some point, as an AV14 Assault Vehicle pretty much eliminates all the issues with them, but Nurglings are much harder on the LOLs!
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Hollismason wrote: That's a interesting Tactic then if possible. Buddy up CSM and take Nurgling Swarms Fill Rhinos with Swarms blast forward toward enemy.
Except they need to sit a turn to assault but wuteves
Yeah, they'd have to sit one turn in order to embark and then move but that's not really a huge hindrance.
Also, you could buy 9 of them and like they said stick it in a landraider, now it's Objective Securing,
Cause that's actually a really good tactic.
I mean Mechanized I feel really is the way to go now with Chaos Space Marines.
Normally with just the basic Landraider in the book it's limited to ten unless you go forgeworld so it's hard to get a unit in there with a Herald. Landraider w/ Nurglings and a Herald inside are not a bad option at all plus purchased they can start the game in it.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2014/08/21 01:46:21
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
2014/08/21 00:35:25
Subject: Re:Mors non est finis , CSM and Daemons in 7th edition Tactica thread
I'll go ahead and share some of my favorite unit builds and combinations. I have found CSM difficult to build balanced lists in 7ed but the individual units are really good at their jobs.
A basic advantage to taking CSM as CAD and CD as allies is that you can avoid having to use the warp storm table and therefore save yourself time and headache. This is a worthwhile point for anyone not familiar.
First I will start with Be'Lakor as he is a combo machine that deserves his own tactica article.
*Be'Lakor + Landraider;
This combination is great because Be'Lakor can start out of LoS behind a building turn 1 fly behind the landraider and then turn 2 either drop down so you can charge Be'Lakor turn 3 and hide from LoS behind the land raider or fly off the board to keep Be'Lakor alive. This combo only gets better if you take some of the more durable forgeworld landraiders and the landraider becomes incredibly suvivable when Be'Lakor gets shrouding off and/or invisibility on the landraider. I often use this to make landraiders durable enough to deliver mini death stars such as Abadon + CSM, Kharn + CSM, Plague Marines + Chaos Lord, etc. The best part is that by the time Be'Lakor has to choose to either drop down from flight or fly off the table the unit inside is almost always within charging range.
*Be'Lakor + spawn or bikes w/ lord attached
This even combines well with the land raider above as the spawn gain shrouding and the landraider goes to a 3+ cover save. Otherwise the spawn unit still gets shrouding and/or can be invisibility off on it.
*Nurgle Spawn + lord (crimson slaughter nurgle lord on bike with power fist, power claw, sigil of corruption, and daemon heart)
This is an extremely tough unit and has some serious melee capability. It does however melt against some armies without a sorcerer or Be'Lakor to buff it. The lord is a good damage dealer but you really need to keep him out of challenges against top tier melee fighters like Abadon.
*Nurgle bike unit + lord (crimson slaughter nurgle lord on bike with power fist, power claw, sigil of corruption, and daemon heart)
Tough unit and works well without support as a couple melta or plasma make the unit pretty versitile. It is reasonably tough even without support as well. It also helps that there us a champ to challenge top tier melee fighter to keep your lord alive and killing enemy models.
*Unmarked Spawn + khorne lord with axe of blind fury, sigil of corruption, and jugger
This unit is excellent melee offense as very few models can survive a turn of melee with an axe khorne lord. However this unit disintegrates against heavy shooting and so really needs some decent support from a sorcerer or Be'Lakor. The axe lord is so scary that he will always get heavily targeted. Relatively cheap unit for its damage output though.
*Biker unit + khorne lord with axe of blind fury, sigil of corruption, and jugger
A good bargain unit with good melee and decent ranged damage. The unit is somewhat fragile though and some care should be used to limit LoS to the unit.
*Landraider + nurglings + epidemius + lots of nurgle units
Works reasonably well and with nurgle oblits, plague drones, etc. Making oblits T6, FnP, and Poison 2+ can be pretty nasty. This can be further supplemented by taking a palanquin nurgle herald to hide behind the landraider with a grimoire. However once you get plague drones + epi + herald you are better off with...
*Plague Drones (9) + epidemius + Palanquin Heralds (grimoire, max ML levels on malefic for cursed earth and to conjure support)
Make sure you get some etherblades into the unit to help against 2+ save opponents. This is a tough unit capable of taking on most enemy units. A major weakness of the unit though is that you need some long range daemons of nurgle (oblits with comms relay or soul grinders both work) to help build tally. Also the unit is pretty slow if you cannot get charges and must stretch out across the board. However with malefic in the mix now this unit can conjure helpers to aid it and DS oblits off the unit can now DS without scatter and get +1 to their invulnerable saves on top of everything else (curse earth). With the correct balance of support this can make an extremely effective deathstar. Alternatively you can do the same with beasts but it is usually not as effective.
*Cyher + Plaguemarines (10-20, ObjSec preferred) + Melee Character (unmarked or nurgle)
Cypher gets this unit into the opponent's objectives and they start bumping the opponent off their own objective. With either two plasma or two melta and a good melee character (abadon works well or a nurgle biker or palanquin lord also works) they can deal out some good damage. The unit also works well with a sorcerer to toughen the unit up or CSM bodies to soak wounds instead (if you take CSM you can get kharne in here).
*Oblits + screamer unit + herald on disc w/ cursed earth
This works best with something to get the oblits on reliably but being able to land without scatter and getting either a 4++ or 3++ (mark of Tz) can make this a severely damaging combo. The screamers can even deal out damage getting into position. This can even be combo'd with;
*Oblits or termi unit + unmarked sorcerer w/ last memory and spell familiar in termi armour
Essentially drop down into the middle of the enemy and nova the opponent. If the opponent was foolish enough to turtle up against your DS units they will take some serious damage. I used to think that telepathy was best for this to make the unit tougher but have recently been thinking that telepathy, pyrokinesis, and sanctic all have their own strengths to bring to this list. There is also a lot of positive points to taking a nurgle sorcerer as nurgle powers has a nice nova.
*CSM Daemon Prince (Tz is usually best) w/ burning brand, wings, armour, ML3, and spell familiar. Take powers from malefic
This unit flies around flaming stuff with the brand and conjures units with relatively few dice. This can work well but this is expensive and needs some extra WC dice generated from support units.
*Crimson Slaughter Unmarked Sorcerer ML3 w/ spell familiar and Prophet of the Voices taking malefic + unit of possessed to keep him alive
This is probably the single best conjuring psyker in the game. A neat trick you can pull with this unit is to infiltrate it with either cypher or Huron Blackheart. If you get cursed earth you can DS units off this without scatter and if you don't you are still putting down conjured daemons in the opponent's deployment zone. Alternatively you might want to park this unit behind a building or following a landraider to protect it.
*Blood Crushers, blood hunter w/ axe of khorne + Karanak + buff (grimoire usually)
This is the only way I have found to make decent use of blood crushers. The best part is that this unit can often spread out and multi charge anything mid field or even back field turn 2. With a good buff like invisibility and/or grimoire the unit becomes extremely tough. Str 8 has become somewhat less common as well so the blood crushers are a bit harder to kill.
I'll try to think of some other combos and units but these are all very useful.
2014/08/21 01:55:27
Subject: Mors non est finis , CSM and Daemons in 7th edition Tactica thread
Those are great suggestions Ansacs, thanks for the contribution.
Yeah for whatever reason, in my head I just always though you couldn't do it you could not put Nurglings in Landraiders, of course my last edition before 6th/7th was 2nd. So maybe that's where I thought it from.
Question is what kind of lay out and do you do a swarm of Landraider Mechanized?
9 Nurglings w/ Herald w/ Lesser Virulence and a Greater Aether Blade comes out to 210 on the nose.
Should you mix up some locus?
Personally I think Nurglings Swarms are excellent to ally in to Chaos Space Marines.
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
2014/08/21 02:51:56
Subject: Mors non est finis , CSM and Daemons in 7th edition Tactica thread
I just reread and you are right. No swarms in transports. Still nurgle palanquin heralds would be a tougher unit to put into a landraider and do some decent damage as well as being able to take biomancy and possibly become an extremely potent melee threat.
I like nurgling swarms to put into CSM lists as they are cheap, relatively tough to kill, ObjSec units with deep strike standard. They make excellent forward scoring units and can keep you on the board in reserves list by hiding behind walls of ruins.
2014/08/21 03:12:26
Subject: Mors non est finis , CSM and Daemons in 7th edition Tactica thread
ansacs wrote: I just reread and you are right. No swarms in transports. Still nurgle palanquin heralds would be a tougher unit to put into a landraider and do some decent damage as well as being able to take biomancy and possibly become an extremely potent melee threat.
I like nurgling swarms to put into CSM lists as they are cheap, relatively tough to kill, ObjSec units with deep strike standard. They make excellent forward scoring units and can keep you on the board in reserves list by hiding behind walls of ruins.
Yeah, where is this at? I can't find it.
Here is the entry for transport
Only Infantry models can embark upon Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet Pack Infantry), unless specifically stated otherwise. Some larger Infantry models count as more than one model for the purposes of Transport Capacity, and this will be specified in the model’s rules. Sometimes, there will be constraints on which types of models can embark upon a particular vehicle, and this will be specified in the unit’s entry.
Nurglings are just Unit Type : Infantry
They're no other type.
I can't find a restriction in the Chaos Daemon Codex, under the Landraider entry , Under Transports, Under unit types or under the Swarms special rule.
I think this was an old rule that everyone just was like " Oh that's probably still in the rules". I'm like 99 percent sure at some point swarms were not under any circumstance allowed to embark transports, but the Chaos Daemon Codex makes Nurglings Unit Type : Infantry and nothing else. Swarms is just a special rule they have. Before they couldn't climb inside Landraiders because you couldn't use Battle Brothers transports now you can.
I'm going to keep looking but I think it works and is intended or a oversight maybe.
I will say that being able to transport 36 wounds in one transport is freaking amazing for Chaos. Stick them in spare Rhinos etc...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/21 03:41:14
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
