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Hey guys, so this just recently happened at my job, and I can't figure out who was in the right. It's possible that I'm biased because I hang out with the guy and never liked the gal anyway, but meh.

So the story goes that about four months ago, we got this chick who started working at our job, let's name her Jill. Jill is an older lady, gonna guess 45. She's a divorcee with kids. One of the dudes in my department, named Jack, whose about 21 or so, works in my department and I hang out with him a bit out of work, and we usually tackled the same jobs together when something required two people came up.

Well, Jill comes in, starts work as usual, but we notice something about her; any chance she can get, she states that because she's A) Older, and B) divorced, she's never going to "get any" ever again. Whenever Jack and I start talking about chicks at bars and being total juvenile dudes about it, she says something along the lines of "Why can't anyone ever look at my (insert part) that way." It's not a special occurrence, she said stuff like this four times a week bare minimum. I had seen her say it at the end of her shift, start crying, and then leave when she clocked out.

Jack must have gotten annoyed with it, because after three months, give or take a week, he gets fired for soliciting sex from her; he sent her texts saying something along the lines of "If you really want it that badly I can help you out, you know....".

Well, we are at the bar, I'm trying to help calm him down/talk him out of doing some really stupid gak, when some dude overhears us. It was her old boss, and he had to let her go because she had done this to three people at her old job.


~~~~~

Fast forward two weeks, and she's still saying the same things (Though not as often) and is practically demonizing my friend. I can't go to the Managers, because unlike Jack who sent hard evidence in the form of Texts, all I have is He Said/She Said. Not much I can do.


~~~~~


While believe me, after cheering him up I made sure Jack knew what he did was stupid as hell, I can't help but think; was he entirely in the wrong? From what I've seen about this guy, he's not the type who just randomly goes around and asks women stuff like that. The ONLY reason I can see, and that he's told me, was because of how much she was complaining about it.

Whose the Victim to Blame in this situation, Dakka?

Your friend was wrong because he sent a text. You should stay out of it completely and act like she doesn't exist. Don't even speak to her or type anything in chat that isn't job related. Start looking for a new job because she may be trying to use you to make a case against the company.

This is just my point of view. I do manage people, but I am no expert on HR or US employment law. I have allot of experience managing people, but I don't know you, your place of work or what happened.

4 issues here as far as I can tell:

1) You and your friend "talking about chicks at bars and being total juvenile dudes about it".

Not really work appropriate conversation. Depends on exactly what was said, what the context was, where you work etc, but if someone complained it would be, for me, the basis for having a chat to the staff members in question and asking them to tone it down, keep that talk for outside work and leave it.

2) Her saying "something along the lines of "Why can't anyone ever look at my (insert part) that way." ... I had seen her say it at the end of her shift, start crying, and then leave when she clocked out."

Sounds like someone who is having issues, possibly feeling deeply unhappy or depressed. If it was me I would tell you guys to tone it down (in private) and take her aside, ask her also not to make those comments, but also try and see if there is anything I or the company can do to help, if she is ok etc. Someone crying at work is a BIG sign that something is wrong.

3) "he sent her texts saying something along the lines of "If you really want it that badly I can help you out, you know....". "
Completely 100% out of line. I'm not surprised he was sacked.

4) "Fast forward two weeks, and she's still saying the same things (Though not as often) and is practically demonizing my friend. I can't go to the Managers, because unlike Jack who sent hard evidence in the form of Texts, all I have is He Said/She Said. Not much I can do."

If it bothers you then talk to your manager. Explain the situation, explain that she is making you feel uncomfortable. You can go to your manager. They can go to her and talk to her and try and resolve the issues. If they won't then you have crap managers. Someone causing issues and saying inappropriate things does not require evidence for management to try and resolve informally. This is not a court. A good manager should try and get everyone to work together well, however if it is just her moaning about your friend you may just have to suck it up for the time being. He was way out of line. If she carries on then either ask her to stop or talk to your manager.

Finally, I don't get what you mean by this:

"Well, we are at the bar, I'm trying to help calm him down/talk him out of doing some really stupid gak, when some dude overhears us. It was her old boss, and he had to let her go because she had done this to three people at her old job. "

Done what? Complained about them sending inappropriate messages? Annoyed them by being unhappy? That doesn't make much sense I'm afraid. Also, I don't trust him at all. He is also out of line discussing personal information about one of his ex employees with a third party. If I did that it would be a disciplinary offense.

I completely agree with Steve steveson's post above.

As a UK manager trained in the legal concerns of harassment, I would say that all of you were treading on very thin ice throughout.

The woman is still treading on thin ice by continuing her sexual conversations at work, but accusing her of that now runs the danger of looking like a revenge move.

As for this vague claim that the same woman brought about similar situations at other companies, that simply will not fly and definitely will not get your friend his job back.

The best thing to do is to keep the whole thing as far away from you as possible. Try and get transferred to a different department.

Hilarious tale. Absolutely no sympathy for your moronic friend. If he wanted to screw around with an older, presumably mentally unstable woman, he should have been a tad more subtle.

Seriously though what Steve and KK said should be all the advice you need on this.

You could go against that and I'm sure it'll end in more hilarity.

What Steve said.

The best thing to do would have been to ignore them and not fall into that trap.

Here's the real question though, did you vomit blood?

Anyway, yeah, your friend is an idiot. There are only 2 options for dealing with this at the work place. You either ignore it or attempt to help her because she is clearly dealing with some issues.

My personal advice? Stay away from crazy.

Get a good audio digital recorder is small record her saying this crap then take what she is saying to the boss. Just make sure you do not initiate it or say anything make sure she walks up to you and starts the conversation. If she does not get fired then you have a lock tight A grade law suit. O ya give them a copy not the
Original.

Fireraven wrote:
Get a good audio digital recorder is small record her saying this crap then take what she is saying to the boss. Just make sure you do not initiate it or say anything make sure she walks up to you and starts the conversation. If she does not get fired then you have a lock tight A grade law suit. O ya give them a copy not the
Original.

No. Just no. Terrible, terrible advice.

text deleted.

Reds8n

Get a good audio digital recorder is small record her saying this crap then take what she is saying to the boss. Just make sure you do not initiate it or say anything make sure she walks up to you and starts the conversation. If she does not get fired then you have a lock tight A grade law suit. O ya give them a copy not the
Original.

I would highly suggest you DON'T do that.
In some states you CANNOT record someone without their consent.
So you could possibly set yourself up for not only getting fired, but for a lawsuit.

 Steve steveson wrote:
This is just my point of view. I do manage people, but I am no expert on HR or US employment law. I have allot of experience managing people, but I don't know you, your place of work or what happened.

4 issues here as far as I can tell:

1) You and your friend "talking about chicks at bars and being total juvenile dudes about it".

Not really work appropriate conversation. Depends on exactly what was said, what the context was, where you work etc, but if someone complained it would be, for me, the basis for having a chat to the staff members in question and asking them to tone it down, keep that talk for outside work and leave it.

2) Her saying "something along the lines of "Why can't anyone ever look at my (insert part) that way." ... I had seen her say it at the end of her shift, start crying, and then leave when she clocked out."

Sounds like someone who is having issues, possibly feeling deeply unhappy or depressed. If it was me I would tell you guys to tone it down (in private) and take her aside, ask her also not to make those comments, but also try and see if there is anything I or the company can do to help, if she is ok etc. Someone crying at work is a BIG sign that something is wrong.

3) "he sent her texts saying something along the lines of "If you really want it that badly I can help you out, you know....". "
Completely 100% out of line. I'm not surprised he was sacked.

4) "Fast forward two weeks, and she's still saying the same things (Though not as often) and is practically demonizing my friend. I can't go to the Managers, because unlike Jack who sent hard evidence in the form of Texts, all I have is He Said/She Said. Not much I can do."

If it bothers you then talk to your manager. Explain the situation, explain that she is making you feel uncomfortable. You can go to your manager. They can go to her and talk to her and try and resolve the issues. If they won't then you have crap managers. Someone causing issues and saying inappropriate things does not require evidence for management to try and resolve informally. This is not a court. A good manager should try and get everyone to work together well, however if it is just her moaning about your friend you may just have to suck it up for the time being. He was way out of line. If she carries on then either ask her to stop or talk to your manager.

Finally, I don't get what you mean by this:

"Well, we are at the bar, I'm trying to help calm him down/talk him out of doing some really stupid gak, when some dude overhears us. It was her old boss, and he had to let her go because she had done this to three people at her old job. "

Done what? Complained about them sending inappropriate messages? Annoyed them by being unhappy? That doesn't make much sense I'm afraid. Also, I don't trust him at all. He is also out of line discussing personal information about one of his ex employees with a third party. If I did that it would be a disciplinary offense.

Sounds like someone who is having issues, possibly feeling deeply unhappy or depressed. If it was me I would tell you guys to tone it down (in private) and take her aside, ask her also not to make those comments, but also try and see if there is anything I or the company can do to help, if she is ok etc. Someone crying at work is a BIG sign that something is wrong.

I agree with everythying but this. In no circumstances should you "take her aside." In no event be in a room with her with less than one other person present. Have no conversation with her that is not purely related to business. Have no conversation around her that is not purely related to business.

She doesn't know boundaries, you don't either, and there's no good side here.

 Frazzled wrote:

Sounds like someone who is having issues, possibly feeling deeply unhappy or depressed. If it was me I would tell you guys to tone it down (in private) and take her aside, ask her also not to make those comments, but also try and see if there is anything I or the company can do to help, if she is ok etc. Someone crying at work is a BIG sign that something is wrong.

I agree with everythying but this. In no circumstances should you "take her aside." In no event be in a room with her with less than one other person present. Have no conversation with her that is not purely related to business. Have no conversation around her that is not purely related to business.

She doesn't know boundaries, you don't either, and there's no good side here.

Just to be clear, I was talking as being the manager of all three of them, not as one of them. Ye, if you are a co-worker, do not try and help her like that.

[quote
Yes, the woman was to blame in this situation. She shouldn't be soliciting attention in that way and her supervisor should have called her up on it. Receiving a text message that contains an unwanted advance might not be very pleasant but it is a long, long way from harassment. Imho, of course.

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

Sounds like someone who is having issues, possibly feeling deeply unhappy or depressed. If it was me I would tell you guys to tone it down (in private) and take her aside, ask her also not to make those comments, but also try and see if there is anything I or the company can do to help, if she is ok etc. Someone crying at work is a BIG sign that something is wrong.

I agree with everythying but this. In no circumstances should you "take her aside." In no event be in a room with her with less than one other person present. Have no conversation with her that is not purely related to business. Have no conversation around her that is not purely related to business.

She doesn't know boundaries, you don't either, and there's no good side here.

Just to be clear, I was talking as being the manager of all three of them, not as one of them. Ye, if you are a co-worker, do not try and help her like that.

Ok gotcha then we are on the same page.
If I were the manager I'd be very careful as well. But as a manager you should be careful and curb stomp this type of behavior. Work is for work.

Removed.

Post made before seeing Red's work.

Stay away from this woman, Slarg. Don't be as idiotic as a guy who sent a sexual text to a work colleague who is quite possibly mentally unstable.

And more general advice, sexual relationships at work usually end badly.

Far as I know it's illegal to record without consent as long as both parties do not know it is being recorded. But if one of the people is doing the recording only 1 person has to know about it. That's why in divorces almost every time the attorney says you need to record them saying this to you. So they can admit it into evidence in a court case. Again do not bait it and I guess check your state laws on recording but ill bet you it's not illegal exspecially since this does involve possible legal implications like a law suit against the company or yourself.

Fireraven wrote:
Far as I know it's illegal to record without consent as long as both parties do not know it is being recorded. But if one of the people is doing the recording only 1 person has to know about it. That's why in divorces almost every time the attorney says you need to record them saying this to you. So they can admit it into evidence in a court case. Again do not bait it and I guess check your state laws on recording but ill bet you it's not illegal exspecially since this does involve possible legal implications like a law suit against the company or yourself.

It depends on the state, and varies a lot between the different states.

Step 1: don't solicit advice for a situation like that from the Internet.

Step 2: talk to an employment lawyer.

 Slarg232 wrote:
Whenever Jack and I start talking about chicks at bars and being total juvenile dudes about it, she says something along the lines of "Why can't anyone ever look at my (insert part) that way." It's not a special occurrence, she said stuff like this four times a week bare minimum. I had seen her say it at the end of her shift, start crying, and then leave when she clocked out.

Sounds to me like you and your friend created what's caled a "hostile work environment" in HR-speak for this lady.

Self-examine.

By the same token, sounds like she is creating a hostile work environment for you. These things can usually be worked out if you simply talk to eachother about the things that make you uncomfortable, maybe a mediator (your supervisor) could help you both establish a comfortable environment to work in.

I'd say that the matter is settled.

Don't speak to this woman out of work. Only speak about work related things in work. Sometimes when I encounter awkward or strange comments in work I just nod or smile and walk away. If your colleague doesn't get the impression that what she's saying is inappropriate or that you are uncomfortable with it from that then it's her problem.

The matter is settled.

She might be a little deranged but your mate was in the wrong. Just put it behind you, keep your head down and watch that cluterfeth explode as far away from you as possible.

Meh, I don't talk to her, never really did.

I have started looking for another job, it's just too much bullgak to deal with.

Also, the Managers have the same type of conversations..... about other employees.

Edit: Thread was less about "What should I do" and more about "Who was in the right?", anyway.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

Sounds like someone who is having issues, possibly feeling deeply unhappy or depressed. If it was me I would tell you guys to tone it down (in private) and take her aside, ask her also not to make those comments, but also try and see if there is anything I or the company can do to help, if she is ok etc. Someone crying at work is a BIG sign that something is wrong.

I agree with everythying but this. In no circumstances should you "take her aside." In no event be in a room with her with less than one other person present. Have no conversation with her that is not purely related to business. Have no conversation around her that is not purely related to business.

She doesn't know boundaries, you don't either, and there's no good side here.

Just to be clear, I was talking as being the manager of all three of them, not as one of them. Ye, if you are a co-worker, do not try and help her like that.

Ok gotcha then we are on the same page.
If I were the manager I'd be very careful as well. But as a manager you should be careful and curb stomp this type of behavior. Work is for work.

Were I a manager in this situation, I STILL wouldn't be in the same room, alone with that woman. If you are talking to anyone in a manager/employee situation about toning down or eliminating potential, sexually related conversations in the workplace, you really need someone (preferably of the same gender as the one being talked to) there, just to back you up, should things go to court eventually...

 Slarg232 wrote:


Edit: Thread was less about "What should I do" and more about "Who was in the right?", anyway.

Everyone involved was 'in the wrong' but your friend was in the wrong the most.

You guys were wrong for speaking inappropriately in the workplace. You guys were potentially doing 3rd person sexual harassment. If you were tho, it was their obligation to notify you and report you to HR.

The female was wrong for attempting to join in or play it off as not bothering her when it clearly did, instead of having you guys called out for 3rd person sexual harassment.

Your friend was wrong for escalating and propositioning sex. Period. His action was a fireable offence in most companies opposed to your locker room talk which is usually a warning from HR.

Pretty sure your company has a handbook, guidelines you were expected to know or compliance training.

Basically, don't talk sex at work. Do your work at work.

In my (uneducated in the world of work) opinion both your friend and that lady were in the wrong, your friend is in the wrong for his text and he really shouldn't have done that, and the lady was in the wrong to a slight degree for making the statements she did at the frequency you claim, once or twice can just be a cringy joke, but as often as you say she says those things would make things uncomfortable and cringy and she shouldn't do it.

As a former EOA for the US Army.

You need to inform her that you do not like to hear the subject you have an issue with.
After that you need to go inform your Supervisor what you have done and why.

but it sounds like she's a drama magnet so inform your Supervisor first. Best to inform two Supervisors at the same time on her behavior.

This is a rare dakka thread - it's almost wholly good, sound, reasonable advice.

 Ouze wrote:
This is a rare dakka thread - it's almost wholly good, sound, reasonable advice.

I guess when it's this difficult to find the victim to blame, all we have left is largely sound advice

I once told a girl (at my current job) that it looks like she wore her Wonder Woman undies that day, because she lifted a fairly heavy box. We're going out for pizza tomorrow.

Ps, the boss was less amused, but she wasn't bothered at all, so it ended fine. But it could have been grounds for termination. I got lucky we ended up really good friends. Or dating while not being a couple. I'm not sure what we are. But she's gorgeous and has a heart of gold. So I'm good


Your situation sounds gakky though. Had friends in the same boat in college. Avoid that coworker like the plague, and if you are forced to interact, keep it work only and say nothing outside of work speak. And bust her ass with recorded proof, first chance you get. If you can find a way to get your friend to sue her, bonus. While he did a VERY stupid thing (viewing outside the box), he also did something that could very easily be something that most people could do. Big issue was by text. Good luck with how it all turns out.

C-C-Combo-breaker!

 timetowaste85 wrote:
And bust her ass with recorded proof, first chance you get.

As discussed, this is possibly illegal depending on your states party notification wiretapping laws, certainly a bad idea, and in most jobs a good way to get fired. I really don't recommend you do this.

Jihadin had the best advice: if she brings up an inappropriate subject, verbally tell her you don't want to speak about that, and then email her and CC your boss that you directed her not to speak with you about non-work subjects so there is a paper trail.