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Do you think it is possible to play Eldar competitively and at the highest level without a Wraithknight in the list?

It seems like every Eldar list has them and Wave Serpents. I think it's hard to be competitive without wave serpents because there are no other transports available. Wraithknights were at first decried by many individuals as being too expensive for what they do. But they can be used effectively and make serious problems for a lot of armies. The last tournament I was at, every Eldar list, even those with Eldar allies, had a Wraithknight in. Is it possible to build a list without one entirely that can perform against top tournament armies? Or are we down to one basic shape of list for what was considered the most flexible codex only a couple of months ago?

The answer is yes, if you run a Serpent spam list. This has been proven.
For this, I'd take two units of Fire Dragors (or Wraithguard) for tougher enemy units or models.

War Walkers are a decent replacement to WK.

The eldar codex is a very flexible codex, its just close minded people who take nothing but wraith knights and serpent spam, think outside the spam box and you will see how fun (for both sides) it is to play eldar and yet still competitive.

I think wraithknights are holding people back to be perfectly honest. They are the new shiney, and they are useful, but I personally like the versatility of fire prisms better, plus you get 2 prisms for every knight, then spend left over points on moar warp spiders!!

chadbrochill17 wrote:
I think wraithknights are holding people back to be perfectly honest. They are the new shiney, and they are useful, but I personally like the versatility of fire prisms better, plus you get 2 prisms for every knight, then spend left over points on moar warp spiders!!

Umm no. Fire prisms are just....mediocre. At best.

Bad anti tank, fine anti meq (which eldar already have plenty of) and a small blast teq which has a high chance of missing, and against a decent opponent he will spread the unit gaining you maybe one dead meq. What does a fire prism add to a list? Next to nothing.

What does a wriathknight add to a list?
2 s10 shots, just as good as fire prisms anti armor guns.
A highly mobile unit
That can tank a ridiculous amount of shots.
That is an absolute beast in combat.

Put that all together and you get a extremely fast, hard to kill monstrous creature, who not only sucks up all the opposing anti tank fire power, but survives. He also dishes out ok long rage fire power, and great close combat.


Your holding yourself back by not using one,

Yes. I get that Wraithknights are great. I really do. My first post suggested that. But I'm looking at a 1650 list I'm working on and figuring that I could get most of what I really want in there if I didn't take a wraithknight. So what do you reckon, Ninjadragon - can an Eldar/Dark-Eldar list work without a wraithknight (and only two wave serpents!)

Not in at the at the "highest level" like you want them to. They can do well in friendly games, or even local tournaments without wraith knights. But once your going to GTs, I dont think so.

Seer council would do well.

Can you compete w/o a WK? Yes. There are loads of good options you can trade that 240 pts for. Eldar have one of the best codices in the game, from the standpoint that we have a LOT of viable options when list building.

The question is, why would you not take a WK? They fill gaps most Eldar builds have (Melee and High S, low AP shots) while also being super resilient. Sure you could do 3 WW's in the same slot and give them bright lances, or a 10 man squad of Warp Spiders, or run a Crimson Hunter. All those options are going to net you lots of good damage out put, but all fall over to a stiff breeze as well.

The WK is a reliable AT platform. And competing at high levels in a multiple game tournament is all about mitigating risk.

Would help to offer suggestions if we knew the rest of the list. I'm currently running a E/DE list with two serpents, and up till recently didn't have a WK. The WK has made a subtle difference in the way the army performs. I'm not enamored with his dmg output, but he complements the build well as a resilient fire magnet/CC deterrent.

Farseer (Jetbike, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stone of Anath'Lan, Singing Spear) this guy may quite often summon daemonettes
Farseer (Jetbike, Runes of Witnessing, Shard of Anaris, Singing Spear) this guys is protecting (invis, fortune?)
5 x warlocks (jetbikes, singing spears)

5 Dire Avengers (wave serpent)
5 Dire Avangers (wave serpent)
3 Jetbikes
3 Jetbikes

Wraithknight

Baron

5 Wyches (venoms)

If I drop the Wraithknight I can take swooping hawks, more jetbikes, holofields on the wave serpents, something else cheap in another venom. The 1650 tournament I'm going to is very scoring focussed. There is a maelstrom secondary in every game. BUT we will also play Purge The Alien once. Gulp.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

chadbrochill17 wrote:
I think wraithknights are holding people back to be perfectly honest. They are the new shiney, and they are useful, but I personally like the versatility of fire prisms better, plus you get 2 prisms for every knight, then spend left over points on moar warp spiders!!

Umm no. Fire prisms are just....mediocre. At best.

Bad anti tank, fine anti meq (which eldar already have plenty of) and a small blast teq which has a high chance of missing, and against a decent opponent he will spread the unit gaining you maybe one dead meq. What does a fire prism add to a list? Next to nothing.

What does a wriathknight add to a list?
2 s10 shots, just as good as fire prisms anti armor guns.
A highly mobile unit
That can tank a ridiculous amount of shots.
That is an absolute beast in combat.

Put that all together and you get a extremely fast, hard to kill monstrous creature, who not only sucks up all the opposing anti tank fire power, but survives. He also dishes out ok long rage fire power, and great close combat.


Your holding yourself back by not using one,

First off, the knight, is hardly a beast in combat.. I dont have my codex in hand but what does he get 4 attacks? WOOOO LOOK OUT ARMY HERE COMES MY 300 POINTS OF 4 ATTACKS!!!

Secondly, admitting that the fire prisms AT is essentially the same as the WK, how can you possibly tell me that a fire prism isnt highly mobile or capable of tanking a lot of shots? With holo fields and cover you're getting 3+ saves if you dont suck at maneuvering, 4+ on a bad day, and thats before jinking. You have twice as many models, twice as many threats, and if your first shot blows someting up you arent wasting your second on the same target. They destroy deep strikers with templates, take out hordes of orks and tyranids. VERSATILITY is the greatest weapon in ANY army, real or warhammer.

You take every opportunity to counter what I say, I dont know what your problem is but you should stop saying stupid stuff just for the sake of trying to counter what I say. I wish I could play a game against you to shut your ass up.

Kholzerino wrote:
Yes. I get that Wraithknights are great. I really do. My first post suggested that. But I'm looking at a 1650 list I'm working on and figuring that I could get most of what I really want in there if I didn't take a wraithknight. So what do you reckon, Ninjadragon - can an Eldar/Dark-Eldar list work without a wraithknight (and only two wave serpents!)

My list runs 3 WS, and no knight, and i have not lost a game with my eldar since 6th came out. Granted im playing at 2000 points most often, so 2 WS at 1650 would be quite a similar ratio

chadbrochill17 wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

chadbrochill17 wrote:
I think wraithknights are holding people back to be perfectly honest. They are the new shiney, and they are useful, but I personally like the versatility of fire prisms better, plus you get 2 prisms for every knight, then spend left over points on moar warp spiders!!

Umm no. Fire prisms are just....mediocre. At best.

Bad anti tank, fine anti meq (which eldar already have plenty of) and a small blast teq which has a high chance of missing, and against a decent opponent he will spread the unit gaining you maybe one dead meq. What does a fire prism add to a list? Next to nothing.

What does a wriathknight add to a list?
2 s10 shots, just as good as fire prisms anti armor guns.
A highly mobile unit
That can tank a ridiculous amount of shots.
That is an absolute beast in combat.

Put that all together and you get a extremely fast, hard to kill monstrous creature, who not only sucks up all the opposing anti tank fire power, but survives. He also dishes out ok long rage fire power, and great close combat.


Your holding yourself back by not using one,

First off, the knight, is hardly a beast in combat.. I dont have my codex in hand but what does he get 4 attacks? WOOOO LOOK OUT ARMY HERE COMES MY 300 POINTS OF 4 ATTACKS!!!

Secondly, admitting that the fire prisms AT is essentially the same as the WK, how can you possibly tell me that a fire prism isnt highly mobile or capable of tanking a lot of shots? With holo fields and cover you're getting 3+ saves if you dont suck at maneuvering, 4+ on a bad day, and thats before jinking. You have twice as many models, twice as many threats, and if your first shot blows someting up you arent wasting your second on the same target. They destroy deep strikers with templates, take out hordes of orks and tyranids. VERSATILITY is the greatest weapon in ANY army, real or warhammer.

You take every opportunity to counter what I say, I dont know what your problem is but you should stop saying stupid stuff just for the sake of trying to counter what I say. I wish I could play a game against you to shut your ass up.

First off, I dont take every opportunity to counter what you say, only when what you say is wrong or I disagree with.

"Hardly a beast in combat". Your joking. 4 Attacks, 5 on the charge. Which, by the way, is more than or equal to any of the other close combat beasts there are in the game. But, these attacks are 4 s10 (Which, by the way, is the highest strength in the game (besides D)). That hit at initiative 5. Which means he strikes first in almost every opportunity. Its also 240 points, which is extremely cheap for what you get.

The wraith knight is just as mobile as the fire prism.
And lets do the math on which is more survivable.
You are behind the ruin with holo fields (which, by the way, makes your 2 fire prisms more expensive than the wraith knight).
Wraith knight has toe in cover in a ruin. (You get the ruin, so does he)

at the bs of 4
1 las cannon vs fire prism does .148 hull points.
1 las cannon vs a wraith knight does .22 wounds.

With 2 fire prisms, you have 6 hull points.
A wraith knight has 6 wounds.

So in a simple fire fight like that, the fire prisms would survive a tad longer.
BUT,
Wraith knights cant be stunned, shaken, have there guns destroyed, become immobilized, or be one shotted.
Wraith knights also dont have to have 25% of them obscured.
Wraith knights cant be immoblized when going into the cover.
In combat, fire prisms cant do squat, while the wraith knight can go toe to toe with any close combat character out there and have a decent chance at winning.
Wraith knigths dont have to deal with melta weapons
Wraith knights dont have to deal with lance weapons
Wraith knights dont have to deal with armor bane
Wraith knights do have to deal with poison, and flesh bane. (although this can be avoided more easily than the above)

Wraith knights can see over most of the battle field, while the fire prisms are short and cant see over allot of the cover they are using.

Against drop pod salmanders, fire prims are sitting ducks, while the wraith knight can hold its own.
Against death stars, the wraith knight can tar pit them, or even do damage depending on the death star, while the fire prism is utterly wasted.
Tau often have ingores cover missiles, which slaughter fire prisms, while wraith knights shrug them off without a problem.

When the fire prism shoots a few things to note:
3 modes of fire. Sadly, like I said before and like Ill say again, none of them are spectacular.
Mode 1: Lance. About a 1/9 chance of knocking a hull point off a vehicle in cover. (Wraith knight has about the same shooting as 2 fire prisms in this mode)
Mode 2: Large blast. What is this mode used for? Killing large piles of infantry and meq. What does eldar already have an exorbitant amount of already, thanks to wave serpents, warp spiders, war walkers, and more wave serpents (Some of the most common units eldar use)? The same thing. Eldar dont need more anti meq.
Mode 3: small blast. What is this mode used for? anti teq. Only 2 problems, it is very rare to face teq, and even rarer to hit more than one model with the blast. (How often do you use this mode?)

Its guns are ok. Nothing more, nothing less.

What does the fire prism have over the wraith knight? I would say nothing but a bit of variety that isnt needed.

Now, it would be different if you just said that you think that the fire prism is better than the wraith knight. But that the wraith knight is a waste?
No. Just no.

Anything else to add?

300 points for 5 S10 attacks is hardly "beastly" in terms of point efficiency.

AV2 6 wounds 5 S10 attacks, or I could buy myself 4 Meganobz in a Battlewagon with a Kilcannon and have 8 wounds, 12 S9 attacks and AV2, plus the bonus of having the shooting attack not pile into combat with me.

The point is not that this thing can't duke it out with practically any one thing in cc. The point is that it can't duke it out with 300 points of anything in cc-unless you're charging a unit that actually can't hurt your knight, or a vehicle that can't fight back, I view cc as a bit of a waste of time.

the_scotsman wrote:
300 points for 5 S10 attacks is hardly "beastly" in terms of point efficiency.

AV2 6 wounds 5 S10 attacks, or I could buy myself 4 Meganobz in a Battlewagon with a Kilcannon and have 8 wounds, 12 S9 attacks and AV2, plus the bonus of having the shooting attack not pile into combat with me.

The point is not that this thing can't duke it out with practically any one thing in cc. The point is that it can't duke it out with 300 points of anything in cc-unless you're charging a unit that actually can't hurt your knight, or a vehicle that can't fight back, I view cc as a bit of a waste of time.

Its 240 why do people keep saying 300

Imperial knights. Daemon princes. Chapter masters. Rip tides. Dread knights.
All things that are close to the same points value, and the wraith knight can stand his own and for all expect a few, have a good chance of winning.
Not to mention that the wraith knight will brutilize tanks in cc.

CC most of the time is a waste of time (at least with eldar). But, when it isnt a waste of time, its a big deal.
For some of the other top armies, cc isnt a waste of time and really makes a difference. (Space marines, Necrons, Imperial knights...)

I specifically said the wraith knight was a good unit, then I said that I preferred the fire prisms, and from that you took that I said the wraith knight was a waste or crap unit. You like to twist everything people say to turn it into your little fantasy.

How does the knight avoid those things better than the fire prism? and no, the knight doesnt have the same mobility, my prism is a fast skimmer, i can easily avoid anything easier, except maybe armourbane.. because its dependent on the weapon platform using it. Good luck keeping your knight away from my seer council or warp spiders, or perhaps ill just ignore it because i can take 2 shots a turn without giving a gak.

take 240 points of anything designed for cc and watch your knight fail, I5 is nothing, my kos from daemons would probably murder you in 1 turn before you even get to strike back, the only reason a DP wont murder you is because hes T5, but if you take ironarm like you're supposed to or be'lakor, then you again are fethed..

Its easy to come up with specific examples of why one unit is good and another is bad, as you said it is preference, but I personally think I can get a whole lot more use out of 240 or 300 points of other stuff.

The 300 point version is a whole hell of a lot scarier than the 240 point version too btw, thats likely why people keep calling it a 300 point model. Being aggressive with the suncannon is a valid and strong strategy, holding back and pot shotting 2 guns on the stock one is not frightening in the least which is why the majorty strategy to dealing with them is to just ignore them for the whole game.

chadbrochill17 wrote:I think wraithknights are holding people back to be perfectly honest.

chadbrochill17 wrote:First off, the knight, is hardly a beast in combat.. I dont have my codex in hand but what does he get 4 attacks? WOOOO LOOK OUT ARMY HERE COMES MY 300 POINTS OF 4 ATTACKS!!!

chadbrochill17 wrote: and no, the knight doesnt have the same mobility Good luck keeping your knight away from my seer council or warp spiders, or perhaps ill just ignore it because i can take 2 shots a turn without giving a gak.

take 240 points of anything designed for cc and watch your knight fail, I5 is nothing, my kos from daemons would probably murder you in 1 turn before you even get to strike back, the only reason a DP wont murder you is because hes T5, but if you take ironarm like you're supposed to or be'lakor, then you again are fethed..

Thats what made me think you dont think wraith knights are good.

Although, it is true you never said it strait out.

chadbrochill17 wrote:
I specifically said the wraith knight was a good unit, then I said that I preferred the fire prisms, and from that you took that I said the wraith knight was a waste or crap unit. You like to twist everything people say to turn it into your little fantasy.

How does the knight avoid those things better than the fire prism? and no, the knight doesnt have the same mobility, my prism is a fast skimmer, i can easily avoid anything easier, except maybe armourbane.. because its dependent on the weapon platform using it. Good luck keeping your knight away from my seer council or warp spiders, or perhaps ill just ignore it because i can take 2 shots a turn without giving a gak.

take 240 points of anything designed for cc and watch your knight fail, I5 is nothing, my kos from daemons would probably murder you in 1 turn before you even get to strike back, the only reason a DP wont murder you is because hes T5, but if you take ironarm like you're supposed to or be'lakor, then you again are fethed..

Its easy to come up with specific examples of why one unit is good and another is bad, as you said it is preference, but I personally think I can get a whole lot more use out of 240 or 300 points of other stuff.

The 300 point version is a whole hell of a lot scarier than the 240 point version too btw, thats likely why people keep calling it a 300 point model. Being aggressive with the suncannon is a valid and strong strategy, holding back and pot shotting 2 guns on the stock one is not frightening in the least which is why the majorty strategy to dealing with them is to just ignore them for the whole game.

Knight avoids drop pod melta because he can have his toe in cover and still take the cover saves.
To harm a knight with missiles, you need 5s, then for me to roll a 1-2 with my armor. Then do this 6 times. It just doesnt happen.
Invisible death stars, rerollable 2+ deathstars the fire prims cant do anything about. Wriath knights can hold up the 700+ point unit in combat, while the rest of the army kills of there important units (troops).

There are so many more counters to fire prisms than there are wraith knights.
The knight has the same, if not more mobility. Your a fast skimmer. How fast can you move? 12 inches. Wraith knights are jump monstrous creatures. How fast can they move? 12 inches. Are wraith knights slowed by difficult terrain? no. Can fire prisms get immobilized in difficult terrain? Yes. Do wraith knight have to worry about getting into cc with a unit? Not most of the time. Do fire prims? Yes, almost all the time.
how can you say fire prisms are faster?

Your fire prisms cant avoid drop pod salamanders. But yours cant either I here you say. Yes, but I can still get my cover save. you dont. Unless you jink, which means you dont shoot.

"Good luck keeping my knight away from your seer council or warp spiders". So what is this? Were facing each other now? Were not talking about my army vs your army. Were talking about which is better for a tac list. Its rare to see a seer council in 7th edition competitive lists. And even then, I woundt be to scared rushing into combat with your unit. You only have so many powers you can get. I would keep you tied up for a few turns, letting the rest of my army kill yours.

"or warp spiders" Really? A 10 man warp spider unit does about 1 wound to my wraith knight. One. Wound. And that leaves you in range for me to destroy the squad with 2 serpents. You want to know what 5 warp spiders do to a fire prism? Sense they are so mobile and can deep strik it, it is very easy to get back armor. And then your the one in trouble.
5 warp spiders (half the amount that got one wound on the wraith knight) averages 4.4 hull points on your fire prism. You wanna jink? go for it, you still take 1 hull point that pens +the damage result. And im happy with whatever damage result you get. Then you dont get to shoot.

Oh, sure ignore my wraith knight. Id be glad. It goes untested across your army, choosing which target to assault, blowing up all your tanks and crippling your army.

Like I said, there are multiple 240+ point units that are designed for CC that the wraith knight can take.
-Smash F*cker chapter master (which is more thatn 240)
-Imperial knights (370-400 points)
-Dont know prices on daemon princes, but Im sure they can get up there.
-Necron command barge over lord (without poor rolling)

And those are just the competitive CC options.

"my kos from daemons would probably murder you in 1 turn before you even get to strike back"
How many attacks do you have? How many strength 8+ attacks do you have? Is it insta death?
To kill one in one turn like you said youll need
18 s8 attacks.
13.5 s9 attacks
and 10.8 strength 10 attacks.
If you have insta death you need
3 strength 8 attacks
2.25 strength 9 attacks
1.8 strength 10 attacks

I VERY much doubt youll get me in one turn.
And, dont forget, to assualt me you have to be in gliding mode, giving me AT LEAST one turn to blow you from the skies.

"If you take irom arm like your supposed to" Even at mastery level 3 you have a little better than half chance of getting that. And then your points are really stacking up.

Belakor is a good counter, good job. 1st one.


"Its easy to come up with specific examples of why one unit is good and another is bad" Obviously not, as the only good one you came up with was belakor. Of course for the fire prism, it is extremely easy to come up with why it is mediocre, but hard to come up with reasons why its good.

"but I personally think I can get a whole lot more use out of 240 or 300 points of other stuff" Have you seen competitive eldar lists? I mean GT competitive, not friendly games competitive. You know how many have wraith knights in them? You know how many have fire prisms? 0. none.


"The 300 point version is a whole hell of a lot scarier than the 240 point version too btw, thats likely why people keep calling it a 300 point model."

Then you are right. Then it is over costed. You know what its good at then? anti meq. You know what ive been saying all day? Eldar have enough anti meq.

You know how many grand tournaments use suncannon builds? You know how many use stock wraith knights? Obviously not.

"Being aggressive with the suncannon is a valid and strong strategy,"

"holding back and pot shotting 2 guns on the stock one is not frightening in the least which is why the majorty strategy to dealing with them is to just ignore them for the whole game."

NOBODY DOES THIS. No one in there right mind would do that. Why would you stay back and shoot the -sub par guns when you can be pressuring them, making them adjust to where you move, assualting for even more s10 attacks, and in general putting on pressure?

And lets stop with the personal attacks. No need.

Yes, but you have to be very creative and all around.