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Hey Everyone!

Like the title states, I was wondering how everyone else felt about Eldar Lists. I play both SM and Eldar and it seems like every list relies on running Wave Serpents with a particular equipment loadout in some fashion or another. From some of the lists I have seen, they always have the backbone of Dire Avengers and Wave Serpents. The rest of the list seems to be a mix of other items depending on the flavor the player likes best. I know how good Serpents are, but I have rarely seen a list that did not include them. Based on this, they seem very much like a mono-build army. Comparing that to SM or even Tau, they dont have the varying lists that I have seen at my FLGS.

So...is it just me? Are there other competitive lists that do not rely on Wave Serpents?

Well, Serpent spam lists are more or less mono-builds.
Variety comes into play when you consider HG, one or two Farseers (on jetbikes) and a Jetseer Council.

The sad thing is that Wave Serpants are so good there's never a reason to NOT take them. Hence why it doesn't matter what list they run, they have wave serpants.

 Havok210 wrote:
So...is it just me? Are there other competitive lists that do not rely on Wave Serpents?

Well there is your problem. You are looking for a use of semi-competitive units in a competitive setting.

If you step away from playing competitively, I'm sure you will find more variety in Eldar lists.

I, for example, run an Ulthwe foot-slog army, so I spam Guardians and run very few transports.

Yeah, then you get that eldar insta-win button.

 Havok210 wrote:
Hey Everyone!

Like the title states, I was wondering how everyone else felt about Eldar Lists. I play both SM and Eldar and it seems like every list relies on running Wave Serpents with a particular equipment loadout in some fashion or another. From some of the lists I have seen, they always have the backbone of Dire Avengers and Wave Serpents. The rest of the list seems to be a mix of other items depending on the flavor the player likes best. I know how good Serpents are, but I have rarely seen a list that did not include them. Based on this, they seem very much like a mono-build army. Comparing that to SM or even Tau, they dont have the varying lists that I have seen at my FLGS.

So...is it just me? Are there other competitive lists that do not rely on Wave Serpents?

I have no Wave Serpents in my list. I own one but traded away the others. Wave spam is pretty excellent. Susceptible to fast strike forces that can get in melee with them.

So it may just be the people you play with. At tournaments, people bring them because they just are GOOD.

If you want another perspective on how they can be built, you can check this out:

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2013/07/6th-edition-eldar-codex-making-flyers.html

and also this perhaps:

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2014/06/how-do-i-beat-eldar-wave-serpents-with.html

And if you dont mind 3 Wave Serpents this also might be fun to think about:
http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-new-eldar-prince-yriel.html

Dunno if these help you see the Eldar possibilities, but they are all blogs I did on the Eldar ways of war

I could field a pair of Wave Serpents but one of them is usually a Falcon. And really, Dire Avengers and Guardians in a highly mobile transport is pretty much the core of Eldar thinking.

I go Saim-Hann themed though, so I need transport tanks to bring along all the slow boring units to back up all my jetbikes, because even in a small force I field two large squads of Guardians on bikes, and a unit of Shining Spears, plus an Autarch and a pair of Warlocks on bikes (no Seer Council in my army).

I run 2 Wave Serpents in one of my 1850 lists. They carry a squad of Dire Avengers and a squad of Guardians, supporting lots of jetbikes, Vypers, a couple of Fire Prisms and a Falcon, and all supported by a Crimson Hunter.

The other Eldar list I run a lot with has only 1 vehicle in it. It's got Illic, a squad of Pathfinders, 4 squads of Rangers, Striking Scorpions, Warp Spyders, Swooping Hawks, a Crimson Hunter, 2 Wraithlords and a bunch of Dark Reapers. It's harder to use, but it's pretty successful so far - except against Tau.

 spunkybass wrote:
I run 2 Wave Serpents in one of my 1850 lists. They carry a squad of Dire Avengers and a squad of Guardians, supporting lots of jetbikes, Vypers, a couple of Fire Prisms and a Falcon, and all supported by a Crimson Hunter.

The other Eldar list I run a lot with has only 1 vehicle in it. It's got Illic, a squad of Pathfinders, 4 squads of Rangers, Striking Scorpions, Warp Spyders, Swooping Hawks, a Crimson Hunter, 2 Wraithlords and a bunch of Dark Reapers. It's harder to use, but it's pretty successful so far - except against Tau.

If you want help tuning those up for competitive games PM me.

Thanks for the offer, and I probably will. Though I haven't played in tournaments for the past 3 years (after 7 years of real heavy tourney play), it would be interesting to see

CWE have 4 troops choices that I see regularly and each have their own uses.
1) Serpent w/ avengers (you mentioned these)
2) Serpent w/ guardians; these guys tend to pack a bit more anti MC punch for point. Depending on your list this may be better
3) Minimum jetbike units. I see 2 of these in most competitive lists. They are the best objective snatchers in the game. Large units each with a Malefic warlock to get possessed can actually be a very powerful build.
4) One, exactly one large unit of guardians to keep some HQs in. Frankie from frontline gaming runs this. It can be a very useful unit with the right buffs and strategy.

Even with a core of 4 serpents (the most common in my experience). The lists usually have either 1-2 wraithknights, a seer star, or a beast star. I have however also seen some builds centered around lots of warp spiders or warwalkers to just try and drown the opponent in dakka. There is also the Imperial Knights w/ serpents builds I have been seeing.

I have not seen any of the 6ed and 7ed codices have only a single power build in 7ed. Most of them have 3-4 very good builds with only nids and AM being limited to 2 (BTW both get expanded considerably by forgeworld units and rules, AM still hasn't found it's feet in 7ed yet though).

I play a pretty wraith heavy army atm (I like the Iyanden lore! And the wraith models!) I see dire avengers in serpents all the time in groups of 5, not often in groups of 10...i would think that 5 would just be too fragile or unreliable, is this because people just want to take more serpents? I want to add a squad and another serpent to my army, but I just don't feel like only adding 5 will do much.

The eldar book has many very good, efficient and effective units in it that allow you to play a large variety of different style and lists.

The problem is that the wave serpent is a very poorly designed unit. I'm not saying its bad (god no!) it's just that it does everything too well meaning that if you are trying to be competitive when you look for a unit to fill a particular role you end up with a wave serpant.

Need long range firepower? - You could take a Falcon, Darkreapers, fireprism..... but the WS has more range and likely more firepower than those units in addition to its other benefits.

Need a survivable unit? - Perhaps Wraithguard/lord, an avatar, hidden rangers or a large guardian blob..... but the WS is alot more survivable than those units in addition to its other benefits.

Need anti-air? - The eldar don't have a huge choice here but the WS is alot better at it than any of the units that actually have skyfire.

Need mobile scoring units? - Perhaps Bikes, Spiders, Hawks, Vipers.... now this one is less clear as the eldar have lots of great mobile scoring options but the WS is very fast, can score and generally be objective secure and has all its other benefits as well.

You get my point, the eldar army has traditionally been an army of super specialists (especially the aspects), each unit excelling at doing its particular job but not covering many other bases. What versatile units they did have weren't brilliant any any of the roles.
This made them a very tactical army that rewarded precise play and advanced planning.

Compare the falcon to other heavy support tanks in other codex's, a predator for instance (a useful but not earth shattering tank) - it comes out pretty well in terms of mobility, firepower and survivability and points cost, plus it has transport capacity.
When was the last time you ever saw a falcon on the table, the wave serpent is better in nearly all battlefield rolls which is just silly.


That's why I think the wave serpant is a very poorly designed unit, it take away all your army and mission planning by giving you a unit that does everything really well, performs all rolls better than most specialists, can be taken en-mass and isn't super expensive. No wonder everyone takes them.

I'd highly recommend cutting back on the serpants (maybe one or two, it is your dedicated transport after all) and making an army using many of the other good choices in the eldar book, they are nearly all good and very effective at what they are designed to do. I'd wager both you and your opponents would have a more interesting and fun game.

Most armies rely on some kind of transport to be competitive (in some of their builds anyway). Movement is so important in 40k and transports give you movement. DE have Venoms, SM have Rhinos and Drop-pods (don't move but you get where you need to be), GK have their Razorbacks, Necrons have Night Scythes and Eldar have Wave Serpents.

Wave Serpents themselves happen to be very good, becuase they have good firepower, resilience and movement rolled into one. If I were to balance it I would probably increase the cost of/nerf the Scatter Laser (across the whole codex) and decrease the power of the Serpent Shield because as a transport, I don't think it should have the shooting it does, but that's just me.

I think it's definately possible to run few Wave Serpents and still be competitive however. The Eldar codex would still be one of the better ones if Wave Serpents didn't exist. Jetbikes are one of the best Troops (or any unit type for that matter) in the game, Warp Spiders, Farseers, War Walkers and Wraithknights are all excellent.

There are ways to run them other than 5 Dire Avengers as well. I think 10 Storm Guardians with 2 Fusion guns in a Wave Serpent is a scary unit, but you don't see it so much (mostly I think because you have to buy the over-priced upgrade kit).

ryuken87 wrote:
Most armies rely on some kind of transport to be competitive (in some of their builds anyway). Movement is so important in 40k and transports give you movement. DE have Venoms, SM have Rhinos and Drop-pods (don't move but you get where you need to be), GK have their Razorbacks, Necrons have Night Scythes and Eldar have Wave Serpents.

Wave Serpents themselves happen to be very good, becuase they have good firepower, resilience and movement rolled into one. If I were to balance it I would probably increase the cost of/nerf the Scatter Laser (across the whole codex) and decrease the power of the Serpent Shield because as a transport, I don't think it should have the shooting it does, but that's just me.

I think it's definately possible to run few Wave Serpents and still be competitive however. The Eldar codex would still be one of the better ones if Wave Serpents didn't exist. Jetbikes are one of the best Troops (or any unit type for that matter) in the game, Warp Spiders, Farseers, War Walkers and Wraithknights are all excellent.

There are ways to run them other than 5 Dire Avengers as well. I think 10 Storm Guardians with 2 Fusion guns in a Wave Serpent is a scary unit, but you don't see it so much (mostly I think because you have to buy the over-priced upgrade kit).

My friend actually came up with a good idea. Put the Serpent Shield on the Falcon. There you go, people have a reason to bring a falcon, and you can't bring as many of them without limiting other options. Also, I hate the Scatter laser. not because it's been amazing against me and it's blown me away constantly or anything, I just think the ruling for it is STUPID. They might as well just make all the weapons on the vehicles twin linked. As if they wouldn't be anyway....like seriously.

Personally they would not be as bad if Bladestorm was removed from the game.

Personally when I see a thread like this, I quite commonly see one thing in common and that is the shield.. however as I have experienced and read up on, the shield would not be as bad if it was not combined with Bladestorm..

Just my food for thought, but to me if Bladestorm was removed then people would be complaining a whole lot less about the Eldar codex imo..

 happygolucky wrote:
Personally they would not be as bad if Bladestorm was removed from the game.

Personally when I see a thread like this, I quite commonly see one thing in common and that is the shield.. however as I have experienced and read up on, the shield would not be as bad if it was not combined with Bladestorm..

Just my food for thought, but to me if Bladestorm was removed then people would be complaining a whole lot less about the Eldar codex imo..

Do you mean laser lock?

 Metalhed2434 wrote:
I see dire avengers in serpents all the time in groups of 5, not often in groups of 10...i would think that 5 would just be too fragile or unreliable, is this because people just want to take more serpents? I want to add a squad and another serpent to my army, but I just don't feel like only adding 5 will do much.

They don't do much. But that's not the point. They aren't supposed to get out. They are DAVU - Dire Avengers as Vehicle Upgrade. You want the Wave Serpent and the DA are the cheapest way to get one. You'd think it would be Guardians, but they have a minimum squad size of 10 and so cost more than 5 DA.

I agree with most everything WisdomLS said. The Wave Serpent does so much so well.

The Eldar codex is full of well-performing, fairly priced options. Warp Spiders! Swooping Hawks! War Walkers! Farseer (outside of Jetbike Council even)! WraithLORDS are still good! Most of these units aren't just brainless move up and roll to win either. Eldar is suppose to require far more finesse to win with.

Wraith armies are one thing, but aside from that, Eldar usually must choose between safety and firepower. Ideally, exposing their stuff only to things that will die before it gets a chance to shoot. They aren't the glass canon some people think they should be. But they aren't supposed to have much dakka while hiding. So you keep your guys in your Falcons and Serpents, keep your Walkers and Reapers out of range, and your Hawks and Spiders hide out of line of sight. Then, once you've worked your opponent into where you want him, everything engages in a firestorm of doom.

The problem is supposed to be that, before you commit, you don't have much fire power, and if you failed to handle even one threat, it would destroy you.

Serpents and Knights just don't care. Come in guns blazing. Shrug off everything. The survivability of Eldar hiding from the enemy, and the firepower of the full fury of Khaine, all at once. Its easy, and its effective. So it gets used.

I think this game does have a lot of 'that guy's, like any other game. And currently, the best list is Eldar, and really simple. So 'everyone' is doing it. I looked at the write-ups in the Battle Reports section the other day, and *every* list had multiple Davus, and at least one WK. It was kind of a letdown, and a reminder how lucky I am to have the meta I have.

My last game, I fielded a Serpent, because I wanted a 10 DA squad (plus shimmersheild on the Exarch- becuse without it, 10 DA are only marginally more survivable than 5). Ran it with EML + catapult. The EML got only one wound all game (splatting a Venomthrope), but when the s8 ignores cover started rolling in (Shrouding was the only power I got off all game...), that Shield shocked my opponent. That felt like what the Serpent was meant for. A flying brick that can make a mockery of gunfire (still dropped when assaulted). It didn't do much damage, but did its job effectively. Delivered my DAs.

That kind of mobility and survivability is what the Serpent should be. The guns should come from the Falcon or other tanks.

(Serpent Shield doesn't have Blade storm, FYI)

 pizzaguardian wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
Personally they would not be as bad if Bladestorm was removed from the game.

Personally when I see a thread like this, I quite commonly see one thing in common and that is the shield.. however as I have experienced and read up on, the shield would not be as bad if it was not combined with Bladestorm..

Just my food for thought, but to me if Bladestorm was removed then people would be complaining a whole lot less about the Eldar codex imo..

Do you mean laser lock?

I know there is a build for WS with some sort of siruken weapons?

It was that with the shield and laser lock is what really bothers people from what I've read in the past..

Im surprised Blade storm comes up. The guys with it don't get out of their transports but once a game and unload which in the totality of things seems like very little total output in a game. I'm referring, obviously, to the Wave spam lists that are the aforementioned "monobuild".

I hardly think about it when building the list or when defending against it. I am thinking FAR more about those hulls! they pump out a serious amount of "I don't like you". Lol.

Need I bring up Necron dedicated transport spam? The Nightscythe. Its a flying transport with Tesla weaponry that can drop off its troops without having to go into over mode (without causing hits to the troops), can fly off the board into ongoing reserves when it gets into trouble, and when it goes down the troops don't go down with it and instead can walk in from the edge of the board instead.

Remember that the Tesla weaponry causes extra hits on 6's to infantry and auto glances any vehicle on a 6.

 Xerics wrote:
Need I bring up Necron dedicated transport spam? The Nightscythe. Its a flying transport with Tesla weaponry that can drop off its troops without having to go into over mode (without causing hits to the troops), can fly off the board into ongoing reserves when it gets into trouble, and when it goes down the troops don't go down with it and instead can walk in from the edge of the board instead.

Remember that the Tesla weaponry causes extra hits on 6's to infantry and auto glances any vehicle on a 6.

Im lost. Bladestorm doesnt affect vehicles. Just peoples.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
Need I bring up Necron dedicated transport spam? The Nightscythe. Its a flying transport with Tesla weaponry that can drop off its troops without having to go into over mode (without causing hits to the troops), can fly off the board into ongoing reserves when it gets into trouble, and when it goes down the troops don't go down with it and instead can walk in from the edge of the board instead.

Remember that the Tesla weaponry causes extra hits on 6's to infantry and auto glances any vehicle on a 6.

Im lost. Bladestorm doesnt affect vehicles. Just peoples.

Ummm I didn't use bladestorm a single time in my post...

 Xerics wrote:
Need I bring up Necron dedicated transport spam? The Nightscythe. Its a flying transport with Tesla weaponry that can drop off its troops without having to go into over mode (without causing hits to the troops), can fly off the board into ongoing reserves when it gets into trouble, and when it goes down the troops don't go down with it and instead can walk in from the edge of the board instead.

Remember that the Tesla weaponry causes extra hits on 6's to infantry and auto glances any vehicle on a 6.

Tesla does NOT auto glance on 6s, that's Gauss. Two very different weapon types.

Stander Serpents have 3 s6 blade storm shots at 24". The other weapons are ap6 or -.

You could take 2 cannons, giving you 6 s6 blade storm shots, but then you have no scatter lasers. Never seen anyone do this though.