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So when I first read Horus Rising about 5 years ago, I was hooked on the series. I've read all the way up to the 6th book, but only because college has taken up most of my reading time and because I have difficulty finding the next book (at a reasonable price.)
But my question is, at what period of the Heresy is the series at? I know that it's hard to pinpoint an actual location in the timeline seeing how the series tends to be all over the place with multiple short story books and the such. But is the Heresy still at it's beginning stages? I know it's a seven year-long war, so then what year would you say it's at?
I'm willing to bet we won't see the end of the Heresy series for many years to come. I for one would not mind a close to the series because it opens up another period in the history of 40k between the Heresy and present that isn't as detailed or known of.
It's a little more complicated than that. The most "forward" story would be the Battle of Tallarn, which takes place around 011.M31, while the Siege of Terra is 014.M31, so we're certainly not in the opening stages anymore.
As for the 7 years thing, people seem to forget that it's 7 years from Istvaan V to the Siege of Terra. But it was 14 years from Ullanor to Terra and we have quite a few stories that take place, either partially or fully, before Istvaan V.
So yes, there has been progress. There are about half a dozen seperate story arcs that weave themselves between each other, which is why people were complaining that there was no movement. People were so convinced that the Horus Heresy consisted entirely of Istvaan III -> Istvaan V -> Terra, with Calth, Signus, and Prospero thrown in. And yet they're completely wrong.
As for The Scouring era that takes place after the Heresy? Buy a copy of Talon of Horus, the first of an entire ADB series staring the Black Legion that takes place during The Scouring.
Edited: millennium
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/22 22:24:17
It's fan-made but it's been pretty well vetted over on B&C. The ovals are each a short story or novella and the long bars are novels, just to give you an idea of how much has been written.
techsoldaten wrote: It's somewhere. Lots of long stories about waypoints on the road to Terra. No one appears to be in too much of a rush to conclude things.
The authors probably get paid per book.
And the siege of Terra is likely to be the last book they make, which means they're going to keep putting it off until they can't be bothered anymore.
techsoldaten wrote: It's somewhere. Lots of long stories about waypoints on the road to Terra. No one appears to be in too much of a rush to conclude things.
The authors probably get paid per book.
And the siege of Terra is likely to be the last book they make, which means they're going to keep putting it off until they can't be bothered anymore.
No. Even if they get to Terra and finish it, they'll continue making prequel prequels, before inevitably retconning the Siege of Terra book around five years from its release, making a super duper special edition with limited printing costing $100 because of throw-away art included in it.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
techsoldaten wrote: It's somewhere. Lots of long stories about waypoints on the road to Terra. No one appears to be in too much of a rush to conclude things.
The authors probably get paid per book.
And the siege of Terra is likely to be the last book they make, which means they're going to keep putting it off until they can't be bothered anymore.
I would bet the authors either get a tiny commission or are on salary. The books smack of work for hire. Someone should ask ADB over on Bolter and Chainsword.
I don't see the series stopping at the Siege of Terra. That event will probably span 12 books on it's own, and then it's all about the flight to the Eye of Terror.
BattleCapIronblood wrote:
But my question is, at what period of the Heresy is the series at?
It's in the Cash Cow phase.
The series should have been finished already. They're just making stuff up at this point to drag it out, and it shows. Painfully. Starting with Betrayer (which was a short novella stretched out to a full length novel), continuing on through Unremembered Novel, Vengeful Spirit and on to this latest travesty DamnwhyamIreadingthis of Pythos, the quality and relevance of the story has taken a nosedive.
Heck, Vengeful Spirit is so awful, and even worse, it's like the 1980s GI Joe cartoon movie in terms of being a product tie in. And about as good. Hey guys, we are selling Knights now. Read this book about them and don't forget to go buy one or three!
Pythos is so dreadfully dull that I can't even tell you what it was about. Oh wait. Other than the flesh is weak the flesh is weak the flesh is weak the flesh is weak the flesh is weak . They beat that line's drum so hard and so often that one of the Iron Hands seriously has an internal monolog about whether or not he should save the flesh since he hates the flesh so much for being weak. The flesh in that case being a group of human bystanders, lol.
As for the 7 years thing, people seem to forget that it's 7 years from Istvaan V to the Siege of Terra.
Only because they changed it to be that way, lol. In the original stories it was about six months. Which made sense. Horus wiped out three full Legions at Istvaan, had the Ultramarines delayed on the other side of the galaxy, as well as the Wolves and Dark Angels delayed. He was bringing 7 Legions to Terra against 3. If he beelines to Terra and wins, then he's wiped out 6 out of 9 loyal Legions, and the only one that's even remotely intact at that point was the Ultramarines. He can consolidate his gains and regroup, then confront what's left of the Ultramarines/Wolves/Dangels with what's left of his 9 traitor Legions.
Taking 7 years and bouncing around the galaxy is utterly pointless. Horus held all of the cards in the Heresy, and was only brought down by his own hubris/mistake (depending on which version of the ending you're talking about). The new version watches him deal them away as he splits up his forces piecemeal.
The logistics of a 7 Year Heresy are ludicrous. The traitors were already outnumbered. They had to purge large portions of their own Legions of loyalists, so none of the Traitor Legions were at anywhere close to full strength. They sacrificed half of the Word Bearers to delay the Ultramarines, and all but wiped out the Thousand Sons. Add to the fact that some of the Traitors are of questionable reliability (looking at you Scooby Doo Marines), and their target is the most heavily defended target in the galaxy, they're already fighting at a disadvantage. Literally the only advantage the Traitors had was surprise. Surprise let them annihilate the Salamanders, Raven Guard and Iron Hands (who in the older versions had survivors in the low three digits (less than 20 originally, lol)). That almost evened the odds for them, but they still had to the mount a frontal assault on the Fortress of Terra. The only way they had a chance in hell of accomplishing that task was by taking their momentary advantage (7 vs 3) and pressing it.
There's no greater "plan" at TBL other than "How can we make the most amount of money possible?"
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
techsoldaten wrote: It's somewhere. Lots of long stories about waypoints on the road to Terra. No one appears to be in too much of a rush to conclude things.
The authors probably get paid per book.
And the siege of Terra is likely to be the last book they make, which means they're going to keep putting it off until they can't be bothered anymore.
Books would be more like it. Would be at least a 3 parter.
Man, it's going be long since they end it with Horus getting killed on his Battle-Barge. Or, they're going strait ahead and keep writing the great scouring.
As for the 7 years thing, people seem to forget that it's 7 years from Istvaan V to the Siege of Terra.
Only because they changed it to be that way, lol. In the original stories it was about six months. Which made sense.
Which original stories? Realms of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned stated the Death Guard's long distance warp jump to Terra was in the 3rd year of the Horus Heresy. Six month's only makes sense if you throw out the concept of space being really really big and warp travel taking time, which admittedly is a problem of the current books.
The stories don't give a strict timeline, other than there was a 180 day delay between Istavaan III and Istvaan V (or, technically Isstvan as it was originally spelled). So there's wiggle room between how much time Istvaan III took, and how much time the transit to Earf afterwards. Maybe it was three years by then. However, there was no delay.
Horus very explicity goes straight to Earth to capitalize on his short term numerical advantage. So if the Death Guard got lost three years in on the way to Earth, then it was approximately three years from Eisenstein to Istvaan V. Which is actually fairly consistent with the idea of travel times being the most important thing to the Heresy (and also explain why the original story had no Calth at all, and just the Ultramarines being campaigning on the far edge of the Galactic South, too far away to interfere).
From Slaves to Darkness:
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
BattleCapIronblood wrote:
But my question is, at what period of the Heresy is the series at?
It's in the Cash Cow phase.
The series should have been finished already. They're just making stuff up at this point to drag it out, and it shows. Painfully. Starting with Betrayer (which was a short novella stretched out to a full length novel), continuing on through Unremembered Novel, Vengeful Spirit and on to this latest travesty DamnwhyamIreadingthis of Pythos, the quality and relevance of the story has taken a nosedive.
Heck, Vengeful Spirit is so awful, and even worse, it's like the 1980s GI Joe cartoon movie in terms of being a product tie in. And about as good. Hey guys, we are selling Knights now. Read this book about them and don't forget to go buy one or three!
Pythos is so dreadfully dull that I can't even tell you what it was about. Oh wait. Other than the flesh is weak the flesh is weak the flesh is weak the flesh is weak the flesh is weak . They beat that line's drum so hard and so often that one of the Iron Hands seriously has an internal monolog about whether or not he should save the flesh since he hates the flesh so much for being weak. The flesh in that case being a group of human bystanders, lol.
As for the 7 years thing, people seem to forget that it's 7 years from Istvaan V to the Siege of Terra.
Only because they changed it to be that way, lol. In the original stories it was about six months. Which made sense. Horus wiped out three full Legions at Istvaan, had the Ultramarines delayed on the other side of the galaxy, as well as the Wolves and Dark Angels delayed. He was bringing 7 Legions to Terra against 3. If he beelines to Terra and wins, then he's wiped out 6 out of 9 loyal Legions, and the only one that's even remotely intact at that point was the Ultramarines. He can consolidate his gains and regroup, then confront what's left of the Ultramarines/Wolves/Dangels with what's left of his 9 traitor Legions.
Taking 7 years and bouncing around the galaxy is utterly pointless. Horus held all of the cards in the Heresy, and was only brought down by his own hubris/mistake (depending on which version of the ending you're talking about). The new version watches him deal them away as he splits up his forces piecemeal.
The logistics of a 7 Year Heresy are ludicrous. The traitors were already outnumbered. They had to purge large portions of their own Legions of loyalists, so none of the Traitor Legions were at anywhere close to full strength. They sacrificed half of the Word Bearers to delay the Ultramarines, and all but wiped out the Thousand Sons. Add to the fact that some of the Traitors are of questionable reliability (looking at you Scooby Doo Marines), and their target is the most heavily defended target in the galaxy, they're already fighting at a disadvantage. Literally the only advantage the Traitors had was surprise. Surprise let them annihilate the Salamanders, Raven Guard and Iron Hands (who in the older versions had survivors in the low three digits (less than 20 originally, lol)). That almost evened the odds for them, but they still had to the mount a frontal assault on the Fortress of Terra. The only way they had a chance in hell of accomplishing that task was by taking their momentary advantage (7 vs 3) and pressing it.
There's no greater "plan" at TBL other than "How can we make the most amount of money possible?"
Obviously not a fan then! Personally I have enjoyed the whole series, the timeline does not follow tue novel numbers no, but I woulnt expect it to.
You make it sound like the 9 loyalist legions are waiting to pound the traitors on terra.... The UM are stuck at home, BA on the far side of the galaxy the DA have joined the UM in their new empire and the WS don't seem to want to take sides. The IH, Sal and RG are all but finished. So that leaves the IF and possibly the SW on terra. If your not enjoying the heresy their are other books aplenty out there!
vet sarg is right, they are killing a wonderful story.
Especily now that the full might of the BA escaped the primus thing and are chilling at ultramar with all of 13 legion and half of DA legion
So now the loyalists have 2.5 legions at ultramar, 1 legion at terra, 1 legion licking their paws at prospero, white scars scratching their nuts somewhere and 3 reminants of legions scattered across the galaxy.
wont be too hard to get all of them but the space puppies back to terra in time to royally stuff over horus
I like the older story which was done by dan abnett or gav thrope where The Lion was the bad guy - he intentionally delayed getting to terra because he wanted to see who the winner would be and he would swear loyalty to the winner. Luther found out and called him a traitor and when the lion returned to his home world luther attacked him for it. then the lion had to go to all this trouble to cover up his lack of loyalty - hence the 10k year hunt for the fallen to hide his shame and emperors sanction that he be locked up
2nd edition: Blood Angels
3rd edition: Imperial Guard
4th edition: Iron Warriors
5th edition: Death Guard
6th & 7th edition: taking a break - power creeep (lethality of game) became too hot to handle
Knockagh wrote:You make it sound like the 9 loyalist legions are waiting to pound the traitors on terra....
Rereading will improve your comprehension.
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
Heck, Vengeful Spirit is so awful, and even worse, it's like the 1980s GI Joe cartoon movie in terms of being a product tie in. And about as good. Hey guys, we are selling Knights now. Read this book about them and don't forget to go buy one or three!
Hey, I would love to read a book about Knights. I have 6 of them. Of course, they are part of my Epic Imperial army, and I paid 16 dollars for all of them, still on the sprue from GenCon..........
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/31 15:25:36
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
Heck, Vengeful Spirit is so awful, and even worse, it's like the 1980s GI Joe cartoon movie in terms of being a product tie in. And about as good. Hey guys, we are selling Knights now. Read this book about them and don't forget to go buy one or three!
Hey, I would love to read a book about Knights. I have 6 of them. Of course, they are part of my Epic Imperial army, and I paid 16 dollars for all of them, still on the sprue from GenCon..........
Vengeful Spirit wasn't awful because it was about knights. It was about knights because its release was timed to coincide with the model release.
It was awful because it was awful, lol. The plot is ridiculous and ponderous, and the characterization sucks.
Spoiler:
Something about a jungle planet where Knights go hunt giant angry alien gorilla lizards because that seems like a knightly thing to do. It's somewhat irrelevant. The Knight characters are boring, stock-card aristocrats, and eventually become boring, stock-card aristocratic villains. Then Horus shows up and there's a massive battle where a ton of stuff happens in a vacuum and Space Marines die in the thousands because, you know, the Legions would totally be sustainable at those loss rates. The whole gang from the Garro crew shows up, half of them die, and the other half are conveniently saved from a suicide mission to fight another day. Finally, at the end of the novel, Horus does something, which we are left to assume was necessary to the greater Heresy plot. And if I got any of the details slightly wrong here, it's really only because the story was so forgettably bad.
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
Well well someone in this thread isn't a big fan of the books but if you don't like ADB's "Betrayer" then basically you are a lost cause and no one can help!
Certainly better off asking someone who still remotely likes 40k books! Though this kind of frustration and bitterness is just what Games Workshop does to its fans isn't it, and love and hate are so close.
That was a great timeline that was posted but I'd say this for where we are at. Horus has gone off and done his little journey through Chaos and emerged older, wiser and with some serious mojo. The Death Guard have all of their plague shenanigans going on and Angron and Fulgrim are ascended into Daemon Prince stages.
They've more or less all said they are ready to go to Terra now. I get the feeling the Scars are going to get another book and I imagine the journey to Terra will be quite protracted with another book about the Lion and Girlyman.
The legitimate point to get angry about isn't drawing it out or the odd stinker of a book but the way they are attempting to rape the fans with 59 special editions before you can buy the book, limited releases which kills the excitement for the release date so I DO NOT EVEN KNOW when the book I can buy will come out. Imagine if Apple killed their hype with stunts like this - mental.
Also constant fragmentation with tiny short stories and limited novellas mean you start feeling disconnected with the storyline because you are missing things, you don't know what is being released and what isn't or what book is next.
So you stop buying them (I bought 22 books the moment they came out) I am now apathetic and confused about buying them which I usually love to do (and to have a real paperback) but the black flag of piracy looms more often than not now.
Odd stinker? Fallen Angels and Descent of Angels are shocking bad, I couldn't even finish them. I've been able to get through the rest mostly because I listen to them as audiobooks while painting/running, although Vengeful Spirit was very very poor and I struggled with it, as I did with Scars. They feel like ridiculously stretched out short stories for the most part, shown by sudden jumps in the internal timelines of the novels. The short stories have, on the whole, been some of the poorest. However I think they really lost me when Angron and Lorgar took on a titan and won.
In terms of the timeline, I'd say we're about 6 or 7 books from Terra, and the assault on Terra is bound to be split over 3 or 4 books. So, maybe another 5 or 6 [real life] years before the end?
Edit - I'm a big fluff monkey, love the 40k background and would potentially be very happy to spend my hard-earned money on them, but the overall poor quality of writing plus the ridiculous price of the audiobooks has made me search for alternative methods to paying for them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/31 16:27:16
tyrannosaurus wrote: Odd stinker? Fallen Angels and Descent of Angels are shocking bad, I couldn't even finish them. I've been able to get through the rest mostly because I listen to them as audiobooks while painting/running, although Vengeful Spirit was very very poor and I struggled with it, as I did with Scars. They feel like ridiculously stretched out short stories for the most part, shown by sudden jumps in the internal timelines of the novels. The short stories have, on the whole, been some of the poorest. However I think they really lost me when Angron and Lorgar took on a titan and won.
In terms of the timeline, I'd say we're about 6 or 7 books from Terra, and the assault on Terra is bound to be split over 3 or 4 books. So, maybe another 5 or 6 [real life] years before the end?
Edit - I'm a big fluff monkey, love the 40k background and would potentially be very happy to spend my hard-earned money on them, but the overall poor quality of writing plus the ridiculous price of the audiobooks has made me search for alternative methods to paying for them.
Why does everyone hate Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels?
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Jaq Draco lives wrote: Well well someone in this thread isn't a big fan of the books but if you don't like ADB's "Betrayer" then basically you are a lost cause and no one can help!
Whatever you say kiddo.
The book's plot is overstretched, the battles are silly, the characterization is inconsistent and unbelievable. From a technicaly standpoint, the prose is well written, but it's not a very good book when you dissect the story. I'm a fan of ADB's work, especially TFH. He and I have even had some conversations. But I've been pretty up front about the fact that I thought it was a bad idea from the start (Butcher's Nails) to try to write about the World Eaters in detail, let alone try to stretch their flimsy, two-dimensional premise into an entire novel.
The World Eaters are the Orks of Space Marines. Except they don't have all the Orks' "Get Out Jail Free" cards. Choose your leaders based on challenges to the death and remain an effective fighting force? Sure you do. Build ramps out of your own corpses to breach walls and maintain massive numbers? Sure you do. Lobotomize your entire command staff and still able to plan and conduct planetary scale operations? Sure you do. Everything about the World Eaters is silly. Which is why they're meant to be background characters in 40K/30K, not protagonists, because their premise ridiculous and unbelievable. Just as nobody asks how the Orks stand up to the logistical demands of interplanetary travel and conquest without any infrastructure, don't try to explain how the World Eaters work. It won't work. Ever. Betrayer requires a Mount Everest sized mountain of suspension of disbelief. If you're willing to just read words as a path to reach the next page's worth of words, Betrayer was a good book. If you were looking for an actual coherent, believable narrative, it came up short.
And honestly, this is a continuing trend for the Heresy novels. Vengeful Spirit is an overlong, overly complex product tie-in. Dan Abnett, while his work is often derivative, usually produces good work, but The Unremembered Novel was half a novel (with a rather flimsy premise in the first place) that falls apart in ints final act, serving up only more Primarch Battle Porn, with ridiculous fist fights with no resolution, and everybody escapes to fight another day. Another problem that Betrayer had was that the Ultramarines served no purpose in the story at all. The plot arc of Betrayer is Lorgar realizes Angron is dying. Lorgar takes Angron to his home planet to get revenge. Revenge allows Lorgar to facilitate Angron's ascension to Daemonhood. That's it. You don't even need half of the novel at that point, so the rest of it is purely filler with excessive exploration of the improbable, impossible, and untenable culture of the World Orkers Legion. And all the filler does is give an excuse for Guilliman, Angron and Lorgar to get in a fan-service fist fight with no resolution, where everyone is dragged off to safely fight another day. Yawn.
I don't hate GW. I'm not mad about any of it. I gave up being emotionally invested in fictional series years ago.
I just know mediocre books when I read them, lol.
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
The prose is boring as all hell, imo. I got about halfway through Descent of Angels, over the course of about six months due to how dull it was, then said feth it and skipped to the last few chapters. Read Fallen Angels and didn't even bother trying to get past the first few chapters- just moved on to other books.
I can't say the books are objectively bad, but I don't know anyone who thought they were written in a compelling fashion.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: he World Eaters are the Orks of Space Marines. Except they don't have all the Orks' "Get Out Jail Free" cards. Choose your leaders based on challenges to the death and remain an effective fighting force? Sure you do. Build ramps out of your own corpses to breach walls and maintain massive numbers? Sure you do. Lobotomize your entire command staff and still able to plan and conTt planetary scale operations? Sure you do. Everything about the World Eaters is silly. Which is why they're meant to be background characters in 40K/30K, not protagonists, because their premise ridiculous and unbelievable.
That's a fair assessment, and it's why I'm not a huge fan of of the story either.
I mean, when ADB spent a good ~ten pages or so describing how, the moment the World Eaters touched down on the planet, they immediately scattered like roaches into the Ultramarine's city with zero strategic cohesion or communication and got outmaneuvered and outnumbered by the Ultramarines at every turn, and fell for every UM trap and every UM ambush, and still managed to win because, quote, "the World Eaters had nothing to live for"...
... I read that scene, and just kind of leaned back in my chair and stared at a wall for awhile.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/08/31 20:14:32
Why does everyone hate Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels?
Dull, linear and cliched. It was so boring it felt like I was experiencing the story in real time. I am still at a loss as to how a writer can make the most mysterious and secretive legion seem so mundane.
I've also found it a bit grating that the books are used as a selling tool - Fire Raptor model comes out, Fire Raptors everywhere. Knight Titan comes out, Knights everywhere. I'm pretty sure there will be Cerastus Knights and Kharybdis Assault Claws in the next novel.
The best way to enjoy it is to know the "basics" and the theme, and then remember that it's a time of mythology and legends in M41. Just as we cannot attribute specific human foibles and traits to the figures of myth and legend in our own time (apart from those which make them tragic heroes), so, too, should it be with the Heresy.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
I don't see how an opinion about how prosaic the HH is, is relevant to the OP's question - other than the fact that they are stretching it out, so time scales are hard to gauge.
With that said, I'm going to be a hypocrite and say I don't mind the HH series; I don't quite expect Ulysses or Paradise Lost. I just read some of them for inspiration/following coolio characters. The BL has some fantastic authors, and whilst the HH series is inconsistent, some of the books are crackers.
Now that's out of my system, I'd say the HH series should be completed by 2020, fingers crossed. The rate at which the books are churned out has increased since the start, and Horus Rising was released in 06 - so 8 years of fluff has taken us OVER half way within the HH. There's not much for them left to write about; all the major things (Calth, Prime, Istvaan) has been covered, and they can't keep making completely new storylines. So I believe we're in the latter stages of the heresy. Though I know nothing, so I'm probably wrong
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/03 21:48:22
"And what are the achievements of your fragile Imperium? It is a corpse rotting slowly from within while maggots writhe in its belly. It was built with the toil of heroes and giants, and now it is inhabited by frightened weaklings to whom the glories of those times are half-forgotten legends."
Only in Death does Duty end 
3rd Company 
Bravo Two Seven "Ironhides" 
EAT - SLEEP - FARM - REPEAT 
