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Hi all,

In 6th edition, a common tactic for Ork burna boyz was to put them in a transport vehicle and have them fire out. Because Ork transports are/were open topped, they could all fire from the same point, meaning that if you had 10 burnas and your template covered 3 models, that translated into a whopping 30 strength 4 hits.

I have seen references in threads and tactical articles to this tactic no longer working due to changes to the shooting rules. However, the author of one page seems to think it still works (see http://www.3plusplus.net/2014/08/7th-edition-orks-codex-review-part-6-elites/), and when I looked it up in the rulebook, I could not find the change and I don't have it to hand.

Have the shooting rules changed in such a way? If so, how?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Having scrolled further down to the "comments" section of that page, I see that the new rule is that you can only damage the models actually covered by the template. Is that correct?

You can only remove models that are within the range of the weapon you are firing, so in this case, you could only remove models that are one "template" (about 8") from the (open-topped) vehicle you're firing out of, which makes this tactic less effective than it was in 5th and early 6th (before the shooting FAQ)

You'll also want to be careful because template weapons can be horridly effective against open topped vehicles. So if your opponent has flamers of any kind, they can return the gesture and actually kill the dudes inside the vehicle as well.

Overall, the Burna-Wagon has lost a lot of its luster, but it's for the better. I'm actually glad they made the template restriction since it actually benefits us as a whole. No longer can three or four templates that touch the front few kill many. They can only kill the one's they reach, and the rest of the wounds vanish once they are out of reach.

Cheers for the replies guys.

If I may go off on a bit of a tangient, this leads me to a second question:

I understand that models that are out of range of a particular weapon *type* being fired by the squad cannot be wounded by those weapons, and that I have to roll for each weapon type separately, e.g. a tactical marine squad would have to fire bolters first, then flamers, etc.

However...

What if there is "overlap" in terms of some models in the unit being within range of a particular type of gun (not a flamer) and some not?

For example:

I fire at some marines with a big blob of shoota boyz. All of my boyz are within firing range of *someone* in the marine squad. However, there are some guys at the back of his squad who are out of range of some of the guys towards the back of my squad, taken individually. Can I just roll all of my shoota shots simultaneously and allocate wounds from the nearest model going back, or do I have to figure out who is within range of which particular shoota, etc?

the Rules for measuring Ranges and any distances dictate that we use the two closest models within the Unit, unless otherwise specified by the Rule in question. Determining whom can fire a Weapon does require us to measure from each individual model in the firing Unit, but those measurements are still to the closest Enemy Unit and only matter for determining which models are forbidden from firing. Once that has been determined, any Wounds generated return to the default method of measuring to determine if they are in range: Closest model to closest model.

So checking to see which of my guys are "in range" only matters for the purposes of rolling to hit, and when it comes to allocating wounds, we just go from the closest models backwards? I think I get it. Cheers.

In some ways it is a bit counter-intuitive, but I suppose they have to streamline it so that the shooting phase doesn't take six hours.

Indeed,
Just Allocate the Wounds to the closest Enemy Model till one reaches the maximum range, measured from the closest firing Model, or runs out of Wounds.

JinxDragon wrote:
...Once that has been determined, any Wounds generated return to the default method of measuring to determine if they are in range: Closest model to closest model.

This is incorrect.

Out of Range
"If none of the firing models are in range of a particular model in the target unit, then wounds can not be allocated to it."

You determine range to each individual enemy model from the models actually firing.

 Krusha wrote:
So checking to see which of my guys are "in range" only matters for the purposes of rolling to hit, and when it comes to allocating wounds, we just go from the closest models backwards? I think I get it. Cheers.

In some ways it is a bit counter-intuitive, but I suppose they have to streamline it so that the shooting phase doesn't take six hours.

To clarify.... If you have a front model that is in range of 10 enemy models, and you have some rear guys that are only in range of 2 enemy models... then if you get enough hits/wounds, you can keep allocating until all 10 models are dead. The only important info: 1) How many of your guys are in range of at least one bad guy. 2) Which bad guys are in range of at least one of your guys. There is no correlating which of your guys is killing which bad guy.


For burnas in an OT vehicle... remember that range is not the same as where you place the template. To get max hits you may place all 10 templates in the same spot, but every enemy model (in that unit) that is within 8" of the vehicle is 'in range'. (8" being the length of the flamer template.)

And how do you measure that range?
From the Enemy Model being Allocated the Wound, assuming default that would be the closest Enemy Model, to the closest Model which hasn't some other Restriction preventing them from being used for measuring purposes. Given that the core of my statement was to measure between the two closest models involved in the equation, I still am not seeing where this is incorrect. I do see where it could be better stated, for example while I did not feel the need to point out that secondary Restrictions might change the default state I probably should of done so. If a Restriction prevents a Model from being used for measurement purposes, such as Line of Sight requirements within Wound Allocation, then it stands to reason that we do not include that individual Model within measurements.
Instead we measure to the next closest model....

Given that we are not required to keep track of which models 'hit and missed' during the sequence, just the end result of how many Wounds are generated, it would not be possible to even begin to try and measure to each individual Model to determine Range. Without knowing if Wound X was caused by Model A, the closest we can come to determining if the Enemy is within range is to measure to the closest model that hasn't already been disqualified thanks to some other secondary Restriction. This brings us back to what I keep reminding people when it comes to measurements between Units: Closest model to closest model is the way to go, though again a disclaimer that certain Models might not be part of the equation thanks to Rules and Restrictions and those clearly do not count when it comes to measuring.

After all:
If seven models were determined to be 'in range' before we even got to the Wound Allocation step, a veritable we need to know before we even roll the To Hits, then all those seven will be able to shoot. It is completely irrelevant that six of the seven only have range to a single individual model in that Target Unit, they are still generating To Wound rolls. When it comes to Allocate the Wounds created, if that seventh model had range to three enemy models and was armed with a single Shot Weapon, there is still nothing preventing all three Enemy Models from being removed as Casualties. It doesn't matter that logically two of the three Enemy Models are only in range to a Single firing Model, because that model is the closest Model and all measurements will be calculated from that one Model because of it.

@Jinx - never mind - I thought you were saying that the whole target unit was in range if the closest model was. Chalk it up as 'Monday Morning on the first coffee of the day' syndrome.

Honestly, I was pondering how to explain it better because I was sure I was simply failing the explanation... common no matter how much editing and re-wording I might do.
Besides I had one of those moments only an hour ago myself....

The practical problem with that strategy are two rule-changes since its peak in 5th:

1) The first one is the rule discussed here, if your flamers can't reach it, you can't kill it. However, getting an entire unit within about 8" does not seem much of problem for a vehicle, except...
2) You can only move a vehicle 6" and still fire templates out of it (used to be 12" in 5th)

For those reasons, it's hard to actually catch a lot of models with a burna wagon. It's power was simply touching three or four models and make an entire guard blob/gaunt horder/ork mob disappear. In theory you now have to drive the wagon right in to the enemy unit, wait a turn, then follow them 6" to wherever they moved away from you and then scorch them. In practice, the enemy unit will assault your wagon and destroy it, leaving you with a bunch of overcosted boyz out in the open.

I think that disembarking is a new step in the burna wagon. I was thinking about this yesterday during a game. Move 6", disembark 6" and fan out to get the best coverage with all the templates. That's still a decent threat range. Pull up to the side to get the best disembark placement. Sure, they're exposed on foot but vaping a squad of mostly whatever is priceless.