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Hello!

So, bringing in an inquisitor could be an excellent way of helping out with the turn 1 deep strike.
All of the basic inquisitors can take 3 servo skulls for a total of 34pts.

OM inq can also take termie armour and a psycannon to bulk out your firepower, or pay a bit extra to become a psyker and all the benefits that entails.

Guaranteeing that 1st turn reserve roll is extremely important too.

An OX with a conversion beamer, 3 servo skulls, parked in an ADL with a comms relay would set you back 149 pts, re-rolling reserves and providing some long-range support, but is it worth the cost? Maybe careful placing of the ADL plus the Liber Heresius for scout, and teaming him up with a squad of 4 psycannon purgators? The scout and ADL could get them into a useful position. About 325 pts. Or swap out conversion Beamer for a roll on divination and prescience for the purgators.

The hoping for a good reserves re-roll from the warlord traits seems lik too much of a gamble :(

Strategy gives you one chance (so just worse that 1/3 chance with re-roll) but master of ambush provides a similar effect.

inquisitorial warlord traits have only one option which could help.

Same with GK warlord traits (FttF)

Anyone have any thoughts on how to maximise the effectiveness of the NSF detachment? Any strategies to go with it?

Also which units to include in this alpha strike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To avoid using a HS slot on the Purgation Squad, a combat squadded purifier squad could have its psycannons split out and the remainder put in a rhino.

Servo Skulls are most useful if you get the first turn. Otherwise, your opponent can simply move to within 6" of them to pop them during their first turn.

The real problem with the detachment is trying to guarantee that first turn deep strike. It's not like Deathwing where you just choose to automatically bring it all in, you have to roll, and, if you roll like I do, you'll be lucky to get half your stuff even if you only need to roll a 3+ for each unit. And coming in piecemeal like that is doomed to fail.

One possibility I was thinking of was a Bastion with a Vindicare inside it (making use of one of the higher up firepoints) and a Comms Relay, but that comes to 245pts.

Another, if allied Space Marines are used, is either a Damocles Command Rhino for cheap (alter reserve rolls by +1/-1), or a Land Raider Proteus with Explorator Augury Web (reroll reserve rolls).

another option is to ally in Imperial Guard, take a Company command squad with a master of the fleet, and thats +1 to all reserve rolls. little more expensive then the inqusitor option but if you're going for an IG allied detachment anyway it's a cheap option.

What sort of points for a valid CAD?

 pocketcanoe wrote:
What sort of points for a valid CAD?

200 for a company command squad and 2 vetern squads.


If you're willing to take the IG as an allied detachment it's only 140 points.

this also means you can take some additional guard units as well to cover deficancies in the grey Knights.


335 points could net you the command squad with master of the fleet, a vetern squad and a triple battery of Wyvrens for hoard clearing.

BrianDavion wrote:
another option is to ally in Imperial Guard, take a Company command squad with a master of the fleet, and thats +1 to all reserve rolls. little more expensive then the inqusitor option but if you're going for an IG allied detachment anyway it's a cheap option.

And then put those guys in a bastion with a comms relay and bring all your guys in on a 1+. (The opponent could still theoretically have things to stop you like their own master of the fleet.)

Mavnas wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
another option is to ally in Imperial Guard, take a Company command squad with a master of the fleet, and thats +1 to all reserve rolls. little more expensive then the inqusitor option but if you're going for an IG allied detachment anyway it's a cheap option.

And then put those guys in a bastion with a comms relay and bring all your guys in on a 1+. (The opponent could still theoretically have things to stop you like their own master of the fleet.)

maybe but a bastion's a bit pricyy points wise, but an ADL with comms relay is only what 75 points?

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Servo Skulls are most useful if you get the first turn. Otherwise, your opponent can simply move to within 6" of them to pop them during their first turn.

If you don't win first turn you can always place the skulls a little more conservatively. Even concentrate on one flank. They are placed immediately before deployment.

You could place them along the centre line and still have their AOE skim the opponent's deployment zone. If they are that eager to run towards your deployment, we still have a bunch of mid- range firepower to answer that.

I think you are forgetting that in the new stronghold assault book, you can purchase a Comms Relay as a fortification in it's own right.

Technically, you can get a 25p inquisitor with servoskulls and a lone 20p comms relay to set up somewhere out of LoS or (if you are playing on a football field) in the deepest corner of the board with inquisitor bunkering behind it. It should only set you back 54points this way.

But yeah, I like the sound of ADL with allied IG CCS with master of the fleet more. Sets you back 150 points though. But it would fix the lack of bodies and long range guns that GKs typically have.

If you take that, a blob, some HWT and then some armor or other ordanance as ally slot, you can still get a good firebase with the Nemesis strike formation putting pressure on the enemy very early in the game.

I just read about that comms relay over on another thread. Surely that can't be right; re-roll reserves, reduced scatter for 54 points? That makes the NSF Detatchment crazy-good.

The comms relay cannot be purchased on its own. While it is classed as "battlefield debris" for rules purposes, it is specifically only purchasable as a fortification upgrade.

It says this for battlefield debris:

"The following list summarises the rules for battlefield debris that can be purchased as an upgrade to a fortification, or as fortifications in their own right."


Going by that wording, one would assume you could just get a comms relay or even a quad cannon as a stand-alone. It makes sense.... My imperial stronghold set did come with seperate bases for the cannons as loose entities... So technically, you can purchase only 1 fortification, but just a mix of battlefield debris and barricades is a perfectly fine option as a fortication according to this.

That still doesn't work. Again, while the relay is classed as battlefield debris, it is listed as purchasable (as in, it has a points value) specifically only under the fortification upgrades section.

That "or" statement in the battlefield debris heading is because some of them can be purchased separately, as allowed for in their actual list entries (like defense lines).

That's one way of looking at it... But RAW, I don't think there's a problem with just taking one.

Sure, the points cost is only listed under the upgrade section. But if it later goes on (in the rules themselves I might add) to say that you can take things as fortifications in their own right (only the devs who wrote this know what that OR implies)... I would assume you could.

The only reason you say you can't, is because you interpret that OR in a different way than the other way it can be interpreted. And as far as I know, I didn't see it mentioned in the FAQ anywhere.

In any case, worst case scenario, it'll cost you another 55p for a bunker to put your model in safely, or a ADL for 50p. But again, this shouldn't be needed.

I had a look to try to find a fault with that, but yea,page 19, it does state that any of the battlefield debris may be taken as a fortification in its own right. I can't see any other reason for them to include that line other than to allow this, since they would have simply just said "The following list summarises the rules for battlefield debris" and stopped there otherwise.

It's a bit of a leap to claim that a sentence from the Battlefield Debris section saying that some things from that section can be taken on their own means that you can take a Coms Relay on its own. You still don't have permission to purchase items from the fortification upgrades list without first purchasing a fortification.

Why not? It friggin says so right there on page 19.

"It's a bit of a leap to read that sentence and then do as it says..."

The only reason why it never occured to me before, is because 6th had some fortifications in the rulebook. And you definitely couldn't in the 6th Rulebook.

Since 7th, they pretty much "forced" you to buy stronghold assault to use fortifications. And that book pretty much states that you can take it stand alone. Things changed in 7th... So why is it such a huuuuuuge leap that this changed too with the new edition?

It's not like this edition doesn't scream out: "oh feth it, do as you want..." already.

Hell, the most recent SM codex (and GK one as well I might add) allows you to buy empty dedicated transports from the FA choice... Why wouldn't this be allowed...

I'm not saying it's unreasonable for 7th edition. I'm just saying that RAW I'm not seeing where you have permission to purchase an item from fortification upgrades as a stand-alone.

I don't have the Stronghold Assault book so I'm only going on what has been said.

It's really not just any odd line. It LITERALLY says this in the first paragraph of the rules for battlefield debris:

"The following list summarises the rules for battlefield debris that can be purchased as an upgrade to a fortification, or as fortifications in their own right."

That is the p19 that Amiricle refered to as well.

Now don't get me wrong, when I read that line for the first time, I too had a "well I'll be damned..." initial first thought. But the longer I think about that (and the other crazy things you can now do in 7th), it really isn't all that strange anymore...

What items are in that list? Are any of them normally fortifications in their own right? If so then that is probably all they meant, is that some of those items can be purchased as fortifications. It isn't giving you permission to do so with everything in that list, especially since points costs are not listed there.

only the ADL. And the argument that points cost aren't listed is very moot. NONE of the points costs are listed in the rules.
Anyway, a second reason why I think it really might just have been the designers intent that you can just use these as you see fit (you know, to forge your own narrative), is really not far fetched. I've included the fluff stuff if it hints at a "yeah, this means you don't need an army to bring a formal fortress to use it".

But for completeness sake: the items mentioned in the battlefield debris list (again, stating on top that you can take them as fortifications in their own right).

Ammunition dump

Barricades and walls (Barricades and walls are hastily assembled obstacles or the remains of once proud structures)

Comms Relay (A working comms relay can be crucial to the coordination of reserves, and therefore to a swift victory.)

Defence Lines

Gun emplacement (though abandoned, this gun battery still functions)

Imperial statuary

Tanglewire

Tank traps

Wreckage and Rubble





Only that last one is something that cannot be purchased from the point list on the section before. And even the fluff descriptions hint at narratives that would allow you to use these things as perfectly fine stand alones (hastily assembled or just plain lucky that there's an abandoned gun emplacement there or a working Comms Relay).

Well, for friendly games it's probably fine. It's not many points to purchase an ADL anyway. But before you go to a tournament I'd ask the TO with his opinion so you don't get called out during a game.

Wow, so it seems to be RAW that you can take the comms relay on it's own, but my feeling is that it's an oversight as the power to re-roll reserves is costed much higher (or less reliably) elsewhere in the literature.

20 points is DIRT cheap for re-rolling reserves, and feels 'cheaty' when used along with the NSF. Rites of Teleportation seems to be a rule written by someone unaware of a 20 point 'fix'. Having said that - the 9 points worth of servo skulls on a 25pt inquisitor was already well established and doesn't feel 'cheaty' at all to fix the other half of RoT.

Anyway, i'd like to steer the topic back to tactics rather than rules interpretation

clearly, a 54 point upgrade to RoT is a killer solution, and must-take.

i think the 34 point skulls inquisitor plus ADL plus Comms Relay (124) is a bit steep for lower points games, but pretty affordable in higher points games.

If that package could be integrated into a list to make it more than a purchase that only provides special rules, that would be ideal.

thoughts?

Servo Skulls are nice but requiring an Inquisition detachment is a burden. Is there a Space Marine variant that can give Teleport Homers to a unit with Scout or Infiltrate? If so then I'd build a detachment with that plus the Comms Relay.

additionally, some quick numbers:

re-rolling reserves changes a 2/3 probability of a unit coming in turn 1 to a 8/9 prob. 89% of your DS reserves will come in turn 1 instead of 67%.

is this worth either a 20 pt or 70 pt upgrade?


what about the scatter inquisitor?

1/3 of the time you dont scatter anyway. the rest of the time a servo skull will reduce your DS scatter between 1 and 6 inches. your average scatter (if you scatter) will go from most likely 7" to a widely varying 3.5"

is all that worth 34 points? you're still relying on your servo-skull placement, your opponent not removing them etc., but you can probably risk deepstriking in some narrower gaps than otherwise, and closer to a table edge.
i suppose that depends on the amount of terrain you can expect in your meta.

finally, we can do this run-and-gun which seems huge! how does that factor into all this?

Well, you say 20p for rerolls on reserves is a ton? I think a master of the fleet (who can make it a 2+) is only 20 points. So it's not THAT weird.

Scatter inquisitor isn't THAT needed, like you already pointed out.

Perhaps a better choice would be a cheap inquisitor with 3 melta servitors, 3 melta henchmen in a chimera with a mystic for those scatters and a psyker for a cheap dice? Slap a liber heresius on the inquisitor to move it up 12" first turn, and you are in quite deep for reliable deepstrikes.

That type of henchman unit would cost 187 points, but brings with it some much needed melta/ AP1. However... it's a very risky strategy outside turn 1 start... unless you get a really good spot to hide the chimera.

As a final point: Run and gun isn't that usefull if you ever face some riptides with early warning system. You'll get eaten alive before you land.

I like the formation, but as a stand alone army, it's very subjected to what enemy you face. It's got a few very prevalent hard counters out there right now...

As an allied force, it can prove to be really good. AM seems to benefit from it mostly and both forces compliment eachother really nicely... Almost everything in AM outside of their vehicles is objective secured and hard to shift. So I think we'll see good use out of the Nemesis strike force detachment, but maybe not as viable as a stand alone tactic.

Slapping the mandatory Librarian into a AM blob to give them ATSKNF should be sick too.

Well, you say 20p for rerolls on reserves is a ton?

Nope, i said it was dirt cheap. and 3+ re-roll is even better than 2+. having said that, the master of the fleet can probably do other stuff. a comms relay may as well not be on the board once you've paid for the re-rolls.

Run and gun isn't that usefull if you ever face some riptides with early warning system. You'll get eaten alive before you land.

Don't they need LoS to use interceptor? If you're using run and gun in combo with servo skull, you're much better prepared to DS behind terrain, then pop out for shots. or hide and assault turn 2 which is the earlies assault we can manage anyway.

yeah.... I had a brainfart there... 20p is cheap, but not insanely cheap when you consider things like the master of the fleet (who can also increase the roll for the enemy iirc).



Well, with true LoS, I've not seen it happen that a model the size of a riptide can't sneak a peak over the intervening stuff... not to mention that it's got a huge range and a S8AP2 pieplate. It's almost meant to tackle DSing termies.

A riptide will rise over most of the first floor of building. Besides, if you are forced to DS somewhere remote, you might as well not bother and just footslog it across the table... The whole point is to get as much of an advantageous angle/attack point as possible.

It's really fun to consider the full DS army. Flavorful, fun to play, fast paced especially with shunt moves after the DS,... But right now, the somewhat competitive scene has a few too many hard counters in the meta to make it viable in it's own right.

Riptides and grav centurions are the first ones that spring to my mind... Along with maybe grav bikes. The GK armory has almost no methods to deal with this effectively. Our severe lack of AP1/2 also makes us unable to deal with such threats adequately before they turn our handfull of models into mush. :(