Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Swabby wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
You can shoot at enemy models that are in base to base contact with friendly mecha.

Only if it is not engaged in hand to hand combat. The idea here is that you are essentially mitigating the firepower of whatever mecha is midfield and putting it into a situation where it really can't do anything while you use it for cover and a LOS blocker to the rest of the army. If someone pulled this off correctly it would be incredibly difficult for the opponent to counter, especially if the mecha that was tied up was something large like a Monster.

I see what you're saying. I believe that's why the Life Is Cheap rule exists. So, for Zentraedi, only the engaged mecha can't shoot but every other mecha on the table can shoot into the engagement. Plus if it's really that bad, you spend a CP to walk away and then every mecha blasts that Valkyrie.

 Swabby wrote:

If a Valkyrie fighter zooms up into B2B with a Regult A, not only can Regult A shoot at the Valkyrie fighter (as they're not engaged, so can use weapon systems), but Regult B and C all the way through Regult 255 can shoot at the Valkyrie fighter (provided LOS exists)

The idea is that the first valkyrie that moves into btb does engage it because it is not in fighter mode. That same valkyrie will then go fighter on its next turn and proceed deep into the enemy ranks. The rest of the valks use the engaged models as cover and LOS blockage in what otherwise would have been open terrain.

I think you may be overestimating the size of the models. They're roughly the size of Battletech models and I can't remember an instance during Alpha Strike where any mechs were moved to block LOS in such a way. However, your example also assumes that the Zentraedi player does not act at all between the Valkyrie going B2B in B/G and then on the next turn switching to F and leaving combat. There's an entire turn where a whole horde of Regults could be shooting at the Valkyrie (either using Life is Cheap or after the model that the Valk engaged spends a CP to saunter away) which is now out in the open, flapping in the breeze.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly for your concerns is why I believe the "CP to walk away from combat" rule exists, so that those old 40k 3rd edition style mass-of-models-locked-in-combat-forever-and-no-one-can-shoot-at-it-and-nothing-happens-for-five-turns events doesn't happen.

@Swabby: TBH what you described just sounds like tactical movement and not cheating or beardy stuff. I guess I need a clearer definition of beardy from you? Anyway, it is par for the course with or without the Aircraft special rule or the FAQs sentences I proposed:

 Swabby wrote:
The rest of the valks use the engaged models as cover and LOS blockage in what otherwise would have been open terrain.

 Manchu wrote:
An engaged mecha cannot be attacked by other models with weapon systems. Y and Z cannot attack A with their weapon systems but they should be able to attack B and C with their weapon systems as long as they can draw LOS on B and C. AFAIK it does not matter than X is engaged in H2H with A; X is still a friendly mecha in the same squadron as Y and Z -- therefore Y and Z can draw LOS to targets through X. So B and C only have cover to the extent that A blocks LOS to B and C, which would be the case regardless of the Aircraft special rule.

Life is cheap is one mitigating scenario for the presented situation but your opponent will not always be Zentradi. For instance malcontents (uedf type) and other UEDF players will not have that special ability.

Manchu I suppose that it could be considered smart tactical movement within the rules but to be able to move in this fashion across the field in a swift manner with almost no risk seems off to me. I certainly do not see it as cheating, just a rather cheesy tactic that isn't really in the spirit of the show.

This would be mitigated totally if in the spirit of not being able to attack aircraft in hth also meant that the were high enough in the air that ground based (non aircraft) mecha did not block LOS to aircraft models.

I honestly don't think it's much of a problem at all. In many other comparable miniatures games, being in H2H provides some sort of magical field where no one can fire into combat or escape it. With this ruleset, Life Is Cheap allows shooting and even if you're playing Malcontents or you are Spacy, you merely spend a CP to saunter away and then you (and everyone else with LOS) blasts the offender to atoms in the following combat phase. Remember, every mecha generates a CP, so it's not like it's being wasted, you get at least one for every mecha you have.

 Swabby wrote:
to move in this fashion across the field in a swift manner with almost no risk seems off to me

 judgedoug wrote:
you merely spend a CP to saunter away and then you (and everyone else with LOS) blasts the offender to atoms in the following combat phase

Sounds like an excellent use of CP and a major risk worth considering before trying that tactic in a given instance.

My issue with it (albeit a minor one) is that the enemy nonaircraft player is the only one penalized in the scenario.

This did get me thinking though, what happens if the enemy mecha is surrounded by enemy models in btb contact? At that point if they spend the CP to disengage, do they reengage immediately?

 Swabby wrote:
My issue with it (albeit a minor one) is that the enemy nonaircraft player is the only one penalized in the scenario.

I wouldn't call it exactly penalized, especially as the enemy mecha can drop the CP and take a step back and blast the mecha trying to do that right in the face. But I suppose we'll see once we all start playing

 Swabby wrote:

This did get me thinking though, what happens if the enemy mecha is surrounded by enemy models in btb contact? At that point if they spend the CP to disengage, do they reengage immediately?

Sounds like a beatdown to me. Actually probably a viable tactic for a Regult pile to drown a Tomahawk with a series of kicks and stomps and powerthighs or whatever all those CC attacks are called.

Powerthigh should be a valid move. Haha

Sorry, it is hard for me to visualize without precise language.

A = VF-1A
X, Y, and Z = Regults

A is in Guardian mode and B2B with X, Y, and Z. Who is spending CP to step away in your scenario?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
POWERTHIGH!

 Manchu wrote:
Sorry, it is hard for me to visualize without precise language.

A = VF-1A
X, Y, and Z = Regults

A is in Guardian mode and B2B with X, Y, and Z. Who is spending CP to step away in your scenario?

He's saying that A is totally surrounded by S T U V W X Y Z Regults, so that disengaging wouldn't matter is there is literally no where to move to as A is surrounded by B2B. Err, and A can't be a Valkyrie for this to work (Switch to Fighter, leave). A would be a Spartan, for example.

STU VAW XYZ

If A is completely surrounded by mecha in B2B contact, A has no move regardless of being engaged in H2H combat. Those mecha could all be firendly and A would still have no move.

Right, A spends the CP (alot because they are surrounded) to disengage but cannot move because there literally is nowhere to move. Does A stay unengaged for the rest of their turn or does reengagement occur immediately?

And actually I just reread the engagement rule. Spending CP to disenage costs 1 CP for each enemy mecha in base to base contact. So an aircraft can drive up the CP cost to disenage without actually engaging the model. It mentions nothing about having to be engaged with the model to up the price, just base to base enemy mecha.

 Swabby wrote:
A spends the CP (alot because they are surrounded) to disengage

Spending the CP does not cancel being engaged; it allows the engaged mecha to "move out of base to base contact with the other mecha."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swabby wrote:
So an aircraft can drive up the CP cost to disenage without actually engaging the model.

Good point. This merits an additional line in the FAQ for the Aircraft Special Rule:

A mecha does not have to pay a Command Point to move out of base to base contact with an aircraft.

Thats what I get for not reading the rule before posting after running off on a mental tangent.

I fully agree with the additional line of the aircraft rule. Otherwise the previously mentioned scenario with the valk squad really does penalize the opposing player.

You pay one CP per unit. So if you are engaged with 3 Regults you must pay 3 CP's to back out of the HTH. This is only effective in smaller games where the UEDF has a very small pool of Command Points.

Did you guys finalize the Aircraft HTH verbiage yet?

@Mike1975:

Here's what we have for H2H generally:

A mecha cannot make hand to hand attacks against an enemy mecha that cannot be considered engaged in hand to hand combat.

And here are the FAQ sentences for the Aircraft Special Rule:

A mecha is never considered to be engaged in hand to hand combat because of being in base to base contact with an aircraft.

A mecha does not have to pay a Command Point to move out of base to base contact with an aircraft.

Awesome, ready for another one?

Lay it on us!

gotta get a few things done quick, give me a little time

Mike you tease!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also mike the powerthigh move is effective in all games if you use enough battlepods.

yeah, I got a quick file that has to be checked and sent to the boss...

Correction/Modification
Deadly Terrain - Deadly terrain is an area that is very dangerous to move through. Deadly terrain can’t be moved into or across on purpose. Some examples could include a field of lava or a radioactive wasteland. Players may want to specify whether Deadly Terrain will affect units with Flight or Aircraft since some units my fly high enough to ignore the terrain. Example: A volcano flue spewing exhaust may be something that players decide to use in a way as to still damage Aircraft flying over it but a lava flow or fast flowing rapid will not damage craft flying over the terrain. Players should specify before starting a game.

Should a figure end up in an area of deadly terrain because of a body block or other game effect, it will suffer 1D6 MD each turn (during the resolution step of its activation) until the figure leaves that terrain. Treat the deadly terrain as rough terrain while moving out of it.

What is the issue there?

Whether some types of deadly terrain should exist that prevents overflight by by units with Flight or not. You can have terrain that will damage something flying over it if it is too close and since flying is supposed to be nape of earth....

Not a massive deal.

Okay the rule itself seems fine. The example is the potential problem. If a mecha does not "touch" deadly terrain, does it count as deadly terrain to them?

This seems like a scenario-specific issue rather than a general rules question. In one scenario, the lava may be too hot for aircraft flying the nape of the Earth. Perhaps the lava is cooler in another scenario.

If anything the FAQ could be (similar to what you wrote):

Players should determine before the game begins whether a certain terrain feature counts as deadly terrain for all mecha or only for certain mecha (e.g., those without the Aircraft or Flight special rules).

Page 24. "Flight - A mecha with the Flight ability ignores all movement restrictions or penalties from terrain and may freely move over mecha, scenery pieces(?), buildings and other structures....
A flying mecha isn't actually touching the ground, so it treats all terrain as open terrain... "

seems pretty cut and dry to me.

I'd say that if there were to be special dangerous terrain that did affect flyers, it'd be a scenario specific special rule.

So maybe a clause that some scenarios special terrain could apply or apply the clause ONLY within the scenario?

Mike1975 wrote:
So maybe a clause that some scenarios special terrain could apply or apply the clause ONLY within the scenario?

I'd say just leave any special rules in the scenario that uses them and don't overburden the basic rules with extra stuff.

IMO that kind of thing belongs in the scenario rules not the general rulebook or FAQ.

OK, let me get a few things done and I'll throw another one out.

Correction
When a figure is struck by a ranged attack, it may attempt to Dodge that strike. To do so, the target figure’s player spends a Command Point, then rolls a D6 and then adds the figures Piloting (PIL) attribute. Note: The attacks from units that attack while in Close Formation count as a single attack and require the expenditure of only a single Command Point and only one Dodge roll is made for all of the attacks made in this manner. If a Squadron is split into 2 or more groups that are in Close Formation with each other, each group is counted as a single attack. If the results is equal to, or greater than, the result of the attacker’s roll to Strike (including all applicable bonuses and penalties to the roll to Strike) then the targeted figure successfully avoids the attack and all of the Mega-Damage (MD) that the strike would have caused is avoided. A figure may only attempt to Dodge each strike once. Dodging an attack mean that the target was able to get out of the way or duck back behind cover in time and takes No damage from the ranged attack.

Ok, dodge, the idea is there but needs clarification for players. Close Formation is not well explained.