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Welp, now I can finally live my dream of a squadron of fifty Glaug Eldare's swarming Macross city and pimp slapping all the lightpoles down!

I could totally see it charging into mecha body block style.

Or a veritech slamming into a battlepod or Glaug and then transforming to attack him in HTH afterwards. Honestly if you Body Block with a Glaug-Eldare, you are stupid, the arm cannons can do so much more damage.

Khyron would do it. Sometimes you just gotta prove you are a crazy badass like they say you are.

So, assuming that you can attack an aircraft in hth as enagement isn't necessary as written what happens when Pulus Mjor brings out his beatstick?

Pulus Mjor pg 68:

In addition to the normal MD for the club attack the shock baton reduces the enemy mecha's speed to zero (0) and prevents it from spending any command points to leave HtH combat.

Is this guy the RRT flyswatter? Does the aircraft crash? Did my head just explode?

I reckon you all deserve a stern powerthighing.

But I am chagrined that none of us thought to look at the Glaug-Eldare entry for 3+ pages of discussion in each thread.

The G-E is a mecha in front and a party in the back an aircraft in the back. Giving it H2H attacks and the Aircraft special rule makes a lot of sense when you look at its picture.

It makes less sense when you look at the rules for H2H combat and the Aircraft special rule. Or think about how something flying with a space shuttle rocket strapped to its ass could throw punches. As we have exhaustively discussed.

In other words, I don't think this corner case invalidates all the discussion we have had or the conclusions we have reached. After all, it would mean that every other aircraft -- you know, all the ARMLESS ones -- can also throw punches and pause in their jet flight to make parries.

If anything, I would say the G-E needs FAQing and right in the booster for good measure. Or its arms, whichever. In other words, I think it should lose its H2H attacks or lose Aircraft.

The armless ones say HtH attacks: none though. They could still parry.

I probably deserve a powerthigh attack.

 Swabby wrote:
Does the aircraft crash? Did my head just explode?

Clearly his ability means everything reasonable about the movement rules must be the opposite! That's the logic we are applying regarding the G-E, after all.

 Swabby wrote:
They could still parry.

With what? Their fuselage? That is called "getting hit" not parrying.

"I just punched you in the jaw."

"No, what happened is my jaw parried your fist."

I am not saying they should be able to parry, just that they could.

Honestly they should be able to dodge. But you can only dodge bullets lasers and missiles in RRT so thats what it is.

RAW specifies parrying = blocking H2H attacks. Now before you say let's just FAQ that business, remember: The only reason an aircraft would need to dodge H2H attacks is if a mecha could make H2H attacks on it. So it comes out to one dumb rule giving birth to another dumb rule. In fact the whole family is silly: Throwing punches at jets is dumb. Jets blocking punches is dumb. Jets throwing punches is dumb, even when jets have arms.

I will 100% agree that in an atmoshpere this family of rules appears dumb. In space however, in the context of the show not so much.

I could totally see Britai smacking aircraft around with a big pipe while admiring the stars on his nightly stroll outside the ship.

 Swabby wrote:

I could totally see Britai smacking aircraft around with a big pipe while admiring the stars on his nightly stroll outside the ship.

After all, he is not built as weakly as everything else.

OK, so it is one attack one CP and one dodge roll like you guys said. I'm going to post a bunch of rules to play with tonight since I'll be out of internet touch for a bit and if you guys can work on them together and come up with the proper wording.

Mike1975 wrote:
OK, so it is one attack one CP and one dodge roll like you guys said.

Encouraging news!

Did you hear anything about Aircraft making melee attacks? If they can do so, does that mean a mecha B2B with an enemy aircraft is engaged?

Ok, the last few ones that MAY need clarification that I can think of.

1. We've done LOS

2. We've done Aircraft and HtH (Ignore the Glaug-Eldare for now since it's wave 2 and we have a while. Let's do the rest first.

3. Blast Attacks - Present Rules allows Missiles to hit any spot from my interpretation. So you could maximize targets with Blast missiles. I think it would be more appropriate to have missiles be required to target a unit or a terrain feature such as a specific tree or building so that limits them just a bit BUT allows non-missile blast weapons like the Monster an additional advantage in that they can be targeted at a specific spot.

Not a required change but something that came to mind.

Correction/Modification
Weapon systems with the Blast ability cause huge explosions that have the chance of damaging not only the target figure or location, but also other figures or structures nearby. When a figure makes a Blast attack, the roll to Strike is made as normal to see if it hits its intended target. Direct fire weapons such as the cannons on the Monster can be targeted to hit any spot or location at a DF of 5. Missiles with the Blast trait must be fired at a terrain feature such as a tree or building or at a unit such as an enemy mecha and the blast template is centered over the target. Missiles with the Blast trait cannot normally be targeted at a specific spot such as a corner of a building or spot on the ground. Missiles with the Indirect Fire and Blast traits can be targeted at a specific spot at a DF of 6.

4. Blast weapons could scatter back over the attacker if I read the rules right and units hit by a blast can shield other units so another blast related possible fix for you guys to discuss.

Correction/Modification?????
Now determine which figure (if any) are struck and damaged as outlined above for when a Blast attack hits, based on the new location of the Blast template. Any figures on the new location can attempt to Dodge, but must equal or exceed the original Strike roll for the Blast attack. Note: Both friendly and enemy figures can be hit and damaged by the scattered Blast attack. Also take note that Blast attacks hit a defined area. If a blast attack hits a unit on the ground and units with Flight are within the blast area roll D6. On a result of a 4 to 6 that unit is also hit by the blast. Units with both Flight and Aircraft under the blast marker are hit only on a result of a 6 on a D6. The opposite will also be in effect. If the blast was targeted at one or more Aircraft then any other units with only Flight that are within the blast marker are hit on a 4-6 on a roll of a D6. Any land based units incapable of flight may be too far below the aircraft above then to be effected by the blast and will only take damage on a roll of a 6 on a single D6. One roll is made for each and every blast marker that the target is under.

5. Skirmish Rules, just a rewrite/clarification

Skirmish games use the Standard Scenarios and are intended to be played with small forces. The set up for a skirmish game is performed in the normal way outlined earlier in these rules, except for the forces used. First both players will choose a total points value for the units they wish to use for the game. This is typically somewhere between 50 and 100 points and usually never more than 200. Instead of Core Force Cards combined with Support and Special Cards, each player simply chooses any number of Support Cards or Special Cards totaling up to his point total and uses those mecha. Note: Faction Cards are not used in Skirmish games. Mecha with the Life is Cheap special ability do not have that ability in skirmish games. Mecha that normally have the Life is Cheap trait will only generate one command point for every 3 units in a skirmish game, rounding up. Zentraedi infantry only generate one Command Point for every 4 infantry, rounding up. Some sample skirmish squadrons that could face off against each other are:

1 VF-1S VS. 3 Nousjadeul-Ger
2 VF-1As VS. 6 Regults
2 Tomahawks VS. 3 Gnerls

6. Vehicles and HTH. So for now the convoy truck could be considered scenario specific, let's assume that we are making rules for the addition of vehicles long term.

7. Small ammo clarification that someone suggested

Ammo – Some weapons systems carry a relatively small amount of ammo and don’t have enough shots available to them to be used comfortably throughout the game. A weapon system with ammo may only be used to attack a number of times equal to the number listed after Ammo (e.g. “Ammo 3”). When a figure attacks with the weapon system, the player must mark off one ammo for that weapon system on its Force Card. Once all of the ammo has been used, that weapon system has run out of ammo and it cannot be used again during the rest of the game.

That's all I had as far as possible fixes for you all. Good luck and thanks. I'm going to push for a finished FAQ for the next update so that people will have it before things reach their doorstep.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Please add anything else that may have been missed after you guys hack these ones out


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll see if I can get them to send a few sprues to me just to mail to you all for your help.

Mike1975 wrote:
I'll see if I can get them to send a few sprues to me just to mail to you all for your help.

Thanks! That would be awesome!

Guys, I thought of something that may take care of most of the Aircraft H2H and Vehicle problem.

Just say, "A mecha with no Hand to Hand Attacks listed on their profile cannot be engaged or make Strikes in Hand to Hand Combat."

I still don't like it. I am now totally in the camp that an aircraft can, and should be attackable with a HtH attack.

The G-E might be the only aircraft with HtH attacks right now, but it certainly will not remain the case in the future. That in addition with there being no signifigant distinction between battles in atmosphere and space makes this case even stronger IMO.

When we start getting into other eras, especially new generation and sentinels, there will be way more aircraft capable of HtH attacks.,

Mike, it doesn't matter if it is a wave two mecha, it is important right now. If you can hit an aircraft people need to know now, as aircraft will be in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also don't mind being a camp of one. I am used to that.

I'm still on the fence with HtH and Aircraft. At most only units with Flight should get an attack. How about ONLY units with Aircraft AND Afterburner cannot be attacked? That means basically straight out fighters like the VT and Gnerl and also the Glaug-Eldare are moving so fast as to avoid effective HtH attacks but units with just Flying like a Veritech in Guardian or Battloid or a FPA can?

But then they Can attack another unit in HtH is they wish as they fly by IF they have HtH attacks listed on the stats. This means things like the Invid Booster scouts and move in and engage but only the units they engage against have the chance of attacking back in HTH during their own activation and have the option to freely pull out of HtH since the aggressor was an Aircraft so they do not pay the Command Point? That way if you decide to go to HtH with a unit with something like a Glaug-Eldare they can freely choose what they want to do when it is their turn but they are not obliged to remian in HtH and their buddies cannot engage the unit and prevent it from moving away from engagement? Kinda awkward to word that all out but it would fit the game and realism. A flying Guardian mode VT just does not have the speed to move up and engage a Glaug-Eldare or a Gnerl in HtH since it moves so fast.....

@Mike1975: Considering the G-E has both Aircraft and Afterburner, your proposed fix is a hard sell as we ponder whether the G-E is evidence that aircraft are intended to be able to make H2H attacks.

Let's look at it logically from a design perspective: what is the purpose of the Aircraft special rule?

Its seeming purpose is to simulate jet plane style flight -- specifically constant forward motion. A jet that stops moving forward falls out of the sky. That is why aircraft cannot be engaged.

Assuming the G-E entry is not some kind of mistake (which I do not find far-fetched considering the look of the mecha), the implication is that they can also take H2H attacks and attempt parries. All of that stuff seems pretty dumb to me but I will set it aside to reiterate the larger issue: I do not think B2B contact with an aircraft should cause non-aircraft enemy mecha to be considered engaged in H2H. That really seems like it is crossing the line.

 Manchu wrote:
@Mike1975: Considering the G-E has both Aircraft and Afterburner, your proposed fix is a hard sell as we ponder whether the G-E is evidence that aircraft are intended to be able to make H2H attacks.

Let's look at it logically from a design perspective: what is the purpose of the Aircraft special rule?

Its seeming purpose is to simulate jet plane style flight -- specifically constant forward motion. A jet that stops moving forward falls out of the sky. That is why aircraft cannot be engaged.

Assuming the G-E entry is not some kind of mistake (which I do not find far-fetched considering the look of the mecha), the implication is that they can also take H2H attacks and attempt parries. All of that stuff seems pretty dumb to me but I will set it aside to reiterate the larger issue: I do not think B2B contact with an aircraft should cause non-aircraft enemy mecha to be considered engaged in H2H. That really seems like it is crossing the line.

I know, what I'm saying is change it so that Aircraft can choose to engage in HtH IF they have a physical attack listed on their sheet BUT they cannot be attacked in HtH due to their high speed regardless of what traits the attacker possesses. Both can freely disengage. So a G-E can make his attack but other units are still restricted from attacking him as an aircraft. Also ONLY Aircraft like the G-E have the option to engage in HTH. So a G-E can fly up to you, punch you, then complete his activation by moving again using the Afterburner trait.

Units that Aircraft BUT not afterburner, which may come in to the game later on, may choose to engage with a unit in HtH. The defender can then choose to remain in HtH or disengage without paying a command point during their activation. So only if you are attacked by an aircraft in HtH that does not have Afterburner to boost away the player can then choose to return the favor and respond with a HtH attack, but ONLY the unit that was attacked.

This is not a great option for the G-E since his weapons do so much more damage it makes no sense for him to try to punch someone BUT it will be great for invid with boosters since they can make swooping attacks and can only be shot at in return.

At present I don't think there are any units with Aircraft that do not have Afterburner.

I hope that clarifies a bit

Quite apart from whether a non-aircraft model B2B with an enemy aircraft is considered engaged in H2H comabt, there is the issue of whether aircraft can make and/or take H2H attacks. RAW, the G-E shows at least one aircraft can make H2H attacks. We have discussed at length that at least one interpretation of RAW allows H2H attacks against aircraft.

As to the engagement issue:

I don't think Afterburner really comes into it. Simulating aircraft movement is a matter of continuous forward motion regardless of speed. I think this is why aircraft can never be engaged.

For the reasons discussed in the first three pages, I do not think it makes any design sense to allow aircraft to engage non-aircraft, either. I still think the "takes two to tango" concept is the most persuasive. If a mecha is distracted enough to be considered engaged, the mecha causing the distraction is logically also distracted enough to be considered engaged. For an aircraft, this would mean falling out of the sky.

I think our previous sentences are still the best:

A mecha cannot make hand to hand attacks against an enemy mecha that cannot be considered engaged in hand to hand combat.

A mecha is never considered to be engaged in hand to hand combat because of being in base to base contact with an aircraft.

A mecha does not have to pay a Command Point to move out of base to base contact with an aircraft.

In other words, I think the G-E, rather than everything else, is what requires further FAQing. The simplest way is to FAQ away its H2H attacks.

In any case, according to PB's Macross Saga sourcebook, the Eldare booster is mainly to allow Glaug's to lead Gnerl in battle -- which I doubt involves charges into melee!

I am still firmly in the camp that Aircraft are not exempt from making H2H attacks or receiving them, they just are never engaged.

The Glaug-E specifically has both, and it's quite obvious to me that Invid will share the combo of Aircraft and H2H attacks, especially the Iigaa, especially as it can fly 892 kph in Earth's atmosphere, especially as it makes several fly-by H2H attacks in the source material. Unless we are setting an arbitrary baseline for Aircraft around mach 1 to exclude Invid?

Perhaps Invid should have a special rule (instead of or in addition to aircraft) to reflect their unique, alien capabilities.

Probably better if you come up with wording for both allowing and not allowing HtH against aircraft and move on.

Well, we have a sentence for not allowing H2H against aircraft:

A mecha cannot make hand to hand attacks against an enemy mecha that cannot be considered engaged in hand to hand combat.

As for allowing it, assuming the G-E entryis correct, RAW already does allow it (because being engaged in H2H combat is not explicitly required to make a H2H attack).

I'd like to present all corrections and get the approved for the next update in 2 weeks so that people can have all the clarifications as their pledges arrive....

Thanks guys.

Mike1975 wrote:
I'd like to present all corrections and get the approved for the next update in 2 weeks so that people can have all the clarifications as their pledges arrive...

So what does that make our deadline?

I think the we should focus on this one next:

Mike1975 wrote:
6. Vehicles and HTH. So for now the convoy truck could be considered scenario specific, let's assume that we are making rules for the addition of vehicles long term.

Should they all have Body Block to indicate the capacity to ram? And there's the engagement issue.

Also, as Swabby brought up, there is also the matter of Polus-Mjor shock baton on aircraft:

the Shock Baton reduces the enemy mecha's SPD to zero

Wednesday

Thats quite a deadline. Should we start with a master list of found issues?

I really appreciate the effort you folks are putting into this. This is the most enjoyable conversation I have had on the subject since the kickstarter began.

 Swabby wrote:
Thats quite a deadline. Should we start with a master list of found issues?

I really appreciate the effort you folks are putting into this. This is the most enjoyable conversation I have had on the subject since the kickstarter began.

I made a list a few pages back. If we want to have an "Official" FAQ it'll have to be this coming week since I'll have to send it to PB, give them a week to make a few calls and check it out, modify it, add TM and Copyright fun and then add to the Update that week. If not it will not be "Official" and ready when people are receiving their pledges. I'm pushing it for all the backers.