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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 08:22:48
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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What are the advantages of concealed carry? It makes the gun slower to draw, and it impairs the intimidation factor since the presence of a visible gun could dissuade attackers. It has offensive benefits, it is harder to predict an attack made with concealed carry, but surely there must be some other advantage I am not aware of?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/02 08:23:27
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 08:37:22
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
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[DCM]
The Main Man
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Ashiraya wrote:What are the advantages of concealed carry? It makes the gun slower to draw, and it impairs the intimidation factor since the presence of a visible gun could dissuade attackers. It has offensive benefits, it is harder to predict an attack made with concealed carry, but surely there must be some other advantage I am not aware of?
1. Nobody else knows you are carrying, which keeps you from becoming priority target number one if someone decides to commit a violent crime in your presence.
2. In relation to number one, it provides you an out. For example, in a situation in which you judge that nobody's life is in danger, or in which presenting a weapon would increase the risk of something bad happening, you can simply decide to walk away or not draw your weapon, such as in the case of a non-life threatening robbery. If you were carrying openly, this option might not be available, as the criminal is likely to give you more (unwanted) attention.
3. A tactical advantage. In relation to number two, if you are not currently the focus of the criminal act, it provides you with a more stealthy option. The criminal isn't focused on you, so you can draw your weapon unnoticed, or extricate yourself unnoticed, or what ever you decide is appropriate at the time.
4. It impairs the intimidation factor. There's a good chance that, when going about your day, you're not trying to intimidate the people you come into contact with or do business with, so it makes much more sense to keep your weapon concealed. It also avoids unnecessary attention from the police. Even in places where open carry is legal, if you do it for long enough, there is a decent chance someone will call the police on you. While this will most likely end without any issues, since you're not breaking any laws, it's still a hassle while you're trying to go about your day.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 10:45:50
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
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Fixture of Dakka
CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence
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Ashiraya wrote:What are the advantages of concealed carry? It makes the gun slower to draw, and it impairs the intimidation factor since the presence of a visible gun could dissuade attackers. It has offensive benefits, it is harder to predict an attack made with concealed carry, but surely there must be some other advantage I am not aware of?
Are there a lot of 'attacks made' by concealed carry folks (legally carrying)?
I'm not so sure there are.
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Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 11:01:26
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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CptJake wrote: Ashiraya wrote:What are the advantages of concealed carry? It makes the gun slower to draw, and it impairs the intimidation factor since the presence of a visible gun could dissuade attackers. It has offensive benefits, it is harder to predict an attack made with concealed carry, but surely there must be some other advantage I am not aware of?
Are there a lot of 'attacks made' by concealed carry folks (legally carrying)?
I'm not so sure there are.
Has someone made an assertion that there are?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 11:22:26
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
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Fixture of Dakka
CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence
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Ashiraya wrote: CptJake wrote: Ashiraya wrote:What are the advantages of concealed carry? It makes the gun slower to draw, and it impairs the intimidation factor since the presence of a visible gun could dissuade attackers. It has offensive benefits, it is harder to predict an attack made with concealed carry, but surely there must be some other advantage I am not aware of?
Are there a lot of 'attacks made' by concealed carry folks (legally carrying)?
I'm not so sure there are.
Has someone made an assertion that there are?
Well, you seem to think the primary advantages are offensive. For you to think that without some type of stats showing that is how it is used doesn't make sense to me.
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Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 11:56:16
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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CptJake wrote: Ashiraya wrote: CptJake wrote: Ashiraya wrote:What are the advantages of concealed carry? It makes the gun slower to draw, and it impairs the intimidation factor since the presence of a visible gun could dissuade attackers. It has offensive benefits, it is harder to predict an attack made with concealed carry, but surely there must be some other advantage I am not aware of?
Are there a lot of 'attacks made' by concealed carry folks (legally carrying)?
I'm not so sure there are.
Has someone made an assertion that there are?
Well, you seem to think the primary advantages are offensive. For you to think that without some type of stats showing that is how it is used doesn't make sense to me.
I asked a question, I made no assertion. I could only see offensive advantages, but I thought 'this can't be right' so I asked for any defensive advantages, which were provided.
It was not an attack. Believe it or not, posts can do other things than praise guns or attack them.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/02 11:57:09
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 12:40:24
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Ashiraya wrote:What are the advantages of concealed carry? It makes the gun slower to draw, and it impairs the intimidation factor since the presence of a visible gun could dissuade attackers. It has offensive benefits, it is harder to predict an attack made with concealed carry, but surely there must be some other advantage I am not aware of?
Others have already touched on this, but my $0.02:
1) if you practice, as you should with all things gun related, drawing a concealed weapon can be almost as fast as a weapon you carry openly. You can draw from an IWB or pocket holster pretty quickly.
2) "impairing intimidation factor": can be good for a different reason than "fail to intimidate bad guys". I can go eat at a restaurant without freaking people out. Lots of folks don't like to see people carry openly and want to eat a meal "in peace". But many of them never realize just how many guns might actually be in the restaurant with them. CC saves you a lot of headache.
3) as far as not being able to intimidate bad guys, I fall on the opposite side of the open carry debate anyway. I don't like to open carry because I always think that you are more likely to become a target than a deterrent. They might try to take the guy with the gun out first.
4) being able to stay out of a situation. I carry to protect myself and my loved ones. If a guy is holding up the gas station while I'm getting my coffee I will probably not risk my life for them if it's just a property theft. Carrying concealed I can stay out of the situation, but if the bad guy sees my gun he might make me part of it. Heck, even a bystander seeing my gun might say something to force me into the situation.
5) plus the whole " surprise" factor thing.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/02 12:40:47
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 13:06:33
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Ashiraya wrote:Believe it or not, posts can do other things than praise guns or attack them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 14:48:33
Subject: Re:Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I like CC because I shoot an average of 50 people a day and they never see it coming.
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Paulson Games parts are now at:
www.RedDogMinis.com |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 15:03:54
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
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Fixture of Dakka
CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence
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Ashiraya wrote: CptJake wrote: Ashiraya wrote: CptJake wrote: Ashiraya wrote:What are the advantages of concealed carry? It makes the gun slower to draw, and it impairs the intimidation factor since the presence of a visible gun could dissuade attackers. It has offensive benefits, it is harder to predict an attack made with concealed carry, but surely there must be some other advantage I am not aware of?
Are there a lot of 'attacks made' by concealed carry folks (legally carrying)?
I'm not so sure there are.
Has someone made an assertion that there are?
Well, you seem to think the primary advantages are offensive. For you to think that without some type of stats showing that is how it is used doesn't make sense to me.
I asked a question, I made no assertion. I could only see offensive advantages, but I thought 'this can't be right' so I asked for any defensive advantages, which were provided.
It was not an attack. Believe it or not, posts can do other things than praise guns or attack them.
I guess when I see the question framed the way you framed it, I see a very large indicator of a set position and a mind frame that assumes guns are purely offensive in nature. It really doesn't take much outside of the box thinking to come up with reasons why one would not want to carry openly, without defaulting to 'it allows a sneak attack on unwitting victims' which is how the framing of your question came across to me. Honestly, I haven't read any posts in this topic advocating using second amendment rights to justify offensive actions at all (though admittedly I may have missed them as I have not read every post). So to go from the right of self defense to only offensive advantages, again, seemed to indicate a certain mind frame.
Across the net I can't detect tone well, if you were just genuinely curious I apologize for the sort of smart ass answer.
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Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 15:06:31
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
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Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions
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Ashiraya wrote:I asked a question, I made no assertion. I could only see offensive advantages, but I thought 'this can't be right' so I asked for any defensive advantages, which were provided.
It was not an attack. Believe it or not, posts can do other things than praise guns or attack them.
I have highlighted the relevant part below.
Ashiraya wrote:What are the advantages of concealed carry? It makes the gun slower to draw, and it impairs the intimidation factor since the presence of a visible gun could dissuade attackers. It has offensive benefits, it is harder to predict an attack made with concealed carry, but surely there must be some other advantage I am not aware of?
On face value it appears that you made a statement and not surprisingly some people objected to it as it may appear to give the impression that concealed carriers are aggressors when the overwhelming majority of concealed carriers do so for self defense. I understand that there may be an element that was lost in translation. Concealed carry typically refers to a legal gun owner that has a license to carry a handgun in a concealed manner. Was that the same definition that you were working off, or did you have another in mind when you wrote your statement?
Concealed carry has many advantages as outlined above by better posters than I so I see no need to repeat those arguments.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 15:31:17
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I would say that pulling out a gun and shooting someone is categorically an 'offensive' action, even if it was done in a self defense situation.
A defensive action would be something like using the side of the gun as a shield, or shooting the other person's bullets out of the air.
That is unless we are talking about the military definition of defense (which we all know just means attack).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 15:35:36
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Smacks wrote:I would say that pulling out a gun and shooting someone is categorically an 'offensive' action, even if it was done in a self defense situation.
A defensive action would be something like using the side of the gun as a shield, or shooting the other person's bullets out of the air.
That is unless we are talking about the military definition of defense (which we all know just means attack).
See the case of George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin... The actual "court verified" train of events was that a teenager was on top of another man, pounding his head into the sidewalk.... How is shooting the person on top an "offensive action"? What fething good would using the "side of the gun as a shield" do in that situation?
And I ain't even gonna touch the "shooting the other person's bullets out of the air" bit because that's so ridiculous, I'm sure you can see how wrong that idea is.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 15:37:17
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
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Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions
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Smacks wrote:I would say that pulling out a gun and shooting someone is categorically an 'offensive' action, even if it was done in a self defense situation.
A defensive action would be something like using the side of the gun as a shield, or shooting the other person's bullets out of the air.
That is unless we are talking about the military definition of defense (which we all know just means attack).
That would be your opinion, which you have every right to exercise. But it would also be incorrect in fact and in law.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 15:42:42
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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Dreadclaw69 wrote: Ashiraya wrote:I asked a question, I made no assertion. I could only see offensive advantages, but I thought 'this can't be right' so I asked for any defensive advantages, which were provided.
It was not an attack. Believe it or not, posts can do other things than praise guns or attack them.
I have highlighted the relevant part below.
Ashiraya wrote:What are the advantages of concealed carry? It makes the gun slower to draw, and it impairs the intimidation factor since the presence of a visible gun could dissuade attackers. It has offensive benefits, it is harder to predict an attack made with concealed carry, but surely there must be some other advantage I am not aware of?
On face value it appears that you made a statement and not surprisingly some people objected to it as it may appear to give the impression that concealed carriers are aggressors when the overwhelming majority of concealed carriers do so for self defense. I understand that there may be an element that was lost in translation. Concealed carry typically refers to a legal gun owner that has a license to carry a handgun in a concealed manner. Was that the same definition that you were working off, or did you have another in mind when you wrote your statement?
Concealed carry has many advantages as outlined above by better posters than I so I see no need to repeat those arguments.
That was just part of my question's premise.
Concealed carry DOES have offensive benefits, but I did not believe those benefits really had anything to do with why most people who prefer it do so.
Any offensive benefits it may or may not have was not really the point at all.
Is it offensive to you that I mention that concealed carry could potentially be used offensively, while in the same sentence saying that there surely is far more to it than that and asking for information?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 15:46:55
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
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Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions
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Ashiraya wrote:Is it offensive to you that I mention that concealed carry could potentially be used offensively, while in the same sentence saying that there surely is far more to it than that and asking for information?
It isn't offensive, but to say that you can only think of offensive benefits rather than couch your question in more neutral terms leads to the inevitable assumption that conceal carry is a tool of an aggressor. Had you included the line you just typed "Concealed carry DOES have offensive benefits, but I did not believe those benefits really had anything to do with why most people who prefer it do so. " that would have made your initial post seem less biased.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/02 15:48:08
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 15:50:19
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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...At this point, I can only really explain this with 'I am not from an English-speaking country, so many of the implications whoosh over my head.'
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 15:53:29
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
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Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions
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Which is why I asked whether that played a factor.
In any event I think we can safely say that we have established that there are sound reasons for concealed carry as a defensive practice.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 15:55:13
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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I see which arguments people use for CC, yes.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 16:08:13
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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There was nothing wrong with what you said. The meaning was fairly obvious and neutral to anyone isn't hypersensitive to all percieved criticism.
Dreadclaw69 wrote:That would be your opinion, which you have every right to exercise. But it would also be incorrect in fact and in law.
I think you'll find that in law pulling out a gun and shooting people in considered very offensive and illegal, so I'm not wrong. It's also the meaning of the word. If your action purposefully harms another person, then it is clearly offensive. Just because you can argue that you attacked the other person is 'self defense' does not make it any less of an attack, it just makes it a legal one.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 16:12:50
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
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Lieutenant Colonel
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Smacks wrote:There was nothing wrong with what you said. The meaning was fairly obvious and neutral to anyone isn't hypersensitive to all percieved criticism.
Dreadclaw69 wrote:That would be your opinion, which you have every right to exercise. But it would also be incorrect in fact and in law.
I think you'll find that in law pulling out a gun and shooting people in considered very offensive and illegal, so I'm not wrong. It's also the meaning of the word. If your action purposefully harms another person, then it is clearly offensive. Just because you can argue that you attacked the other person is 'self defense' does not make it any less of an attack, it just makes it a legal one.
You are wrong,
by definition,
DEFENSE of ones person, is NOT an attack, not even a "legal attack", it is a legal defence.
Same with how writing is different from reading.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 16:15:24
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Smacks wrote:There was nothing wrong with what you said. The meaning was fairly obvious and neutral to anyone isn't hypersensitive to all percieved criticism.
Dreadclaw69 wrote:That would be your opinion, which you have every right to exercise. But it would also be incorrect in fact and in law.
I think you'll find that in law pulling out a gun and shooting people in considered very offensive and illegal, so I'm not wrong. It's also the meaning of the word. If your action purposefully harms another person, then it is clearly offensive. Just because you can argue that you attacked the other person is 'self defense' does not make it any less of an attack, it just makes it a legal one.
There is really no point in areguing these semantics with someone that is intentionally being obtuse. If someone attacks you, you have the right to DEFEND yourself with reasonable means. If you don't get it, then that's really your problem.
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DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 16:21:01
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
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Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions
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Smacks wrote:I think you'll find that in law pulling out a gun and shooting people in considered very offensive and illegal, so I'm not wrong. It's also the meaning of the word. If your action purposefully harms another person, then it is clearly offensive. Just because you can argue that you attacked the other person is 'self defense' does not make it any less of an attack, it just makes it a legal one.
Your very first sentence is incorrect and appears to confuse self defense (and justifiable force) as offensive and unlawful. Therefore your assertion is untrue and plainly incorrect. Gun owners have had to use their firearm for lawful self defense in countless documented cases. Defending yourself against a hostile action is not an attack, nor is it an offensive action. Defending yourself against an attack is by its very nature defensive, and it does not vary depending upon the method used to defend yourself.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 16:26:01
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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]I think you'll find that in law pulling out a gun and shooting people in considered very offensive and illegal, so I'm not wrong..
I think you'll find your statement is ignorant if you actually research the topic.
*Self Defense or Defense of others is not in any way illegal.*
*"He Needed Killin Your Honor" is also fully permitted for women folk, at least in civilized countries, like Texas.
*In Texas this includes defending the honor of Texas barbeque vs. all others.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 16:27:26
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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kronk wrote: Smacks wrote:There was nothing wrong with what you said. The meaning was fairly obvious and neutral to anyone isn't hypersensitive to all percieved criticism. Dreadclaw69 wrote:That would be your opinion, which you have every right to exercise. But it would also be incorrect in fact and in law.
I think you'll find that in law pulling out a gun and shooting people in considered very offensive and illegal, so I'm not wrong. It's also the meaning of the word. If your action purposefully harms another person, then it is clearly offensive. Just because you can argue that you attacked the other person is 'self defense' does not make it any less of an attack, it just makes it a legal one. There is really no point in areguing these semantics with someone that is intentionally being obtuse. If someone attacks you, you have the right to DEFEND yourself with reasonable means. If you don't get it, then that's really your problem. Thanks kronk, I do understand self defense completely. But the original point was about offensive and defensive capabilities. Shooting is almost always going to fall under the purview of offensive capability. Defensive is stuff like armour. That is all I was saying. If you use your offensive capabilities to defend yourself or defend your country then you can call it a "defense" but that wasn't the question.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/09/02 16:33:35
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 16:38:00
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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I disagree with your assesment, but I at least understand what you are trying to say a little better.
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DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 16:53:15
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
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Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions
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Smacks wrote:Thanks kronk, I do understand self defense completely. But the original point was about offensive and defensive capabilities. Shooting is almost always going to fall under the purview of offensive capability. Defensive is stuff like armour. That is all I was saying. If you use your offensive capabilities to defend yourself or defend your country then you can call it a "defense" but that wasn't the question.
Shooting may be, in fact or in law, a defensive action. You may disagree with that, but it is a statement of fact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-defense
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_gun_use
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justifiable_homicide
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/02 16:55:18
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 17:04:58
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I don't. I think we are talking about different things. Sorry for the confusion.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 17:08:03
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
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Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions
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Smacks wrote:
I don't. I think we are talking about different things. Sorry for the confusion.
You don't disagree that shooting is a defensive act? So you now accept that shooting is a valid method of self defense?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 17:27:04
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Dreadclaw69 wrote: Smacks wrote:
I don't. I think we are talking about different things. Sorry for the confusion.
You don't disagree that shooting is a defensive act? So you now accept that shooting is a valid method of self defense?
It can be both, at the same time.
It's pretty silly to have a multipage discussion about this IMO.
Edit:
It's like martial arts: punching somebody in the face and breaking their nose is usually considered an offensive attack. Using someones weight and momentum against them is usually considered a defensive attack. Both can be valid ways to defend yourself.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/02 17:30:58
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