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2014/09/02 17:41:15
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
Dreadclaw69 wrote: You don't disagree that shooting is a defensive act? So you now accept that shooting is a valid method of self defense?
I don't disagree that shooting is a defensive act in the sense that you mean it (obviously shooting isn't always in defense). I don't think I've ever disputed that shooting is a valid method of self defense (where someone is genuinely in danger). Even in the UK you can shoot someone in self defense. Obviously you would have to explain what you were doing with a gun, and show that it was justified, but yeah.
What I was actually talking about is something slightly different. If you really want me to explain it would probably be better to use something else as an example such as a fighter plane. A fighter plane has offensive and defensive capabilities. Offensive capabilities would be things like missiles, guns, bombs, and other attacks like radar jamming. Defensive capabilities would be things like, inferred countermeasures, evasive maneuvers, armour, radar invisibility, camouflage etc...
As I said before, you can use your offensive capabilities to defend yourself, or to defend your country, and yes that is a defensive action, but it is misleading to then claim that a weapon is a defensive capability (although that's what politicians generally do). Offensive is not an insult, or a statement of intent, it is just the nature of what a weapon is.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/02 17:42:34
2014/09/02 17:46:52
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
Breotan wrote: I posted this a while ago in a different thread but the discussion here seems to have gone a similar way so I'm posting this again. Enjoy.
No offense but people already talked about the problem with comparing violent crime statistics in the US vs. the UK due to different definitions for violent crime. The UK definition is more broad so therefore will include many cases that will not pop up in the US crime statistics. So comparing violent crime statistics in the US v.s UK is an apples to oranges comparison.
Edit: Also so the US has 6 times more population centers than the UK but US has 313.9 million people vs. the 63.23 million for the UK. So of COURSE US has more population centers because has more PEOPLE than the UK, that isn't saying anything at all.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/02 18:04:26
2014/09/02 17:53:41
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
It's pretty silly to have a multipage discussion about this IMO.
Edit:
It's like martial arts: punching somebody in the face and breaking their nose is usually considered an offensive attack. Using someones weight and momentum against them is usually considered a defensive attack. Both can be valid ways to defend yourself.
So if you have to use your handgun to protect yourself and the Police question you will you be claiming self defense, or that you committed an offensive act?
Smacks wrote: I don't disagree that shooting is a defensive act in the sense that you mean it (obviously shooting isn't always in defense). I don't think I've ever disputed that shooting is a valid method of self defense (where someone is genuinely in danger). Even in the UK you can shoot someone in self defense. Obviously you would have to explain what you were doing with a gun, and show that it was justified, but yeah.
As I said before, you can use your offensive capabilities to defend yourself, or to defend your country, and yes that is a defensive action, but it is misleading to then claim that a weapon is a defensive capability (although that's what politicians generally do).
When you post things like;
Smacks wrote: I would say that pulling out a gun and shooting someone is categorically an 'offensive' action, even if it was done in a self defense situation.
A defensive action would be something like using the side of the gun as a shield, or shooting the other person's bullets out of the air.
Smacks wrote: I think you'll find that in law pulling out a gun and shooting people in considered very offensive and illegal, so I'm not wrong. It's also the meaning of the word. If your action purposefully harms another person, then it is clearly offensive
It gives a very different message than the one which you claim you are attempting to convey.
Smacks wrote: Offensive is not an insult, or a statement of intent, it is just the nature of what a weapon is.
Incorrect in fact and law as we have already covered.
2014/09/02 18:02:50
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
It's pretty silly to have a multipage discussion about this IMO.
Edit:
It's like martial arts: punching somebody in the face and breaking their nose is usually considered an offensive attack. Using someones weight and momentum against them is usually considered a defensive attack. Both can be valid ways to defend yourself.
So if you have to use your handgun to protect yourself and the Police question you will you be claiming self defense, or that you committed an offensive act?
Yes.
2014/09/02 18:11:13
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
It's pretty silly to have a multipage discussion about this IMO.
Edit:
It's like martial arts: punching somebody in the face and breaking their nose is usually considered an offensive attack. Using someones weight and momentum against them is usually considered a defensive attack. Both can be valid ways to defend yourself.
So if you have to use your handgun to protect yourself and the Police question you will you be claiming self defense, or that you committed an offensive act?
Yes.
Which one? Is it either;
A) I defended myself against another's aggression
B) I committed an offensive act against another
2014/09/02 18:13:03
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
Dreadclaw69 wrote: When you post things like; ... It gives a very different message than the one which you claim you are attempting to convey.
Smacks wrote: I would say that pulling out a gun and shooting someone is categorically an 'offensive' action, even if it was done in a self defense situation.
A defensive action would be something like using the side of the gun as a shield, or shooting the other person's bullets out of the air.
I said exactly the same thing. Pulling out a gun (offensive capability) and shooting someone (using your offensive capability). And I mentioned that you can use it in self defense, so I don't know why you keep asking me about that and posting links.
I don't really think a gun has many purely defensive capabilities, but I suggested some as joke (which apparently some people didn't get). You could probably argue that intimidation is a defensive capability.
Smacks wrote: I think you'll find that in law pulling out a gun and shooting people in considered very offensive and illegal, so I'm not wrong. It's also the meaning of the word. If your action purposefully harms another person, then it is clearly offensive
Pulling out a gun and shooting someone, for no reason, is usually considered murder (Maybe not in Texas?joke), which proves my point that guns do have an offensive capability.
It's pretty easy to test. Pick something. Can you use it as a weapon? If yes then it is an offensive capability.
Gun = yes
Camouflage = no
Smacks wrote: Offensive is not an insult, or a statement of intent, it is just the nature of what a weapon is.
Incorrect in fact and law as we have already covered.
Well I can say you're incorrect as I've just covered. If you're going to keep talking crossways then that will happen.
2014/09/02 18:35:46
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
Smacks wrote: I said exactly the same thing. Pulling out a gun (offensive capability) and shooting someone (using your offensive capability). And I mentioned that you can use it in self defense, so I don't know why you keep asking me about that and posting links.
Because you contended that using a firearm when we were talking about self-defense was "illegal" and I want to make sure that you no longer abide by that contention.
Smacks wrote: I don't really think a gun has many purely defensive capabilities, but I suggested some as joke (which apparently some people didn't get). You could probably argue that intimidation is a defensive capability.
Self defense is, by its very nature defensive. Again you may not agree with this, but that is immaterial.
Smacks wrote: Pulling out a gun and shooting someone, for no reason, is usually considered murder (Maybe not in Texas?joke), which proves my point that guns do have an offensive capability.
You are confusing defensive and aggressive actions again.
Smacks wrote: Well I can say you're incorrect as I've just covered. If you're going to keep talking crossways then that will happen.
When we are talking about lawful self defense and you are splitting hairs on a sidebar. We attempted to correct you to bring you back into the discussion. You were content to keep saying that defensive gun use was offensive (bar your claims that defensive gun use involves using it as a shield or shooting bullets out of the air)
2014/09/02 18:37:49
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
It's pretty silly to have a multipage discussion about this IMO.
Edit:
It's like martial arts: punching somebody in the face and breaking their nose is usually considered an offensive attack. Using someones weight and momentum against them is usually considered a defensive attack. Both can be valid ways to defend yourself.
So if you have to use your handgun to protect yourself and the Police question you will you be claiming self defense, or that you committed an offensive act?
Yes.
Which one? Is it either; A) I defended myself against another's aggression B) I committed an offensive act against another
It doesn't have to be either, it can be both. Thus my example above.
There are type of actions, offensive vs defensive, and reasons for actions, attack and defend.
You can use an offensive action to defend yourself: aka shoot the bad guy. You can use a defensive action to attack someone: use the momentum and weight of the guy trying to shake your hand to throw him.
Saying that using a gun to defend yourself (aka using the offensive capabilities of that weapon and ammo to defend yourself) doesn't equal an attack against guns or their use in self defense.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/02 18:40:16
2014/09/02 18:43:50
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
d-usa wrote: Saying that using a gun to defend yourself (aka using the offensive capabilities of that weapon and ammo to defend yourself) doesn't equal an attack against guns or their use in self defense.
My point is that saying you committed an aggressive/offensive act against another is a great way to get you in trouble with the DA
2014/09/02 18:49:48
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
d-usa wrote: Saying that using a gun to defend yourself (aka using the offensive capabilities of that weapon and ammo to defend yourself) doesn't equal an attack against guns or their use in self defense.
My point is that saying you committed an aggressive/offensive act against another is a great way to get you in trouble with the DA
But offensive doesn't automatically equal aggressive.
You can punch somebody in the face to defend yourself. You can say that you defended yourself, but (edit)nobody anywhere most people are not going to use the phrase "I defensively broke his nose" on a day to day basis..
A punch is an offensive action. Blocking a punch is a defensive action. But punching doesn't automatically make you the aggressor and blocking a punch doesn't automatically make you the defender.
The type of action doesn't equal the purpose of the action.
Edit: I didn't read the post that started it all as an attack against gun use or as an "offensive" statement against gun owners. So maybe there is just an emotional reaction there that I don't have.
Edit 2: I can see using "defensively broke his nose" in lawyer speak...
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/09/02 18:52:50
2014/09/02 18:59:08
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
d-usa wrote: But offensive doesn't automatically equal aggressive.
You can punch somebody in the face to defend yourself. You can say that you defended yourself, but (edit)nobody anywhere most people are not going to use the phrase "I defensively broke his nose" on a day to day basis..
A punch is an offensive action. Blocking a punch is a defensive action. But punching doesn't automatically make you the aggressor and blocking a punch doesn't automatically make you the defender.
The type of action doesn't equal the purpose of the action.
Edit: I didn't read the post that started it all as an attack against gun use or as an "offensive" statement against gun owners. So maybe there is just an emotional reaction there that I don't have.
Edit 2: I can see using "defensively broke his nose" in lawyer speak...
By the same token no one says "I offensively punched him after he tried to strike me" on a day to day basis. I think that most people would recognize that more often than not self defense involves some measure of force to protect yourself.
No emotional response was intended and I apologize if it came off that way. I was merely trying to rebut the suggestion that "in law pulling out a gun and shooting people in considered very offensive and illegal", and "A defensive action would be something like using the side of the gun as a shield, or shooting the other person's bullets out of the air" when we were talking about the use of firearms in self defense
2014/09/02 19:04:05
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
d-usa wrote: But offensive doesn't automatically equal aggressive.
You can punch somebody in the face to defend yourself. You can say that you defended yourself, but (edit)nobody anywhere most people are not going to use the phrase "I defensively broke his nose" on a day to day basis..
A punch is an offensive action. Blocking a punch is a defensive action. But punching doesn't automatically make you the aggressor and blocking a punch doesn't automatically make you the defender.
The type of action doesn't equal the purpose of the action.
Edit: I didn't read the post that started it all as an attack against gun use or as an "offensive" statement against gun owners. So maybe there is just an emotional reaction there that I don't have.
Edit 2: I can see using "defensively broke his nose" in lawyer speak...
By the same token no one says "I offensively punched him after he tried to strike me" on a day to day basis. I think that most people would recognize that more often than not self defense involves some measure of force to protect yourself.
True that...
No emotional response was intended and I apologize if it came off that way. I was merely trying to rebut the suggestion that "in law pulling out a gun and shooting people in considered very offensive and illegal", and "A defensive action would be something like using the side of the gun as a shield, or shooting the other person's bullets out of the air" when we were talking about the use of firearms in self defense
Isn't a self-defense shooting considered a homicide as far as cause of death is concerned and a justified homicide as far as the law itself is concerned? Or am I thinking about something completely different there?
2014/09/02 19:06:27
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
d-usa wrote: Saying that using a gun to defend yourself (aka using the offensive capabilities of that weapon and ammo to defend yourself) doesn't equal an attack against guns or their use in self defense.
My point is that saying you committed an aggressive/offensive act against another is a great way to get you in trouble with the DA
But offensive doesn't automatically equal aggressive.
You can punch somebody in the face to defend yourself. You can say that you defended yourself, but (edit)nobody anywhere most people are not going to use the phrase "I defensively broke his nose" on a day to day basis..
A punch is an offensive action. Blocking a punch is a defensive action. But punching doesn't automatically make you the aggressor and blocking a punch doesn't automatically make you the defender.
The type of action doesn't equal the purpose of the action.
Edit: I didn't read the post that started it all as an attack against gun use or as an "offensive" statement against gun owners. So maybe there is just an emotional reaction there that I don't have.
Edit 2: I can see using "defensively broke his nose" in lawyer speak...
If you use this language in a self defense situation you will go to jail. Just fyi
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2014/09/02 19:08:01
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
If you use this language in a self defense situation you will go to jail. Just fyi
But :
A) You should never talk to the police without going through a lawyer in a situation like that anyway.
B) Legal language has zero grounding in any sort of reality anyway
2014/09/02 19:09:32
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
If you use this language in a self defense situation you will go to jail. Just fyi
But :
A) You should never talk to the police without going through a lawyer in a situation like that anyway.
B) Legal language has zero grounding in any sort of reality anyway
We're going to just have to agree to...agree!
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2014/09/02 19:16:13
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
Isn't a self-defense shooting considered a homicide as far as cause of death is concerned and a justified homicide as far as the law itself is concerned? Or am I thinking about something completely different there?
Kinda, any time a human kills another human it is considered a homicide. And then within homicides there Justifiable or Excusable Homicides which include self defense as well as other things. Justifiable or Excusable Homicides are not considered criminal.
Though law more generally puts a great deal of emphasis on why someone did something over how. The why is reason generally why something is considered justifiable or not, not the how. The how (or the details of a crime) can come up in sentencing though.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/02 19:22:22
2014/09/03 02:05:04
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
Hordini wrote: 1. Nobody else knows you are carrying, which keeps you from becoming priority target number one if someone decides to commit a violent crime in your presence.
Not just the attention from violent criminals, lots of people wouldn't want that attention from the regular public.
Concealed vs open carry strikes me as the difference between owning a Ferrari and owning a Ferrari and also always walking around in a Ferrari jacket and hat. The first means that when you need to drive you have a really nice car to do it in, the latter means you have a nice car to drive in and also you need to tell everyone about it at all times because you're actually a bit of a dill weed.
Okay, that has made this thread worthwhile. Brilliant.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Smacks wrote: I would say that pulling out a gun and shooting someone is categorically an 'offensive' action, even if it was done in a self defense situation.
Nah, shooting someone in self defense is 'defense'. It's right there in the second part of 'self defense'.
The issue then becomes one of how many self defense acts there are, and comparing that to how many homicides there are that probably wouldn't have happened if a person hadn't had a gun on hand.
Oh, and also trying to assess how many of those self defense acts might not have been needed if the person hadn't been armed and instead just gotten away from the situation (would Zimmerman have been patrolling the streets if he didn't have a gun?)
All of which is, of course, extremely subjective, hence all the debate
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2014/09/03 02:18:57
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2014/09/03 02:17:46
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
sebster wrote: Nah, shooting someone in self defense is 'defense'. It's right there in the second part of 'self defense'.
Yeah, it devolved quickly into a semantic argument, "the best defense is a good offense" kinda thing. Since the discussion originated with the offensive and defensive pros and cons of concealed carry it really didn't have much to do with 'self defense' as a legal term. I think my post about the offensive and defensive capabilities of a fighter plane (top of the page) explains quite well what I was talking about and includes everything I want to say on the matter. I should have been clearer from the start, but I misjudged the scale of outrage and denial that would be stirred up at the very idea that guns might have an offensive capacity.
Dreadclaw69 wrote: Because you contended that using a firearm when we were talking about self-defense was "illegal" .
See this is the problem, I never EVER contended that. You may have misunderstood it that way, but the only time I used the word "illegal" was when I said "Pulling out a gun and shooting someone is illegal" (which it is if you are just murdering someone). But that wasn't confusing because immediately after that, in the very next sentence I go on to say that doing it in self defense is, and I quote: "legal".
It should have been obvious anyway from my words, and the fact we have been talking about this for 16 pages, that I am aware guns are legal for self defense. But even if there was any remaining doubt, I've just explained it to you about eight times. So now I can only conclude that you are deliberately misunderstanding in order to misrepresent and annoy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/03 03:18:14
2014/09/03 03:29:05
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
cincydooley wrote: I think, Smacks, what you really need to do is go fire a few guns while brushing up on U.S. gun law.
Education is everything.
Actually no I don't think I do. Nothing I have said is dependent on knowledge of US gun law. I was talking about offensive and defensive capabilities. Weapons are always always offensive in that sense. That has nothing to do with the legal definition of defense, or legally defined offensive weapons, or a legal offense, or when you use a weapon in self defense, or a defense in court.
I know that you play Super Dungeon Explore, where they make exactly this kind of distinction between offensive and defensive. Why then, is it so difficult to understand in a conversation about the offensive and defensive pros and cons of carrying a [insert anything].
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/03 04:08:23
2014/09/03 05:07:36
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
Smacks wrote: ...but I misjudged the scale of outrage and denial that would be stirred up...
I'm guessing you haven't been in a lot of gun control debates on dakka then
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2014/09/03 11:26:16
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2014/09/03 12:26:36
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
2014/09/03 12:35:34
Subject: Chicago - Crime Rate Drops as Concealed Carry Applications Surge.
Dreadclaw69 wrote: Because you contended that using a firearm when we were talking about self-defense was "illegal" .
See this is the problem, I never EVER contended that. You may have misunderstood it that way, but the only time I used the word "illegal" was when I said "Pulling out a gun and shooting someone is illegal" (which it is if you are just murdering someone). But that wasn't confusing because immediately after that, in the very next sentence I go on to say that doing it in self defense is, and I quote: "legal".
It should have been obvious anyway from my words, and the fact we have been talking about this for 16 pages, that I am aware guns are legal for self defense. But even if there was any remaining doubt, I've just explained it to you about eight times. So now I can only conclude that you are deliberately misunderstanding in order to misrepresent and annoy.
There is no misrepresentation on my part, I can assure you of that. The confusion arose when, after 18 posts talking about self defense, a conversation that you took part in, you responded to a post about self defense stating;
"I think you'll find that in law pulling out a gun and shooting people in considered very offensive and illegal, so I'm not wrong. It's also the meaning of the word. If your action purposefully harms another person, then it is clearly offensive. Just because you can argue that you attacked the other person is 'self defense' does not make it any less of an attack, it just makes it a legal one."
So every effort since then has been extended to you to try and engage with you, clarify what you meant, and bring you back into the discussion. If that answer is insufficient for you I would respectfully draw your attention to the 'Ignore' or Yellow Triangle of Friendship features of the forum.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Smacks wrote: Actually no I don't think I do. Nothing I have said is dependent on knowledge of US gun law.
It actually helps. Or else you may have reconsidered posting that the US "hands out gun permits like candy"
Smacks wrote: I was talking about offensive and defensive capabilities. Weapons are always always offensive in that sense. That has nothing to do with the legal definition of defense, or legally defined offensive weapons, or a legal offense, or when you use a weapon in self defense, or a defense in court.
And the confusion arose because most other people were talking about these topics
Smacks wrote: I know that you play Super Dungeon Explore, where they make exactly this kind of distinction between offensive and defensive. Why then, is it so difficult to understand in a conversation about the offensive and defensive pros and cons of carrying a [insert anything].
Because assuming that all other users in a debate understand that you are using a tabletop games rules as a frame of reference might be getting a discussion off to a ropy start.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/03 12:41:17
That would definitely not be a safe or recommended usage of one's firearm
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
cincydooley wrote: Lovely troll comment. No surprise considering the source.
The Nords are peaceful people and have never been prone to weapons of any sort. She's not a troll, she just believes strongly in her history, as Americans do theirs.
Automatically Appended Next Post: (okay, THAT might've been a troll comment)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/06 02:09:44