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Made in de
Shunting Grey Knight Interceptor






Hi there,

Opening this thread to discuss whether the The Aegis special rule allows you a re-roll 1s when attempting to Deny the Witch on your opponent's blessings.


For the record, it is my opinion that you can't. The Aegis is a Special rule assigned to a unit, and that unit is not the target of the psychic power in question.

The opposing opinion is that a re-roll is not a modifier and is therefore not subject to the restrictions to DtW on blessings in the BRB.

Additionally, as we have to chose the unit which makes the DtW roll, the Aegis does apply.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/26 08:20:09


 
   
Made in im
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





Liverpool

 pocketcanoe wrote:
Additionally, as we have to chose the unit which makes the DtW roll, the Aegis does apply.
You have to choose a unit from those Targeted by the power.
No rule ever allows you to Deny with a unit that was not targeted.
   
Made in nl
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





The Netherlands

The Aegis only works on targeted powers like Maledictions and Witchfires, just like any rule or item that affects the Deny the Witch roll for a specific model or unit.

   
Made in gb
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





Englandia

Re-rolling is not a modifier (at least, it is not defined as such by the rulebook), however unless the wording is similar to "if one or more units in your army have this special rule..." then I cannot see how you would be able to use it unless the unit with that rule is a target of a psychic power..

If I sound like I'm being a condescending butthole, I'm not. Read my reply as neutrally as possible, please and thank you. 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus





 grendel083 wrote:
 pocketcanoe wrote:
Additionally, as we have to chose the unit which makes the DtW roll, the Aegis does apply.
You have to choose a unit from those Targeted by the power.
No rule ever allows you to Deny with a unit that was not targeted.


This thread looks familiar

Didnt we determine that the rules for denying broke when blessings were involved as the process involved picking a unit, but you cant pick a unit when denying a blessing even though it says you have to pick a unit to deny in the deny process.

Anyways Aegis isnt a modifier either. It doesnt change the number needed to roll

But you know my stance on it grendel

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Made in im
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





Liverpool

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
But you know my stance on it grendel
I do indeed

I'll also note that in one part of the rules it states no modifiers, in another no bonuses.

I'll also propose that since there is no valid unit to select, selecting no unit is a far more sensible option than the madness of picking any unit you wish. Less rules abuse that way

For example, with the "Pick any unit you want" house rule, you could have Kharn deny a blessing easier than a lv3 Runepriest could deny a WitchFire that targeted him. And that is wrong on so many levels.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/26 15:36:41


 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus





 grendel083 wrote:
 WrentheFaceless wrote:
But you know my stance on it grendel
I do indeed

I'll also note that in one part of the rules it states no modifiers, in another no bonuses.

I'll also propose that since there is no valid unit to select, selecting no unit is a far more sensible option than the madness of picking any unit you wish. Less rules abuse that way

For example, with the "Pick any unit you want" house rule, you could have Kharn deny a blessing easier than a lv3 Runepriest could deny a WitchFire that targeted him. And that is wrong on so many levels.


Yea theres the two descriptions of DTW, one saying no bonuses, one saying no modifiers.

It doesnt say you can, doesnt say you cant. I havent been rerolling 1s denying blessings personally.

But I can see the side of why it would work

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 WrentheFaceless wrote:
 grendel083 wrote:
 pocketcanoe wrote:
Additionally, as we have to chose the unit which makes the DtW roll, the Aegis does apply.
You have to choose a unit from those Targeted by the power.
No rule ever allows you to Deny with a unit that was not targeted.


This thread looks familiar

Didnt we determine that the rules for denying broke when blessings were involved as the process involved picking a unit, but you cant pick a unit when denying a blessing even though it says you have to pick a unit to deny in the deny process.

Anyways Aegis isnt a modifier either. It doesnt change the number needed to roll

But you know my stance on it grendel


You dont pick units when Denying Blessings.
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus





Fragile wrote:
 WrentheFaceless wrote:
 grendel083 wrote:
 pocketcanoe wrote:
Additionally, as we have to chose the unit which makes the DtW roll, the Aegis does apply.
You have to choose a unit from those Targeted by the power.
No rule ever allows you to Deny with a unit that was not targeted.


This thread looks familiar

Didnt we determine that the rules for denying broke when blessings were involved as the process involved picking a unit, but you cant pick a unit when denying a blessing even though it says you have to pick a unit to deny in the deny process.

Anyways Aegis isnt a modifier either. It doesnt change the number needed to roll

But you know my stance on it grendel


You dont pick units when Denying Blessings.


The Deny The Witch process has you nominate a unit, there is no separate blessing denial process, that has you not nominate a unit

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Made in im
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





Liverpool

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Fragile wrote:
You dont pick units when Denying Blessings.
The Deny The Witch process has you nominate a unit, there is no separate blessing denial process, that has you not nominate a unit
You can't pick a unit for denying a blessing, would have been more accurate.
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus





 grendel083 wrote:
 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Fragile wrote:
You dont pick units when Denying Blessings.
The Deny The Witch process has you nominate a unit, there is no separate blessing denial process, that has you not nominate a unit
You can't pick a unit for denying a blessing, would have been more accurate.


Indeed, which we said as per the rules written how they were in the book, it makes us unable to complete the rest of the DTW process.

Not that I disagree

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




If none of your units were the target of the enemy’s psychic power (the power in question might have been a blessing, a conjuration, or some other power that only affects the Psyker’s own troops) you can still attempt to Deny the Witch. To do so, follow the same process, but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls – you will require rolls of 6 to nullify Warp Charge points..


So follow the process.

1. select one of your units that was a target of the enemy’s psychic power.

As no unit was the target, you cannot select one.

2. You will then need to expend a number of Warp Charge points; declare how many points you will spend and remove them from your pool.

3. Then roll a number of D6 equal to the number of Warp Charge points expended.

4. Apply any of the following modifiers that apply to each individual dice roll: The target unit contains one or more models with - Modifier

As there is no target unit, these would be irrelevant even if you werent told to specifically ignore the modifiers.

5. For each individual result of 6+, one Warp Charge point has been successfully nullified. If the total number of nullified Warp Charge points is equal to or greater than the number of harnessed Warp Charge points, the Deny the Witch test has been passed and the psychic power does not manifest.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Anacortes

Rerolling 1's is not a modifier. It's a reroll. Aegis dosent I say you can't use it for blessings being casted. Just states when attempting to deny the witch. I'm on the side that you can use it when denying blessings. There's permission to use it to deny the witch, no restrictions. It's a go.

In a dog eat dog be a cat. 
   
Made in im
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





Liverpool

Fragile wrote:
1. select one of your units that was a target of the enemy’s psychic power.

As no unit was the target, you cannot select one.
This is the issue that WrentheFaceless is bringing up.
You select one of your units. Not selecting a unit isn't an option. Since you can't select a unit, you can't complete step one in order to progress onto step two. The game grinds to a halt.

My argument in the previous thread was that "no unit" (null) was a valid selection. There was also an argument that "any unit" was just as valid as "no unit" since neither were stated in the denying rules.

Lungpickle wrote:
Rerolling 1's is not a modifier. It's a reroll. Aegis dosent I say you can't use it for blessings being casted. Just states when attempting to deny the witch. I'm on the side that you can use it when denying blessings. There's permission to use it to deny the witch, no restrictions. It's a go.
Except your now denying with a unit that was never the target of the power. Which the Deny rules don't allow.
And no, it doesn't "just states when attempting to deny". It calls out when the unit in question denies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/26 16:42:03


 
   
Made in us
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Well its not "select a unit". Its "select a unit that was a target". So null is perfectly valid.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 grendel083 wrote:
 WrentheFaceless wrote:


I'll also note that in one part of the rules it states no modifiers, in another no bonuses.



Modifier is a subset of bonuses, so they aren't necessarily contradictory. A re-roll of a failed result is certainly a bonus, so while it might comply with one rule, it does not comply with "no bonuses". Therefore, Aegis doesn't work.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/27 14:28:07


 
   
Made in us
Scuttling Genestealer




adrift in a warm place

If there is the "nominate a unit that wasn't targeted by the ability to DtW" step, then you have things happening like Eldrad riding around in a wave serpent denying from across the board. I think a "null" choice for picking a unit to DtW is pretty reasonable.

Also point this thread to another recent one http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/612880.page where this was hashed out

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/24 20:22:50


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Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

You just dug up a month old thread to direct the discussion to a more recent thread...

 
   
 
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