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 Kilkrazy wrote:
You are part of the reason why sales dropped 8% last year.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I am serious. I too am part of the reason,

Herzlos wrote:
I don't think he's being serious. But I am part of the reason for the decline;

 TheKbob wrote:
I'm part of the reason, too.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I'm part of the reason as well.

 Musashi363 wrote:
I'm proud to be part of the reason.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
I am part of the decline also

Sounds like a hashtag campaign in the making.

#I'mpartofthereason




All we need now is a vitriolic response from Gamesworkshop, with Kirby ranting that "Wargamers are dead! Wargamers don't need to be our customers!"

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

All we need now is a vitriolic response from Gamesworkshop, with Kirby ranting that "Wargamers are dead! Wargamers don't need to be our customers!"

Well, if that quote allegedly from Jervis that keeps getting thrown around is, in fact, a legitimate quote, GW clearly does believe that Wargamers are a minority of their customers, though I have no idea how they'd come to that conclusion, considering

We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants. These things are otiose in a niche.

This might be an odd thought, but is Kirby from a business background or a games/model design background, because he might start making a little sense if it's the latter.

 Small, Far Away wrote:
This might be an odd thought, but is Kirby from a business background or a games/model design background, because he might start making a little sense if it's the latter.

He's a businessman. Only entered the wargaming industry when he signed on at GW. I can't remember where he came from, though.

IIRC he was the CEO of a shampoo company prior to GW? I don't remember for sure. Maybe that was Mark Wells.

Either way, he doesn't make sense regardless of his background.


EDIT: Hmm, google-fu says:
" Prior to joining Games Workshop, he worked for six years for a distributor of fantasy games in the UK and was an Inspector of Taxes."

also, this is interesting:

"Mr. Kirby is Visiting Professor of Business and Management to the Derbyshire Business School at the University of Derby."

Those poor, poor students.

Welcome to the real world: people with a passion create something, run it with love and care, and while it's small and pure, it's a blast.

Eventually, the bean counters come in, take it over to "improve" everything, and run it into the ground in the name of greed, not giving a damn about understanding what it is they're ruining.

'tis the way of the world, really.

Pricing is the main thing I suspect. They continue to price it like a premium, niche item.

It was a strategy that worked when they were the head honchos, unchallenged in terms of worldbuilding, models etc.

Now, there are any number of companies looking to drag them off the throne, and they're pumping out high quality models that are far cheaper. On top of that, these companies are creating their own interesting universes or drawing from popular history.

There's actual competition for the attentions of wargamers now, and downward pressure on pricing because of economic problems in the wider economy on top of competition.

Then there are smaller things, like having a place to play. Seems there are less and less of those about, as far as I can tell.

 slowthar wrote:
Welcome to the real world: people with a passion create something, run it with love and care, and while it's small and pure, it's a blast.

Eventually, the bean counters come in, take it over to "improve" everything, and run it into the ground in the name of greed, not giving a damn about understanding what it is they're ruining.

'tis the way of the world, really.

Hey, careful there - Reaper was founded by bean counters! (Look up their videos on the founding of Reaper - they worked as accountants for manufacturing firms, and decided that having hands on experience in manufacturing would be good for helping them understand their clients better.)

I have no problems with the bean counters at Reaper.

The Auld Grump

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Spoiler:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
You are part of the reason why sales dropped 8% last year.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I am serious. I too am part of the reason,

Herzlos wrote:
I don't think he's being serious. But I am part of the reason for the decline;

 TheKbob wrote:
I'm part of the reason, too.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I'm part of the reason as well.

 Musashi363 wrote:
I'm proud to be part of the reason.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
I am part of the decline also

Sounds like a hashtag campaign in the making.

#I'mpartofthereason



GWgate instead of Gamergate?

All we need now is a vitriolic response from Gamesworkshop, with Kirby ranting that "Wargamers are dead! Wargamers don't need to be our customers!"

#impartofthereason

Because $3000 dollars for an ork army is insane.

 Bullockist wrote:
#impartofthereason

Because $3000 dollars for an ork army is insane.

Unless it's a real one, then that's a pretty standard price.

AFAIK Kirby was an accountant before he came to run GW.

Accountants aren't businessmen.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
AFAIK Kirby was an accountant before he came to run GW.

Accountants aren't businessmen.

Think his educational background is in accounting.

Before GW, he worked for TSR UK...the game distributor mentioned above. Though, he didnt work on the business side, he was low level editor (proof reader type...not content) and wrote an occaisional article for the UK version of Dragon (forget the name off the top of my head). While there, he also has author credentials on one Adventure Module. That is mostly from when I know him.

Prior to that...he was a tax man.

 Small, Far Away wrote:
This might be an odd thought, but is Kirby from a business background or a games/model design background, because he might start making a little sense if it's the latter.

Buisness

Accountants have a lot of influence on business decisions, you can tell by how much cost cutting measures that have been done by GW over the last several years. They have trimmed so much "fat" at GW it's going to be interesting to see what GW does now to stay in the black.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
AFAIK Kirby was an accountant before he came to run GW.

Accountants aren't businessmen.

Think his educational background is in accounting.

Before GW, he worked for TSR UK...the game distributor mentioned above. Though, he didnt work on the business side, he was low level editor (proof reader type...not content) and wrote an occaisional article for the UK version of Dragon (forget the name off the top of my head). While there, he also has author credentials on one Adventure Module. That is mostly from when I know him.

Prior to that...he was a tax man.

Ah, so TSR is where he learned how to drive a company into the ground.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
Every other codex has been an attempt to squeeze in something new at the margins, whether it's by increasing the scale of the game, or by making "unique" units that really aren't that unique, or by dreaming up nonsense units that probably shouldn't exist due to the stupidity of their backstory or model design or both.

I´ve noticed people have been whining about not many new units being introduced in the recent codices ( not nearly as many as in the codices before them. ) Dark Eldar for example didn´t get almost any new models. So some folk aren´t happy about no new models, and some aren´t happy about new models being introduced.

I´m starting to think no matter what GW does it can´t win with some people, because some people are never satisfied. With anything. Ever.

I find a part of the community is just plain unreasonable.

( Not directed at you, CalgarsPimpHand. )

 RunicFIN wrote:

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
Every other codex has been an attempt to squeeze in something new at the margins, whether it's by increasing the scale of the game, or by making "unique" units that really aren't that unique, or by dreaming up nonsense units that probably shouldn't exist due to the stupidity of their backstory or model design or both.

I´ve noticed people have been whining about not many new units being introduced in the recent codices ( not nearly as many as in the codices before them. ) Dark Eldar for example didn´t get almost any new models. So some folk aren´t happy about no new models, and some aren´t happy about new models being introduced.

I´m starting to think no matter what GW does it can´t win with some people, because some people are never satisfied. With anything. Ever.

I find a part of the community is just plain unreasonable.

( Not directed at you, CalgarsPimpHand. )

I think you're making a mistake with your observation. Sure some people are never satisfied with anything, that's just how some people are. however, that only applies to the matter of people being upset with GW whether they do or do not add new models to a codex is only applicable if the people complaining about the additional models are the same ones complaining about not getting new models. I hope you can see the importance of that distinction. Considering that GW is the biggest company in the hobby and 40K is the most popular game I think what you're seeing is that 40K players form such a large and diverse group that there will always be people who don't like what GW does with a codex update. Of course, the fact that you can't please everyone is true for every company that manufactures anything so it's not a GW problem or a GW community problem it's just a fact of life.

( Not directed at any individual. )

I don´t think the same individual whines about no new models and new models being introduced. I hope that no one is that paradoxical... but one can always hope. You can´t please everyone ( occasionally anyone ) indeed, and it feels like GW doesn´t get same leeway regarding this fact while other manufacturers seem to. GW has done more annoying things than other manufacturers, sure, but they also aren´t forgiven even half the things other manufacturers do, it seems. It´s an attitude thing and often people just see things the way they want to see them, not the way they are. Like I said, I feel part of the general wargaming community is just plain unreasonable and overly sensitive. If someone quits a wargame as a whole because of things that comprise 5% of the content of the entire game or it´s mechanics, then I see them as never having loved said game in the first place. I can understand it if pretty much everything is wrong about a game in their mind ( which seems to be the case with a lot of people... either a game is perfect and the manufacturer a god or everything about it and it´s manufacturer sucks, there is no middle ground. Dunno what makes people take extreme stands. Maybe it feels more exciting. )

It also seems people have illusions regarding the differences when it comes to GW and other games:

-People saying that communities of other games are better. People are the same everywhere. There are good 40k communities and bad 40k communities, and there are good and bad Infinity and Warmachine communities. There are different people, and that´s all these communities are. You see great folks on 40k forums just the same as any other games forum. Playing a certain wargame doesn´t make people nasty/nice.

-Some claim balance issues do not exist in any other game. They exist in all games, in different magnitudes.

-Others say people never threaten to quit/sell their miniatures regarding other manufacturers. They do.

These things just aren´t true. Before counterargumenting do read what I wrote - I´m tired of users accidentally/deliberatelly arguing besides the point. If I say balance issues exist in all games in different magnitudes I mean just that, and nothing more. Should someone interpret it as anything else its their own fault, not mine.

The "depth" of hatred is the same - people threaten to quit, whine, sell their miniatures and actually quit on every wargame forum of any manufacturer. It happens all the time.

Sure GW probably gets more hatred amount-wise. GW also has the biggest playerbase numerically. Do the math.

I don't think people are honestly claiming things NEVER happen in other gaming communities, regarding complaints, quitting, and so on.

I thought it was clear that the amount, however, in other games is significantly less, and arguably comparatively less considering the numbers difference.

The reason GW doesn't get 'forgiven' is that they've done nothing worth forgiving them for. Any change done for the positive has been met equally with a change for the worse. The quick release schedule has the side effect of blander, slimmer codices that lack any real soul or character. Any new and cool kits are met with significant price increases. Selling a rules only book for the new edition that had to be purchased with two other books.

If you want to see people 'forgiving' GW, they'd have to actually make some steps that are overall positive and in line with current trends in the wargaming scene. Things like free, downloadable rules; cheaper minis; balanced and play-tested rules; company forums that take in feedback; and previewing their new products in a modern way, rather than the current hush hush surprise method they currently use.

So yeah, you can't please every single person. You can please a pretty significant majority however and constantly seek to improve by taking in all the feedback and distilling out all the gibberish and nonsense and finding the worthwhile stuff to consider.

It isn't easy, but its doable. The success of other companies is testament to that.

GW would be forgiven more if they actually communicated with their customers. That would be step #1.

 MWHistorian wrote:
GW would be forgiven more if they actually communicated with their customers. That would be step #1.

That's like saying Jews would've forgiven Hitler had he visited the death camps more.

 -DE- wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
GW would be forgiven more if they actually communicated with their customers. That would be step #1.

That's like saying Jews would've forgiven Hitler had he visited the death camps more.

....I agree with MWH, but, uh, I think the analogy is a bit much.

Too soon?

Is there still enough time for me to change that to Stalin and gulags?

I did say that was step #1. The first of many steps.

 -DE- wrote:
Too soon?

Is there still enough time for me to change that to Stalin and gulags?

To be fair, I still kind of chuckled (at both).

In any event, I still disagree with you, inasmuch as GW could make changes that would make it easier to get new customers and to convince old customers to return.

 -DE- wrote:
Too soon?

Is there still enough time for me to change that to Stalin and gulags?

Nope. No time. Godwin's Law. The thread is over. Move along now, nothing to see here.

All these talk over GW not being able to please everyone is neither here nor there.

GW doesn't care about pleasing its customers. It doesn't know what we want, and it doesn't care to find out because "Market research is otiose in a niche market". - Tom Kirby. We buy whatever they make, period.

Or not.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

GW doesn't care about pleasing its customers. It doesn't know what we want

Can you prove that there aren´t people within Games Workshop that care about their customers? Can you prove "GW doesn´t know what we want"?

Market research doesn´t cover even half of the things that comprise "knowing what the community wants" incase we are talking about the same thing. And just because someone has said they don´t do market research doesn´t actually mean anything. You can bet GW follows their competitors and is staying aware of the market and it´s shifts. The idea that they really would function completely blind as a multimillion company is absurd and fictional. Ofcourse they do research on some level.

Thing is, none of you actually know, you assume. So do I, but I´ve spent enough time in the world of corporate business to know there´s not a single company as big as GW that doesn´t do any kind of research. Just doesn´t happen, and a pseudo PR statement from someone like Kirby doesn´t really prove anything. He might infact be completely oblivious to some of the things the company does ( like research for example ) or he might be trying to build trust and visions of a positive future to investors by making it seem like they don´t need to do anything to dominate the market. I´ve seen that happen before too but I won´t mention any names.

You can stop quoting Kirby now, as it really doesn´t mean anything on a concretical level. In the end it´s just words. And if you ( not directed at an individual ) don´t trust GW and their word in anything positive, why do you take something negative like Kirbys statement about research as the ultimate truth?

I´ll answer that for you: Because you are biased and unable to remain objective, seeing lies and truths where you see fit, and that´s that.

If you´ve ever worked in your life you´ll know things are quite different inside the company than what is shown to the outside, in both good and bad.

I´m pretty sure there are a ton of employees who know what the community would want, and who care about the game and go to work every day trying to better different areas of it. Just because it doesn´t translate into what community member X wants doesn´t mean they don´t know. Everyone wants different things and as concluded before the community will never be satisfied for that very reason, and in a way "knowing what we want" is an unreachable goal. Some want simpler rules, some are unsatisfied with simplified codices. Some want new models upon Codex release, some are disappointed when there are none. It is known.

 RunicFIN wrote:

Can you prove that there aren´t people within Games Workshop that care about their customers? Can you prove "GW doesn´t know what we want"?

Market research doesn´t cover even half of the things that comprise "knowing what the community wants" incase we are talking about the same thing. And just because someone has said they don´t do market research doesn´t actually mean anything. You can bet GW follows their competitors and is staying aware of the market and it´s shifts. The idea that they really would function completely blind as a multimillion company is absurd and fictional. Ofcourse they do research on some level.

I´m pretty sure there are a ton of employees who know what the community would want, and who care about the game and go to work every day trying to better different areas of it. Just because it doesn´t translate into what community member X wants doesn´t mean they don´t know. Everyone wants different things and as concluded before the community will never be satisfied for that very reason, and in a way "knowing what we want" is an unreachable goal. Some want simpler rules, some are unsatisfied with simplified codices. Some want new models upon Codex release, some are disappointed when there are none. It is known.

So you're claiming that even though they say in their financial report that they don't do market research, they do market research, or otherwise gather market data? They explicitly state they don't ask the market what it wants, but you're assuming they try and figure out what the market wants?

Then why would they proudly state those things in their financial report? What would they have to gain?

You seem to have some sort of fallacy in your head that it's not possible for companies to reject common sense. I can tell you from experience that in some places, the company culture is absurd, and common sense has no place. In fact, they're somewhat common. From their financial report, GW appears to quite possibly be one of those places.

What other companies do you know of that don't engage in social media? That don't do marketing? That don't have sales? That don't engage (or even acknowledge) their playerbase? I literally know of none. Hell, I write a beer brewing app in my spare time that I have a Facebook page for so I can gather feedback.

As a (former) long time WoW player, among other games, I can appreciate your point that all communities are filled with people complaining. It does get old. However, I think you're giving WAY too much credit to GW being run properly and actually knowing what's going on. Just because there are complainers in every community doesn't mean every community (and company that community is around) is the same.