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I think that's actually the biggest point of contention for many: is it actually elective surgery or not?

Think Manning got transfered to a Federal Pen to have that happen

 cincydooley wrote:
I think that's actually the biggest point of contention for many: is it actually elective surgery or not?

That is why there are so many obstacles to it, to make sure those that do get it aren't ones where it would count as 'elective'.

 Jihadin wrote:
Pattaya to

I was going for the old "Capitol of Thailand" joke, since with sense humor of most have here, it would seem the proper place!

 cincydooley wrote:
I'm not sure if I think these kinds of absurdly expensive procedures should be covered by ACA provided health care

I know that wasn't your whole sentence, but I'd like to point out that a male to female reassignment is approx $20k, and an average childbirth is $30k for vaginal delivery and $50k for a C-section.

It's only "absurdly expensive" because for the gender reassignment surgery, it's 100% out of pocket, usually.

I don't think that's entirely accurate.

Male to female is cheaper and for the actual surgery comes in lower (around 20k) but female to male is about double that.

And that's just for the surgery. That doesn't include all of the requirements beforehand and the hormone therapy and transitional counseling after.

Granted, it's not a bone marrow transplant, but for a... And say this with hesitation.... non-necessary* elective procedure the cost is pretty darn high.

*i do understand the psychological impacts for transgendered folk exist, which is why I mentioned earlier that there are significant stipulations to get one covered.

I'm not sure how getting a sex change operation is going to fix the emotional and mental problems that led to the decision to get a sex change. I've heard more than one story of someone regretting their operation and realizing they were getting a physical change in an attempt to fix their depression.

That is why there is normally a procedure to check if a person want a sex change for the right reasons.

2nd sex change country Iran??? lots of females that want to be male????

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
That is why there is normally a procedure to check if a person want a sex change for the right reasons.

2nd sex change country Iran??? lots of females that want to be male????

Given the way women are reported to be treated in those countries, it's understandable.

The VA covers this surgery and similar treatments if indicated.

Relapse wrote:

Given the way women are reported to be treated in those countries, it's understandable.

Wasn't there a big dust up in some news awhile back about some of the "women" on the Iranian soccer/olympic teams not being quite women?? In one case, I do believe the stink was raised about the athlete not having been born a woman.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I suppose plastic surgery is now something that's covered by Obamacare.

Thinking of gender re-assignment as plastic surgery is extraordinarily ignorant in this day and age.

 d-usa wrote:
The VA covers this surgery and similar treatments if indicated.

Well, it appears I was wrong about what exactly we cover...

http://www.va.gov/vhapublications/ViewPublication.asp?pub_ID=2863

 sebster wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I suppose plastic surgery is now something that's covered by Obamacare.

Thinking of gender re-assignment as plastic surgery is extraordinarily ignorant in this day and age.

While I agree, it's not wrong to say that a large portion of the procedures one undergoes in gender reassignment (especially male to female) are "plastic surgery" in nature.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
That is why there is normally a procedure to check if a person want a sex change for the right reasons.

2nd sex change country Iran??? lots of females that want to be male????

Almost entirely male to female. And it isn't just permitted under law, government will actually pay for the operation. This is the same country where homosexuality can bring the death penalty.

Sexual taboos are really weird.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:
While I agree, it's not wrong to say that a large portion of the procedures one undergoes in gender reassignment (especially male to female) are "plastic surgery" in nature.

Sure, but to claim the procedure as a whole is plastic surgery (and therefore entirely cosmetic) is to completely miss the point.

 cincydooley wrote:

 sebster wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I suppose plastic surgery is now something that's covered by Obamacare.

Thinking of gender re-assignment as plastic surgery is extraordinarily ignorant in this day and age.

While I agree, it's not wrong to say that a large portion of the procedures one undergoes in gender reassignment (especially male to female) are "plastic surgery" in nature.

It's probably just schematics about how certain words are used.

I think many people just think of "cosmetic" surgery when they hear "plastic" surgery. Which could then extend to the sex reassignment process being dismissed as a "I don't like how I look" problem instead of an "I don't feel that I am what my body appears to be" (trying to condense gender identity stuff into a single quote is hard and awkward). Not that I'm saying that this is the argument you are making.

Plastic surgery would actually be a correct term IMO. While it does include "cosmetic" surgery it also includes "reconstructive" surgery and other surgeries that deal with form and function. I do think "cosmetic" surgery would be the wrong name for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@sebster: "Plastic surgery" is the correct term for the specialty though. Reconstructing a breast after cancer, creating a new face after an accident, making sure your hand still works after 3rd degree burns, and reattaching sewered limbs are all "plastic surgery".

I think I see where you are coming from though, see my reply above.

 d-usa wrote:
@sebster: "Plastic surgery" is the correct term for the specialty though. Reconstructing a breast after cancer, creating a new face after an accident, making sure your hand still works after 3rd degree burns, and reattaching sewered limbs are all "plastic surgery".

I think I see where you are coming from though, see my reply above.

Yeah, and I think your responses to cincydooley and myself cover the issue very well, clarifying what I think we were all trying to get across.

I mean, if someone posted a definition of gender reassignment and said it largely consisted of hormone replacement and plastic surgery, I wouldn't feel the need to respond. I felt the need to respond because ZebioLizard2 was pretty clearly trying to dismiss gender re-assignment as cosmetic and trivial. I should have chosen my words more clearly, but I think its clear the point I was making, and why ZebioLizard2's point was so gakky.

Trying to decide if Sex Change Operation would make a good band name. I could see it being a punk band.

 cincydooley wrote:
I think that's actually the biggest point of contention for many: is it actually elective surgery or not?

It's only "elective" in the sense that cancer treatment is "elective". Sure, you can decide to leave the problem untreated and it might not kill you, but it's a serious medical problem and the hormones + surgery treatment is the conventionally accepted solution to it.

 trexmeyer wrote:
I'm not sure how getting a sex change operation is going to fix the emotional and mental problems that led to the decision to get a sex change. I've heard more than one story of someone regretting their operation and realizing they were getting a physical change in an attempt to fix their depression.

It fixes those problems because getting a sex change operation very rarely has anything to do with things like depression. The fundamental problem is "my body doesn't match what my brain is telling me it should look like", the depression is a side effect of having a serious problem and having to deal with bigots who think you're a hell-bound sinner or disgusting pervert because of it. I'm sure a non-zero number of people regret the decision and did it for the wrong reasons, but that's not at all the normal situation.

You should probably research it a bit Peregrine because the facts seem quite a bit different than you what you are suggesting. No, I'm not going to argue it with you. For your own benefit look it up.

 trexmeyer wrote:
You should probably research it a bit Peregrine because the facts seem quite a bit different than you what you are suggesting. No, I'm not going to argue it with you. For your own benefit look it up.

I don't know what "facts" you're talking about, but you seem to be making a "the plural of anecdote is not data" mistake here. You're talking about treatment that is considered the standard solution to a well-documented problem, with pretty strong consensus among the experts that it's the right thing to do. If you want to argue against that consensus then you need to provide more than a handful of "OH GOD WHAT HAVE I DONE" anecdotes.

text removed.

reds8n

Who says I haven't researched it? Maybe I have, and just haven't found your argument to be very compelling? If you want to change my opinion instead of just "winning" a forum argument then why not post some of your evidence so I can read it and respond to it instead of just saying "go find it yourself"? If your evidence is as good as you seem to think it is then this should be pretty easy.

 sebster wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
@sebster: "Plastic surgery" is the correct term for the specialty though. Reconstructing a breast after cancer, creating a new face after an accident, making sure your hand still works after 3rd degree burns, and reattaching sewered limbs are all "plastic surgery".

I think I see where you are coming from though, see my reply above.

Yeah, and I think your responses to cincydooley and myself cover the issue very well, clarifying what I think we were all trying to get across.

I mean, if someone posted a definition of gender reassignment and said it largely consisted of hormone replacement and plastic surgery, I wouldn't feel the need to respond. I felt the need to respond because ZebioLizard2 was pretty clearly trying to dismiss gender re-assignment as cosmetic and trivial. I should have chosen my words more clearly, but I think its clear the point I was making, and why ZebioLizard2's point was so gakky.

Except it is plastic surgery, the same field that does Reconstructive Surgery and the treatment of burns right?

I really shouldn't post here when I'm not feeling well, apparently I can't get what I'm saying across otherwise, but yeah I'm not meaning it at all like cosmetic surgery, typically that sort of field has had challenges in its use in medical care due to cosmetic surgery tainting it's image and as a result people kind of dislike seeing that within the context of being paid for by healthcare, despite it's valid uses in the medical community such as reconstructive surgery.

I don't know much at all about Hormone replacement, I had thought those were covered far more easily beforehand and didn't feel the need to discuss them because I had thought they were something already covered by the per-existing healthcare, considering how easy it is to gain those medical drugs for various ailments that would require their usage to balance things out.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Except it is plastic surgery, the same field that does Reconstructive Surgery and the treatment of burns right?

Uh huh. Were you thinking of burns victims and reconstructive surgery when you wrote;

"I suppose plastic surgery is now something that's covered by Obamacare.

Why not, healthcare is bloated as it is, lets throw everything on there."

 sebster wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Except it is plastic surgery, the same field that does Reconstructive Surgery and the treatment of burns right?

Uh huh. Were you thinking of burns victims and reconstructive surgery when you wrote;

"I suppose plastic surgery is now something that's covered by Obamacare.

Why not, healthcare is bloated as it is, lets throw everything on there."

The difference still is, and will always be that thin line of "Medical Necessity" vs "elective" when it comes to reconstructive/plastic surgery.... I mean, often times, medical insurance will cover other procedures that are "elective" but are more of a "you can get this done now, or wait 2 years and have this thing really blow up." in the form of a 3k outpatient surgery NOW, vs. a 20k operation later.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
The difference still is, and will always be that thin line of "Medical Necessity" vs "elective" when it comes to reconstructive/plastic surgery.... I mean, often times, medical insurance will cover other procedures that are "elective" but are more of a "you can get this done now, or wait 2 years and have this thing really blow up." in the form of a 3k outpatient surgery NOW, vs. a 20k operation later.

I'm not sure how that relates to my post.

 sebster wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
The difference still is, and will always be that thin line of "Medical Necessity" vs "elective" when it comes to reconstructive/plastic surgery.... I mean, often times, medical insurance will cover other procedures that are "elective" but are more of a "you can get this done now, or wait 2 years and have this thing really blow up." in the form of a 3k outpatient surgery NOW, vs. a 20k operation later.

I'm not sure how that relates to my post.

In the context of the discussion, it could be that he's saying this surgery is elective rather than necessary. But that's just the first interpretation of his post that occurred.

Since I really have no care, beef, issue, "give a damn button" or concern about this procedure. I will side 110% that if patient has a history, documentation, and this procedure will help them recover then by all means we as a Nation can pay for the procedure. My justification. If I can purchase mini's, paint, books, brushes, source material and what ever that is deemed constructive that falls under PTSD treatment then by DAMN they can get the medical attention they need. Though with one "but". I would like all avenues EXPLORED and TRIED to ensure that the individual is 110% willing to commit to the procedure

Edit

I am not a violent man but if I witness someone being harass or intimidated then i would step up to the plate and have them direct their attention to me (brother, Mayor in a Minor city on the Shore is gay and did considered this and I have gotten in one altercation when someone at the Green Turtle took offense when they eave dropped on us)

 Jihadin wrote:
Since I really have no care, beef, issue, "give a damn button" or concern about this procedure. I will side 110% that if patient has a history, documentation, and this procedure will help them recover then by all means we as a Nation can pay for the procedure. My justification. If I can purchase mini's, paint, books, brushes, source material and what ever that is deemed constructive that falls under PTSD treatment then by DAMN they can get the medical attention they need. Though with one "but". I would like all avenues EXPLORED and TRIED to ensure that the individual is 110% willing to commit to the procedure

Edit

I am not a violent man but if I witness someone being harass or intimidated then i would step up to the plate and have them direct their attention to me (brother, Mayor in a Minor city on the Shore is gay and did considered this and I have gotten in one altercation when someone at the Green Turtle took offense when they eave dropped on us)

Not to press a personal matter, but has 40k helped your PTSD? (I'm assuming by your post you have it) Have heard of LOTS of military people being tuned in to 40k, but never as a treatment