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I'd say so yes... Gets hot is a rule associated with a weapon with soulblaze then. If that weapon blows up in your face (and it's causes a wound... which is needed) there's a chance that the unit gets set ablaze further....



Don't fire it if you can't stand the heat...



I asked around at the shop today as well. The employees of the shop would agree with me that it's the incinerator causing the wounds, and not some arbitrary rule in a vacuum...

They might have agreed, but they are wrong.

The rule is definately causing the wounds.

It specifically states that it inflicts the hits at the weapons str and AP, not that the weapon itself inflicts d6 hits.

Therefor, all rules associated with a wound from the weapon (i.e. strikedown, concussive, soulblaze) are discounted.

Indeed,
Why would No Escape, and a great deal of other Special Rules which generate secondary Hit's/Wounds, need to state we use the Weapons Strength and Armour Piercing of the weapon if transferring the Weapon's Profile to Hits/Wounds generated by Special Rules is default?

 Elmir wrote:
I'm sorry, how can you say that the weapon isn't causing it if the "no escape" rule is a rule associated with the weapon?

Because No Escape isn't a rule associated with the weapon. It's a rule associated with Open Topped vehicles.

No Escape doesn't say to apply hits from the weapon. It says to apply hits using the S and AP of the weapon. So it uses the S and AP of the weapon. It won't apply any other special rules belonging to the weapon, because it doesn't say to do so.

Here's another question: would you argue that a unit suffering hits when charging (due to wall off death) wouldn't get soulblaze...

Yes, Soulblaze would apply to Wall of Death hits, because Wall of Death is resolved using the weapon.

That's the difference. Wall of Death uses the weapon. No Escape just uses two specific attributes of the weapon.

If I were to push a man against a wall who then had a bookshelf fall on his head that killed him, I would still be the cause of his demise. Without my action, he would have never been killed. My action caused that bookshelf to fall on his head. No lawyer would ever get away with stating "oh no, the bookshelf is to blame, not my client... Same deal here, without that incinerator, he would have never suffered the wounds. The incinerator is the cause of the wound suffered.

Sure. And without the rules for building an army, that incinerator would never have been included in the army in the first place, so what the model is actually being wounded by is the Force Org Chart.

No?

Game Rules are not a court of law. We look at the direct cause of the wound. If you're going to start tracing back the causality to a butterfly flapping its wings in Brazil, we're never going to finish the game.

I hate to break it to you... But your assement that no escape is part of an open topped vehicle is completely wrong...

no escape is a rule of the template WEAPON... not of an open topped vehicle. Check where it is.

Template weapons have the Ignores Cover, Wall of Death and No Escape special rules. Wounds inflicted by template weapons are allocated following the normal rules. Template weapons cannot fire Snap Shots.

And THIS is the exact wording of the no escape rule:

If a Template weapon hits a building’s Fire Point or an Open-topped vehicle and there is a unit embarked inside that building or vehicle, then in addition to any other effects that unit suffers D6 hits, resolved at the Strength and AP of the weapon. These hits are Randomly Allocated.

So... your reasoning again? I would like to see you refute this with actual rules quotes, rather than just falsely claiming that rules are associated with open topped rather than weapons. I put the most relevant wordings for the case that special rules for the weapon do apply to no escape as well in bold.

The point is that the No Escape rule does not say that it iuses the special rules of the weapon, it only uses the Str and AP of the weapon that targets the transport.

Do you have a rules quote that says you use the special rules of the template weapon for No Escape?

If not then you do not use the special rules of the weapon, you only use the Str and AP.

The "in addition to any other effects" is talking about shaken or stunned results on the vehicle, which affect the passengers.

no no, it EXPLICITLY says: "in addition to any other effect" it suffers D6 hits... you can't just ignore that line or assume it only applies to things you think it applies to. The special rules of the weapon that causes the hits are applied.

I even put it in bold, next question... please...

PS: here's a little help if you are confused about the world "any" in this case btw: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/any Any doesn't just imply things, it means you have to take into consideration ALL the effects that can be applicable. This includes the soulblaze of the weapon.

Right "in addition to any other effect" such as a vehicle being stunned forcing passengers to only fire snap shots if they fail a LD test...

So you still have no rules reference that states Soulblaze or Concussive apply.

Where does it say in the rules that Soulblaze or Concussive applies?

It says to use the Str and AP of the weapon so find the rule about Soulblaze.

It says to apply hits using the S and AP of the weapon. So it uses the S and AP of the weapon. It won't apply any other special rules belonging to the weapon, because it doesn't say to do so.

'In addition' are key words within that sentence, informing us that the D6 Hit's being generated... well... literally in addition to something else. That something else in this situation would have to be any of the default things which happen to a Embarked Unit when it's Transport is Hit. We know this because it would not only be an impossibility for something to be 'in addition' to itself, but it would also create endless loops, time shifts and all sorts of other problems.

Using No Escape as an example:
If the Hits generated are in addition to other effects, then how is a Special Rule that would need to be present on the Hit to function 'in addition' to the Hit itself?

 DeathReaper wrote:

Where does it say in the rules that Soulblaze or Concussive applies?

It says to use the Str and AP of the weapon so find the rule about Soulblaze.

It says to apply hits using the S and AP of the weapon. So it uses the S and AP of the weapon. It won't apply any other special rules belonging to the weapon, because it doesn't say to do so.

ANY, I even linked you the meaning of the word...

Any effect that can be applied, is applied. What on earth makes you think soulblaze falls outside of the category "any"?

 Elmir wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Where does it say in the rules that Soulblaze or Concussive applies?

It says to use the Str and AP of the weapon so find the rule about Soulblaze.

It says to apply hits using the S and AP of the weapon. So it uses the S and AP of the weapon. It won't apply any other special rules belonging to the weapon, because it doesn't say to do so.

ANY, I even linked you the meaning of the word...

Any effect that can be applied, is applied. What on earth makes you think soulblaze falls outside of the category "any"?

OK, so I apply the No Escape. That is an effect, right? Therefore it falls under the "any effect" clause. This means I get to trigger No Escape again. Oh wait, that also falls under the "any effect" clause. Now I get to trigger No Escape again. Repeat ad infinitum.

JinxDragon wrote:

If the Hits generated are in addition to other effects, then how is a Special Rule that would need to be present on the Hit to function 'in addition' to the Hit itself?

It is... It is present from the very start. Some people have falsely stated that no escape is associated with an open topped vehicle. It's not. It's a rule associated with all template weapons (this includes the incinerator), and the incinerator has the effect soulblaze. That rule says that the unit inside suffers any (read: ALL) of the effects on top of D6 hits. You can't go cherry pick which rules do and do not apply at your own discretion if the word ANY is there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:


OK, so I apply the No Escape. That is an effect, right? Therefore it falls under the "any effect" clause. This means I get to trigger No Escape again. Oh wait, that also falls under the "any effect" clause. Now I get to trigger No Escape again. Repeat ad infinitum.

No... the no escape rule say any OTHER effects... Claiming an inifinte loop is grasping at straws at best.

Any additional effect is the whole Rule, it is up to you to show how that Soul Blaze is present in the equation without requiring No Escape's assistance. As you are trying to apply the Soulblaze effect via the No Escape Special Rule, I think it is very clear that it can not fall under the 'any other effect' clause. Without those Hits it is not possible to state that Soulblaze is present on the Models in question, therefore it can not be something that is 'addition' to those very Hits.

As Soul Blaze is not present at the beginning on the Embarked Unit like you are claiming, this can easily be proven by simply removing the No Escape Special Rule from the equation and seeing if Soul Blaze remains on the Embarked Unit, it can not be added as an 'additional effect' without specific mention.

I'm afraid I'm not with you on that one.

Here's my reasoning in a straight line, because you've got me confused right now... I'll be using a DE venom for instance with some warriors inside.

I hit the venom with the template of a an incinerator. The incinerator has the following rules:

- Ignore cover (possible consequence for jink, but not this case)
- Wall of death (no consequences here)
- Soulblaze
- no escape (applies, because I'm hitting an open topped vehicle).

here's that "no escape" rule again: f a Template weapon hits a building’s Fire Point or an Open-topped vehicle and there is a unit embarked inside that building or vehicle, then in addition to any other effects that unit suffers D6 hits, resolved at the Strength and AP of the weapon. These hits are Randomly Allocated.

So the unit would suffer :
- D6 hits at S and AP of the weapon firing
- Ignore cover (doesn't apply to the unit inside)
- Wall of death (doesn't apply here, no charged are made)
- Soulblaze (if they suffer a wound, this would kick in).

- No escape no longer applies, because the hits aren't against an open topped vehicle anymore... This is just to debunk happyJew's weird "infinite loop" thinking, I would never assume that it would loop...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JinxDragon wrote:


Soul Blaze is not present at the beginning on the Embarked Unit like you are claiming, this can easily be proven by simply removing the No Escape Special Rule from the equation and seeing if Soul Blaze remains on the Embarked Unit.

My god, I'm not claiming soulblaze is present on a UNIT. I'm claiming soulblaze is present on the weapon. The same weapon that has the no escape rule to begin with... It's the same source! Does that make it more clear?

You are not hitting the unit with an Incinerator. It is a Template weapon. You are hitting it with a weapon that has the same stats as an Incinerator and deals D6 hits due to the No Escape rule.

If a Template weapon hits a building’s Fire Point or an Open-topped vehicle and there is a unit embarked inside that building or vehicle, then in addition to any other effects that unit suffers D6 hits, resolved at the Strength and AP of the weapon. These hits are Randomly Allocated.

That's in addition to any other effects of the building's Fire Point or the open-topped vehicle being hit. These 'effects' are covered under the heading 'Effects Of Damage On Passengers' for vehicles. They would suffer the effects of 'Crew Shaken', 'Wrecked', etc. and additionally the unit would suffer D6 hits.

Soulblaze isn't an effect of the vehicle being hit, but would be an effect of the unit itself being hit. That's not covered by this rule.

 Ghaz wrote:

If a Template weapon hits a building’s Fire Point or an Open-topped vehicle and there is a unit embarked inside that building or vehicle, then in addition to any other effects that unit suffers D6 hits, resolved at the Strength and AP of the weapon. These hits are Randomly Allocated.

That's in addition to any other effects of the building's Fire Point or the open-topped vehicle being hit. These 'effects' are covered under the heading 'Effects Of Damage On Passengers' for vehicles. They would suffer the effects of 'Crew Shaken', 'Wrecked', etc. and additionally the unit would suffer D6 hits.

Soulblaze isn't an effect of the vehicle being hit, but would be an effect of the unit itself being hit. That's not covered by this rule.

Ghaz has the correct parsing of that sentence.

The rule is talking about hitting a building that has a fire point, or any open topped vehicle that has an embarked unit and in addition to any other effects from hitting a building that has a fire point, or any open topped vehicle you apply D6 hits to the embarked unit.

The effects of hitting a building or vehicle are of course the damage tables effects.

This is not referencing the weapons special rules at all.

So unless you have a rule that states Soulblaze takes effect, then it does not. (Hint: you will not find such a rule, it does not exist).

I don't think text will be able to do much and will try and keep this to the most basic of formats and use two scenarios to explain the concept.

Incinerator effect on the Embarked Unit of an exploding -0 fire point Transport:
- Hits at Strength X and AP Y
- Random Allocate any Wounds generated
- Place in a specific position
- Watch them cower in fear

Incinerator effect on the Embarked Unit of an exploding 1+ fire point Transport:
- Hits at Strength X and AP Y
- Random Allocate any Wounds generated
- Place in a specific position
- Watch them cower in fear
+
- 1d6 Hits at "Weapon" Strength and AP
- Random Allocation

As Soul Blaze is not an effect that we are informed to add to the equation by the No Escape Special Rule, it doesn't not get included because of that source. As it was not present prior to the Special Rule being evoked, it is not something which is 'in addition' to that source. Additionally, pun intended, the act of referring to the Weapon's Profile to locate a few numbers is not enough to state that other effects found on the weapon's profile are also being included into the equation.

My initial thought was that Elmir is right here. Then I started thinking of what other effects a weapon might have, e.g. rending, and I'm not so sure anymore. Then I had a look at the rulea on pg 111 and I believe the RAW and RAI is that they are just additional hits, and as has been said, not coming from any weapon.

 Elmir wrote:
I hate to break it to you... But your assement that no escape is part of an open topped vehicle is completely wrong...

no escape is a rule of the template WEAPON... not of an open topped vehicle. Check where it is.

Template weapons have the Ignores Cover, Wall of Death and No Escape special rules. Wounds inflicted by template weapons are allocated following the normal rules. Template weapons cannot fire Snap Shots.

No, that's a fair point. I had misremembered where the rule was located.

It doesn't change the wording of the rule, though.

So... your reasoning again? I would like to see you refute this with actual rules quotes, rather than just falsely claiming that rules are associated with open topped rather than weapons. I put the most relevant wordings for the case that special rules for the weapon do apply to no escape as well in bold.

My reasoning was never to do with where the rule was located, but simply with the fact that a rule has to specifically address embarked models in order to affect them. When you fire at a vehicle, it will ordinarily have no effect on the passengers outside of those things specifically outlined in the vehicle damage rules.

No escape doesn't include permission to resolve the template weapon attack against the passengers. It allows you to resolve an attack using the weapon's S and AP against the passengers, in addition to resolving the weapon against the vehicle.

There is no permission there to apply any other special rule of the weapon to the embarked models.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

If a Template weapon hits a building’s Fire Point or an Open-topped vehicle and there is a unit embarked inside that building or vehicle, then in addition to any other effects that unit suffers D6 hits, resolved at the Strength and AP of the weapon. These hits are Randomly Allocated.

That's in addition to any other effects of the building's Fire Point or the open-topped vehicle being hit. These 'effects' are covered under the heading 'Effects Of Damage On Passengers' for vehicles. They would suffer the effects of 'Crew Shaken', 'Wrecked', etc. and additionally the unit would suffer D6 hits.

Soulblaze isn't an effect of the vehicle being hit, but would be an effect of the unit itself being hit. That's not covered by this rule.

Ghaz has the correct parsing of that sentence.

The rule is talking about hitting a building that has a fire point, or any open topped vehicle that has an embarked unit and in addition to any other effects from hitting a building that has a fire point, or any open topped vehicle you apply D6 hits to the embarked unit.

The effects of hitting a building or vehicle are of course the damage tables effects.

This is not referencing the weapons special rules at all.

So unless you have a rule that states Soulblaze takes effect, then it does not. (Hint: you will not find such a rule, it does not exist).

So, you are imagining a whole bunch of extra lines to the rule that would limit the amount of effects it suffers. This is what it boils down to. My reasoning doesn't have to add any "imaginary lines" t the ruling to make it work. Soulblaze is an effect you can suffer from an incinerator... And black on white it says to apply all effects a passenger can suffer.


Call me crazy, but when I read ANY effect, I apply all effects without the need to add a bunch of extra words to limit it to whatever I think it might be.

At any case, I also send the question to the FAQ email. I don't know it it'll ever get answered officially... They haven't done any faqs for quite some time now it seems... :(

 Elmir wrote:


So, you are imagining a whole bunch of extra lines to the rule that would limit the amount of effects it suffers. This is what it boils down to. My reasoning doesn't have to add any "imaginary lines" t the ruling to make it work. Soulblaze is an effect you can suffer from an incinerator... And black on white it says to apply all effects a passenger can suffer.

You are reading it incorrectly.

The rule is "If a Template weapon hits a building’s Fire Point or an Open-topped vehicle and there is a unit embarked inside that building or vehicle, then in addition to any other effects that unit suffers D6 hits, resolved at the Strength and AP of the weapon. These hits are Randomly Allocated."

no we have to ask ourselves, what effects does a unit suffer when a Template weapon hits a building’s Fire Point or an Open-topped vehicle?

Well we look to the vehicle damage table to figure that one out, and we see that some damage results to vehicles will have an effect on the passengers.

Therefore this is what "in addition to any other effects" means. It does not mean that you apply Soulblaze, because Soulblaze is not an effect that the unit suffers when a Template weapon hits a building’s Fire Point or an Open-topped vehicle. (If you think Soulblaze is an effect that the unit suffers when a Template weapon hits a building’s Fire Point or an Open-topped vehicle then you need to produce rules stating such, but you wont find them, because they do not exist).

It is as simple as that, you are the one imagining a whole bunch of extra lines to the rule

Call me crazy, but when I read ANY effect, I apply all effects without the need to add a bunch of extra words to limit it to whatever I think it might be.

At any case, I also send the question to the FAQ email. I don't know it it'll ever get answered officially... They haven't done any faqs for quite some time now it seems... :(

You are the only one adding extra words.

(If you think Soulblaze is an effect that the unit suffers when a Template weapon hits a building’s Fire Point or an Open-topped vehicle then you need to produce rules stating such, but you wont find them, because they do not exist).

Aha, I think I understand what you are coming from. I'm not saying soulblaze is an effect associated with any random template weapon.

Soulblaze is an effect however that a unit hit by an incinerator suffers... I'm pretty sure I won't be able to find a passage in the main rulebook that soulblaze would be included. Up untill now, no template weapon had soulblaze... that's new since the update of codex: GK. Up untill now, it could have only been screw shaken/stunned. That changed since last week though... there's a template weapon with soulblaze.

So my question boils down to: do you willfully ignore the fact that it can include soulbaze now under "any effect" (but only specifically for the incinerator, not other template weapon would do that)?

I just find it really weird that people seem to have no issue applying the effect through Wall of death, but get all weird if it would also be applied through no escape.

 Elmir wrote:

(If you think Soulblaze is an effect that the unit suffers when a Template weapon hits a building’s Fire Point or an Open-topped vehicle then you need to produce rules stating such, but you wont find them, because they do not exist).

Aha, I think I understand what you are coming from. I'm not saying soulblaze is an effect associated with any random template weapon.

Soulblaze is an effect however that a unit hit by an incinerator suffers...

And the embarked unit is never hit by the incinerator.

Also that is not at all what that sentence is referring to.

Here is the rule again. "If a Template weapon hits a building’s Fire Point or an Open-topped vehicle and there is a unit embarked inside that building or vehicle, then in addition to any other effects that unit suffers D6 hits, resolved at the Strength and AP of the weapon. These hits are Randomly Allocated."

If a template weapon hits a vehicle then you roll for armor pen, and on a pen you have an effect on the embarked unit. In addition to any effect on the embarked unit from the hit on the vehicle... That is what the sentence is saying.

I'm pretty sure I won't be able to find a passage in the main rulebook that soulblaze would be included. Up untill now, no template weapon had soulblaze... that's new since the update of codex: GK. Up untill now, it could have only been screw shaken/stunned. That changed since last week though... there's a template weapon with soulblaze.

So my question boils down to: do you willfully ignore the fact that it can include soulbaze now under "any effect" (but only specifically for the incinerator, not other template weapon would do that)?

I just find it really weird that people seem to have no issue applying the effect through Wall of death, but get all weird if it would also be applied through no escape.

There is nothing to ignore, you are not reading the sentence correctly.

It can not include Soulblaze because In addition to any effect on the embarked unit from the hit on the vehicle... is what the sentence is saying, it is not saying that you apply concussive or Soulblaze etc.

The effect happens through wall of death because the weapon is actually fired at the charging unit. Such is not the case with a weapon that is fired at a building’s Fire Point or an Open-topped vehicle.

 DeathReaper wrote:


It can not include Soulblaze because In addition to any effect on the embarked unit from the hit on the vehicle... is what the sentence is saying, it is not saying that you apply concussive or Soulblaze etc.

The effect happens through wall of death because the weapon is actually fired at the charging unit. Such is not the case with a weapon that is fired at a building’s Fire Point or an Open-topped vehicle.

We can do this endlessly you know, so this will be the last time I repeat this...

In addition to any effect on the embarked unit from the hit on the vehicle... That is what the sentence is saying.

you keep saying that's what it means... but the part in bold is stuff that it doesn't say anywhere in black and white in the rulebook. You say I keep reading it wrong, I say you are the one who has to keep adding words to the rule in order for it to ignore the effect soulblaze.

Also, any claiming that those hits are coming out of nowhere is silly as all hell. They are there because of the incinerator hitting the vehicle/entrance point. You'd need a very healty dose of "suspension of disbelief" to not associate those hits with the weapons

I can understand the hits/wounds coming from the USR themselves, and will need to check the wording for Wall of Death, and why it's the weapon that hits and not the Wall of Death Rule....

All i'm taking from this is an over-Powerful Abyssal Staff on Open-Topped Vehicles

So technically, you use its strength of 8 and ap of 2 with the D6 hits and would resolve it againgst toughness.

Black Talos,
Wall of Death side-steps the issue by using completely different formatting within the rule. It begins by stating if a Template weapon fires... before going on to change the firing sequence that weapon will be using to resolve any attack against the Charging Unit. The portion talking about what Strength and Armor Piercing to resolve these generated hit's with, unusual in that it is being mentioned at all, refer to the weapon directly by stating things like its normal strength within that portion of the Rule. While I would of formatted it differently, like 90% of this book, the choice of words when referring to the Weapon still show that the Weapon is firmly a subject within the equation.

While the formatting within No Escape refers to the weapon in third person.

 Elmir wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:


It can not include Soulblaze because In addition to any effect on the embarked unit from the hit on the vehicle... is what the sentence is saying, it is not saying that you apply concussive or Soulblaze etc.

The effect happens through wall of death because the weapon is actually fired at the charging unit. Such is not the case with a weapon that is fired at a building’s Fire Point or an Open-topped vehicle.

We can do this endlessly you know, so this will be the last time I repeat this...

Sure we can do this endlessly since you are not understanding how the rule works.

deathreaper wrote: In addition to any effect on the embarked unit from the hit on the vehicle... That is what the sentence is saying.

you keep saying that's what it means... but the part in bold is stuff that it doesn't say anywhere in black and white in the rulebook. You say I keep reading it wrong, I say you are the one who has to keep adding words to the rule in order for it to ignore the effect soulblaze.

It doesn't say it in black and white? it actually says it though sentence structure.

If you parse the sentence correctly you will see that "in addition to any other effects" is referring to the part about the template weapon hitting a building or vehicle. What happens when a template weapon hits a vehicle? you roll for armor pen and then on the damage chart if you meet or beat the AV of said vehicle. and some of those damage table results have effects on passengers. this is what the rule is referring to. Your argument ignores the sentence structure.

Also, any claiming that those hits are coming out of nowhere is silly as all hell. They are there because of the incinerator hitting the vehicle/entrance point.

I never said the hits were coming out of nowhere... They are coming from the No Escape rule...

You'd need a very healty[sic] dose of "suspension of disbelief" to not associate those hits with the weapons

With an abstract rules system it is best to not try to inject modern day real world physics into it, it never ends well.

Real World Common Sense/Real World Logic/How it works in the real world has no bearing on the 40k Ruleset.

Remember: The rules were not written to be "Modern day real world" logical.

The rules are an abstract system used to simulate a battle in the year 40,000.

What would happen in the modern day real world has nothing to do with the RAW, or the simulation of a battle fought 38,000 years from now. (and maybe not even on a planet with the same physical makeup as our earth, and probably different physics as well).

As such they need to have some compromises to make the game playable.

Thanks Jinx! Of course i will still have to look at the wording myself to be fully convinced.

Please do, if you just took my word for it I would be very disappointed.
Body-less voices rate low on the best places for information, even my own.