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I'm very new to Eldar if not new to the game and I've been looking into HQ choices primarily. I bought and painted a normal farseer and obviously thinking about putting one on a bike.

I should point out that I am thoroughly opposed to cheese that involves rerollables so I am avoiding the SeerStar altogether. I'd like to do competitive minus that and Waveserpent Spam in so much as that is possible, though I will definitely have one or two.

I'll throw a few out and if anyone can then they can tell me whether or not I am way off the mark:

Farseer on foot:

In a WS with Wraithguard with either Wraithcannons or D-Scythes to provide the rerollable buffs if they can. Same goes again with firedragons.

Can't really think of anything else! But since I bought and painted one on foot I'd like to use it.

Farseer on bike:

Given to a troop of 3 jetbikes for ablative saves and wounds so it can keep up with any mobile threat in the army to provide buffs. Easiest one being of course a wraithknight.

Now I bought two squads of rangers because I loved the models, but honestly is there any way they aren't useless? I mean anyway at all!

Farseer uses on foot:

Staying behind in Reapers, War Walkers, Guardians for buffing.

Going with an actual bodyguard such as Striking Scorpions to prevent him getting killed and roll for Maledictions und Witchfires (especially psychic shriek).

Rangers aren't useless. Hide them in a forest or in ruins and shoot at artillery, MC's etc.

I dunno about those rangers like shooting at MC's? Assuming they have a farseer and rerolls they'll get 8 hits from 10 rangers? Wounding on a 4+ is pretty good. So you'll get 4 wounds.

But on a dreadknight, the new favourites then if you are lucky he will roll a 1 or you will roll a 6.

Riptide is the same.

Tyranid MC's and Wraithknights are about the only bonus but I mean to hopefully get 1 wound through armour and you are dropping 120 points + 100 points for the rerolls. For 220p I can only imagine you can do better.

Any opinions on Vypers I've ended up with one.

So far I have a Farseer, 10 rangers, 6 SScorpions, 3 jetbikes and 1 vyper.

farseers are good in seer councils and footdar lists, you can have one sit back on a gunline but it definitely isnt ideal.

The seer council has been a thing for like 15 years, it isnt the "new cheese" or something you should feel bad for fielding.. nothing is.. everyone has access to the same units its not your fault your opponent cannot build as good a list as you, that is a huge part of the game.

With the Seer Council I know especially these days that there is a GK army in my area that runs with 20+ WC so good chance I'd never get the powers off I'd probably rather just run without them for now. (Also a Wyvern which isn't around my area will give them a headache.)

If not a Farseer Footdar then how would you roll with HQ's? Eldrad or Phonix Lord? To prevent giving away Warlord Victory points I've always liked having a tough HQ.

Very seldom do you want a Farseer on foot. In fact, I can't think of a reason you would. 15 points for another point of toughness, +3 armor save, 12" range for buffs, and splitting off to contest objectives across the board at the bottom of the last turn is just stupidly under priced. IMO Eldrad is the only farseer that should ever be on foot, and I'd give him a bike if it was an option. The only conceivable reason to run a farseer on foot is to go in a WS, but every turn after he's out you'll wish he was on a bike. If he stays in the WS....why'd you bring a farseer?

Seerstar is certainly not new (been running one since 3rd when it became an option), and 20 WC armies aren't going to hurt it that much (you're throwing a LOT of blessings for them to try and negate, and you can always take stones). Doesn't really matter though, cause we have the best codex in the game in terms of viably competitive armies that can be fielded.

Beast star is really good. Lots of varients on how to run it (DE/E, E/DE, double beast star, Eldrad, no Eldrad, etc.) but the basic premise is the same.

Guardian blob star is a fun as well, and tends to be pretty anti-meta.

WS spam is powerful, just terminally boring to play.

WG-star is maybe not top tier, but can be pretty tough.

One thing all those lists (except WSpam) have in common is the Farseer. It's possibly the most versatile HQ in the game. I have a hard time justifying running any other HQ in our book. Even Spirit Seers, who are great in their own right. Autarchs are good for WS spam, simply because they can load in a WS cheaply and modify reserves, if that is something you need. Other than that, competitive Eldar armies almost always have at least one Farseer at the helm.

*edit* Rangers- one minimum squad to hide in back to hold objectives isn't the worst thing you can take, but 3 bikes hidden in reserve probably do it better.

Mantle seer FTW

 Dash2021 wrote:
Very seldom do you want a Farseer on foot. In fact, I can't think of a reason you would. 15 points for another point of toughness, +3 armor save, 12" range for buffs, and splitting off to contest objectives across the board at the bottom of the last turn is just stupidly under priced. IMO Eldrad is the only farseer that should ever be on foot, and I'd give him a bike if it was an option. The only conceivable reason to run a farseer on foot is to go in a WS, but every turn after he's out you'll wish he was on a bike. If he stays in the WS....why'd you bring a farseer?

Seerstar is certainly not new (been running one since 3rd when it became an option), and 20 WC armies aren't going to hurt it that much (you're throwing a LOT of blessings for them to try and negate, and you can always take stones). Doesn't really matter though, cause we have the best codex in the game in terms of viably competitive armies that can be fielded.

Beast star is really good. Lots of varients on how to run it (DE/E, E/DE, double beast star, Eldrad, no Eldrad, etc.) but the basic premise is the same.

Guardian blob star is a fun as well, and tends to be pretty anti-meta.

WS spam is powerful, just terminally boring to play.

WG-star is maybe not top tier, but can be pretty tough.

One thing all those lists (except WSpam) have in common is the Farseer. It's possibly the most versatile HQ in the game. I have a hard time justifying running any other HQ in our book. Even Spirit Seers, who are great in their own right. Autarchs are good for WS spam, simply because they can load in a WS cheaply and modify reserves, if that is something you need. Other than that, competitive Eldar armies almost always have at least one Farseer at the helm.

*edit* Rangers- one minimum squad to hide in back to hold objectives isn't the worst thing you can take, but 3 bikes hidden in reserve probably do it better.

Wonderful explanation thank you!!

Well, in my Serpent spam list I use one or two Jetseers.
They are there to buff the shooting of Warwalkers and Fire Dragons, or take on the last Khorne Berzerker via psychic shriek.

I have no use for a Farseer on foot. Too slow and situational.

Do you mainly stick to Codex Powers? The use of Psychic Shriek suggests you don't?

I'm set then, I'm giving it a vyper, fancy farseer with its own driver, since I've got one spare and I dont' really view them as being points efficient.

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
Do you mainly stick to Codex Powers? The use of Psychic Shriek suggests you don't?

I'm set then, I'm giving it a vyper, fancy farseer with its own driver, since I've got one spare and I dont' really view them as being points efficient.

Well, in the 6th ed I mainly used primary powers: psychic shriek, prescience, and guide.
Its just a good solution for a shooty army.

Got the ball rolling so I'll keep spitballing even if I am going off topic. Hope I can get the same level of super helpful replies that I have received so far. It is appreciated.

I deal with the odd Imperial Knight, sometimes two. AV13 spam and double or triple dreadknights! These things are killer at the minute with those 6 shots at s7, and the double CCB with 3xAB aren't easy to deal with either.

I've got my first HQ sorted, I've got two troop choices and I can't buy a Wraithknight just yet at £70 a pop. I'm looking at War Walkers and thinking "Holy God Emporer!" for about the price of a monolith I can get 3 AV10 gun boats with 6 AP2 lance weapons. They are fragile but they have battlefocus.

->Good chance for First Blood.
->Can run hopefully back out of sight
-> Good for all armour, and some MC hunting
-> Twin link them and it could even double up as anti air, not reliable but gives you a shot

-Very very fragile. With AV10 and open topped almost anything is going to mash them, a shunting DK will drop it without blinking, so there is an easy first blood for your opponent.
-36" range means you can't just sit at the back firing of lances.

What do people think?

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
Got the ball rolling so I'll keep spitballing even if I am going off topic. Hope I can get the same level of super helpful replies that I have received so far. It is appreciated.

I deal with the odd Imperial Knight, sometimes two. AV13 spam and double or triple dreadknights! These things are killer at the minute with those 6 shots at s7, and the double CCB with 3xAB aren't easy to deal with either.

I've got my first HQ sorted, I've got two troop choices and I can't buy a Wraithknight just yet at £70 a pop. I'm looking at War Walkers and thinking "Holy God Emporer!" for about the price of a monolith I can get 3 AV10 gun boats with 6 AP2 lance weapons. They are fragile but they have battlefocus.

->Good chance for First Blood.
->Can run hopefully back out of sight
-> Good for all armour, and some MC hunting
-> Twin link them and it could even double up as anti air, not reliable but gives you a shot

-Very very fragile. With AV10 and open topped almost anything is going to mash them, a shunting DK will drop it without blinking, so there is an easy first blood for your opponent.
-36" range means you can't just sit at the back firing of lances.

What do people think?

You average about 2 hull points on a av 12+. Good, but not the most competitive option considering anything that shoots at them can cripple the squad. If your going to run war walkers, all scatter lasers. Guided.

Mantleseer is fantastic. 160 points with jetbike, mantle and singing spear. Yeah, it's rerollable 2+ coversave. But it's not all that obnoxious.

Farseer on foot, bunkered with a blob of guardians, or with a squad of Support Platforms is good too. Give him a whole bunch of wounds, of give him T7 from the artillery. Support platforms are cheap, and can put out the hurt too.

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
Got the ball rolling so I'll keep spitballing even if I am going off topic. Hope I can get the same level of super helpful replies that I have received so far. It is appreciated.

I deal with the odd Imperial Knight, sometimes two. AV13 spam and double or triple dreadknights! These things are killer at the minute with those 6 shots at s7, and the double CCB with 3xAB aren't easy to deal with either.

I've got my first HQ sorted, I've got two troop choices and I can't buy a Wraithknight just yet at £70 a pop. I'm looking at War Walkers and thinking "Holy God Emporer!" for about the price of a monolith I can get 3 AV10 gun boats with 6 AP2 lance weapons. They are fragile but they have battlefocus.

->Good chance for First Blood.
->Can run hopefully back out of sight
-> Good for all armour, and some MC hunting
-> Twin link them and it could even double up as anti air, not reliable but gives you a shot

-Very very fragile. With AV10 and open topped almost anything is going to mash them, a shunting DK will drop it without blinking, so there is an easy first blood for your opponent.
-36" range means you can't just sit at the back firing of lances.

What do people think?

Love my WW's. AV 10 and a 5++ doesn't sound like much, but Battle focus is amazing. Pop around a wall, shoot, battle focus back. Makes them fairly resilient. But as ninjafiredragon said, SL's or SL's and Starcannons. I know you mentioned WK being out of the question, but that'll be where a lot of your tank busting comes from. Walkers are light tank, infantry killers. People tend to protect tanks, but for some reason ignore the walkers when they're wiping a squad a turn.

That being said, I'm looking to replace them with Hornets....cause wow. 6 pulse lasers for nearly the same price as WW's. Amazing.

Just to clarify WK's just out of the question for the minute until I get the funds (also really not looking forward to attempting to paint them, I'm not that good and its damn big.

I see what you are saying I mean a pair of SL's and the second shot being twin linked after the first one hits is pretty damn good. 8 S6 shots for 70 points is amazing. They can hunt light armour, MC's or any kind of infantry just through weight of fire.

Yeah sold on them thank you!

After all of this, why doesn't GW bring out the Jetseer model? Is CHS stopping one of their soon-to-be best selling HQ models?

 Skinnereal wrote:
After all of this, why doesn't GW bring out the Jetseer model? Is CHS stopping one of their soon-to-be best selling HQ models?

Hopefully because they're going to release that with updated jetbike models, to accompany the Saim-Hamm supplement? *wishful thinking*

In the meanwhile, the new Plastic Farseer is an easy conversion for a bike. His robes split in such a way, that they're easy to model convincingly.

Let's be fair though, there is absolutely nothing competitive that uses a Farseer on foot.

Like there are no scorpions, banshees, war walkers and stuff like that in a competitive list, simply because point for point they suck balls compared to tactical marines.

Mantleseer is usable, but meet even one poison dealer or cover save ignore and bye bye 170 points.

Personally I'm not a fan, and I don't think even a jetseer can be competitive outside of a death star.

War walkers not competitive...I mean they seem like you'd get more utility out of them than say a Tac Squad in a Rhino.

Especially since troops lost most of their utility in 7th. Sure they can Ob-Denied but other than that? A tac squad brings bolters and 1 reg 1 heavy weapon compared to 6 bright lance shots or 24 S6 shots.

Is it the fragility that makes them not competitive or?

I may have gone overboard when comparing with a tac squad

But for the price of 3 WW you get 2 SU w/ pod and melta.

I think the lack of resilience is the main problem.

A WS for example, which is a nice filler that costs the same price with a 5-man DA squad:

According to Mathhammer, if the WS+5DA shoot at the WW, you have on average 4,58 (or two WW) dead per turn, with a 90% probability of one just exploding, which could bring the total up to 3 dead WW.

On the other hand, the Scatter Laser WW against a 5+ cover save WS will on average deal 1,778 hull points.
The Bright Lance will deal 1.333 hull points and 29.6% chance of exploding.

If the WS goes first, he nukes the WW.
If the WW go first, they almost always lose.

Now, the WS isn't the perfect unit (otherwise it would not need other units), but it also has quite a few nice features, like transport, mobility, increased resilience on demand.

The only way it's really worse than a WW is when being assaulted.

The dual tac squad is a bit worse though, but it has a drop pod and stuff.

morgoth wrote:
I may have gone overboard when comparing with a tac squad

But for the price of 3 WW you get 2 SU w/ pod and melta.

I think the lack of resilience is the main problem.

A WS for example, which is a nice filler that costs the same price with a 5-man DA squad:

According to Mathhammer, if the WS+5DA shoot at the WW, you have on average 4,58 (or two WW) dead per turn, with a 90% probability of one just exploding, which could bring the total up to 3 dead WW.

On the other hand, the Scatter Laser WW against a 5+ cover save WS will on average deal 1,778 hull points.
The Bright Lance will deal 1.333 hull points and 29.6% chance of exploding.

If the WS goes first, he nukes the WW.
If the WW go first, they almost always lose.

Now, the WS isn't the perfect unit (otherwise it would not need other units), but it also has quite a few nice features, like transport, mobility, increased resilience on demand.

The only way it's really worse than a WW is when being assaulted.

The dual tac squad is a bit worse though, but it has a drop pod and stuff.

Looking at it in a vacuum, point for point the WS is better than the WW's. Then again point for point the WS is better than the vast majority of units in the game. I'd agree WW's aren't the most competitive choice, but saying they're a bad choice is just wrong.

WW's see massive output gains from a farseer (original topic, why it's relevant). But Battle focus on WW's is huge, assuming you are playing with any LOS blocking terrain at all. It's 3rd ed. pop up shots all over again. Clever use of terrain w/ battle focus boosts their survivablilty substantially. I rarely have more than one walker visible at a time, and then only because of a bad run move. You're not going to see them at top tables in major GT's, but that's a huge difference from them being bad. A new player isn't going to have any complaints with WW's, especially being as you can buy them second hand for peanuts. Only in the Eldar codex would WW's not be considered an amazing unit.

As far as HQ slots go, Farseers are the single most versatile generic in the game. The only list where they don't work is Mechdar, and then only because everything's already twin linked and the rest of the buffs just don't go as far. Twin linking WW's, spiders, WK's, FP's, Artillery, Dark Reapers, etc. greatly increases the output and reliability of those squads. They can also make nearly any squad you want into a "star". Crappy guardians become unmovable, resilient blobs. Shrouded on a JetSeer is just silly: keep a couple of WS's close and they now get a 2+ cover. The best thing they give you is the ability to tailor your army w/out changing your list. 40k is a lot of paper-rock-scissors, but the psychic powers can really take the edge off of some of the worst match ups. Spirit Seers are alright, manditory if you take any WG, but point for point the Farseer's better.

Point for point the WS is not better than the vast majority of units in the game. If it were, competitive lists would be maxed out on it and not using it as a filler / weakness compensation unit.

WW's are much much much much weaker than WS, and WS are competitive.

Now, you can start calling them a bad choice at whatever threshold of competitiveness, I believe that anything more than 25% weaker than a competitive unit is a bad choice because it puts you in a situation where you need to roll 5+ every dice to make up for the unit's inherent weakness.

Farseers cost a ton of points and have better things to do than boosting worthless units that can still be wiped out even after being guided.

The comment on the Eldar codex is pure bs, I'm tired of you people ignoring all the horrible choices in the codex and pretending the codex is awesome. How about you open your eyes and read all the profiles that are not seerstar, wk, fire dragon, ws ? Maybe then you'll realize that outside of the competitive stuff, most of the Eldar codex can't handle troops from other codexes point for point. Go ahead, tell me banshees, scorpions, guardians, wraithlord, harlequins, falcons, prisms etc. are worth their point cost when compared to other codexes. And while you're at it, please spend your sweet time explaining why the Eldar named characters aren't all at least 30% overcosted.


As far as HQ slots go, Coteaz, Creed, bargelords and many more are simply better point for point outside of a deathstar.

And your dream of running around the table guiding random sub-150 point units with your 150 point mantleseer ... that's just a nice story. It's fun, it's cool, it may even have its place against not optimized or beginner lists, but in reality, it's just so many points down the drain you just can't win a real game anymore.


I think that the 40K game starts with bringing the highest % efficiency list for that point level, and whoever has less efficiency is then going to fight an uphill battle.

When you start running around with an Avatar, guardians, war walkers, scorpions, banshees, phoenix lords and other low efficiency stuff, you start the battle at 70% efficiency tops, and you're going to have to beat an opponent that may be in the 90% semi-competitive range.

In other words, you have to hope that your opponent is at least 30% worse than you if you want to be at the same level and have a 50% chance to win - if you try your best.

I prefer to play people who have the same skill level or better, so I learn more and I have more fun.


Until then, you keep the awesome Eldar codex that's so awesome every single one of its units is competitive, I'll keep to my lists that make sense and my advice that helps people bring their A game.



And no, 40K is not rock paper scissors, it's about bringing armies that can handle any threat to fight other armies, and that begins with efficiency, i.e. not choosing units that just can't do gak most of the time.

I was thinking about this. And I'm not sure you are right. In this edition with the minor nerfs to smash and making vehicles harder as a minor buff Landraiders became better and Imperial Knights exist, having a buffed unit of 6 Bright Lances or 16-20 shots buffed or not buffed on SL seems like a pretty good choice.

Of course nothing is super awesome by itself, its about list cohesion. I know someone running Space Wolves. Now compared to centurion star etc. it isn't super competitive but it isn't terrible either.

I do play in a competitive meta but not everything has to be uber cheese to win. And dude...sounding a little angry!

There's a large margin between cheese and 50% efficiency

WW are like 50% efficiency, seerstar or screamerstar is cheese.

My lists are competitive without being cheese though but hey... it's a matter of taste and environment.

I'll ignore the trollbait above and just get to my 0.02€:
I'd always invest the few pts for the bike. Even if you don't add a few Guardians on bikes for ablative wounds you will be able to use that nice assault phase movement. With the relatively small jetbike it is often possible to break LOS and keep that Farseer safe. Try that with a footslogging one...

 Murenius wrote:
I'll ignore the trollbait above and just get to my 0.02€:
I'd always invest the few pts for the bike. Even if you don't add a few Guardians on bikes for ablative wounds you will be able to use that nice assault phase movement. With the relatively small jetbike it is often possible to break LOS and keep that Farseer safe. Try that with a footslogging one...

How do you handle LOS and additional guardians ?

Doesn't that go up to 200+ points ?

Are you running a mantleseer without mantle ?

morgoth wrote:

How do you handle LOS and additional guardians ?

Doesn't that go up to 200+ points ?

Are you running a mantleseer without mantle ?

In many games I take an Imperial Bunker and place it between two pieces of terrain. That either prevents the enemy units from passing or creates chokepoints. If you align at least one side of the bunker to a piece of terrain you can hide a Farseer even with 3 Guardians behind it, and only elevated or very big units can even see them. Also I usually place that bunker on the very front so in many cases it is enough to hop over it in the movement phase, use it in psi and shooting phase and then hop back in the assault phase. And yes, in those cases I used a mantleseer without mantle. If I take the mantle I play it more aggressively and do not play hide and seek.

Army terrain is one pretty fethed up thing.

To me it's up there with the allied formation and all that post-fifth bs, I'm having a very hard time accepting it.

Aren't bunkers a bit expensive too ? are you getting any more value out of that bunker ?

The bunker is only 50 points and it gives a foot unit a AV14 case, which is very powerful for those points. In the last time I use some Dark Reapers in it, along with an Ammo Dump for 15 points which lets them reroll all 1s. This gives me a Jink ignoring, long range versatile AV14 unit that misses only on 2s (not quite, but you get the point).

And with the additional use for hiding units behind it I think it's rather cheap.