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Yeah, I just read the Deny the Witch rules, and theres nothing that could make an argument for Aegis and Psychic Powers that don't target a unit. The exact wording is (with my rulebook open right now)

To make a Deny the Witch test, first select one of your units that was a target of the enemies psycic power....

Later, it then says:

If none of your units were the target of the enemy's psychic power you can still attempt to Deny the Witch. To do so, follow the same process, but apply no modifiers to youir dice rolls ...

It's pretty cut and dry. Your models are definitely not the target of any blessings. Conjurations don't have targets, so that step would have been skipped altogether. Which you do have permission to do, since the psychic phase sequence chart says:

2: Declare Target: If the power requires a target, choose it at this point.

I'd like to thank you all for your posts and views in this discussion, I have now included a poll so I would like to ask you all to vote your opinion so we can all see which view is more dominant

Your poll misses an option: Neither, since technically you're not allowed to DtW against Blessings because they fethed up the rules on it.
Both 'Yes' and 'No' would be breaking rules and polls aren't of much use for this unless you label it 'HIWPI'.

So both answers are equally valid.

blaktoof wrote:

To make a Deny the Witch test, first select one of your units that was a target of the enemy’s psychic power. You will then need to expend a...

so the first step is to pick a unit that was a target of the enemy psychic power.
If there was no target you cannot pick a unit.
moving on...

No, not moving on!
If you are unable to do the first step, you can't just ignore it and continue with the second.

That would be awesome: "Ooh, I am not allowed to roll to Hit? Then I will just continue to roll to Wound."

If none of your units were the target of the enemy’s psychic power (the power in question might have been a blessing, a conjuration, or some other power that only affects the Psyker’s own troops) you can still attempt to Deny the Witch. To do so, follow the same process, but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls – you will require rolls of 6 to nullify Warp Charge points.

So tell me, are you following the same process when you skip things?
To quote something I once read on this thread: "this is a case of some people not following the RAW."

You cannot pick a unit to deny with if none of your units were targetted.

True.

however you the opponent can attempt to deny as per the above rule with no modifiers, because you the opponent have no special rules that let you modify stuff.

False, you wouldn't be following the same process.

Let's try this again:
The rules tell you to SELECT a unit that was targeted.
Are you selecting a unit?
No? Then you're breaking the rules.

The rules tell us when no unit is targeted the player rolls DtW. How is that breaking the rules?

It's only messed up if "no unit" (null) is not a valid choice when required to select a unit where no selection is possible.

Personally having had a background in programming, null has always been a valid option
And it follows the rules far better than "can't select a legal unit, let's pick whatever unit we want!"

Kangodo wrote:
If you are unable to do the first step, you can't just ignore it and continue with the second.

You can if the rules say to do so.

Again, you're told that the targeted unit roll DtW, and that if there is no targeted unit, the player rolls DtW.

This is a non-issue. You don't select a targeted unit if there was no unit targeted. You just make the roll.

The rules tell you to SELECT a unit that was targeted.

... and then go on to tell you what happens if no unit was targeted.

Yes, it says you follow the "same process" without modifiers.
So unless my English is really bad and 'no modifiers' actually means "you don't have to select a unit" you'd be wrong.

If none of your units were the target of the enemy’s psychic power (the power in question might have been a blessing, a conjuration, or some other power that only affects the Psyker’s own troops) you can still attempt to Deny the Witch. To do so, follow the same process, but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls – you will require rolls of 6 to nullify Warp Charge points.

At Step: Pick a target, the above happens

You pick "none of your units"
Done, i've picked the target (none of your units)

Now next step:
2) Expend a number of WC-points.
3) Roll an equal amount of D6's
4) Apply the following modifiers. (Oh wait, it says none are allowed, delete this step)
5) Compare result.
6) Sum it all up and see if your DtW is successful.

Simple enough?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way,

"you will require rolls of 6 to nullify Warp Charge points" is a Rule, and you cannot break that rule.

So when rolling to DtW against "(the power in question might have been a blessing, a conjuration, or some other power that only affects the Psyker’s own troops)" you can only ever roll 6s and nothing else (no 1s that can re-roll to 6)

That's the rule.

Kangodo wrote:
Yes, it says you follow the "same process" without modifiers.

It also says that instead of the unit rolling the DtW, the player does so. You keep ignoring that part.

A unit is only required if a unit was targeted.

I've found the people who are arguing that the Aegis works on Blessings are either 1) misreading the rules or 2) looking for an Easter Egg in their new GK codex because they feel slighted by the update.

It's pretty clear that the intention was to have a unit gain the benefit of the Aegis only when it's targeted. The RAW supports this (which has already been discussed ad nauseum).

Additionally, I feel I have to point out that any other interpretation (i.e. that the Aegis does allow re-rolls of 1s on Blessings) opens up the ridiculously broken door of any army containing Kharn getting to deny anything cast from the opposing army on a 2+, and flies in the face of the logic behind the Talisman of Arthas Moloch FAQ ("... in addition, the bearer and all units within 12" add +2 to Deny the Witch rolls.")

DoW

 DogOfWar wrote:
I've found the people who are arguing that the Aegis works on Blessings are either 1) misreading the rules or 2) looking for an Easter Egg in their new GK codex because they feel slighted by the update.

It's pretty clear that the intention was to have a unit gain the benefit of the Aegis only when it's targeted. The RAW supports this (which has already been discussed ad nauseum).

Additionally, I feel I have to point out that any other interpretation (i.e. that the Aegis does allow re-rolls of 1s on Blessings) opens up the ridiculously broken door of any army containing Kharn getting to deny anything cast from the opposing army on a 2+, and flies in the face of the logic behind the Talisman of Arthas Moloch FAQ ("... in addition, the bearer and all units within 12" add +2 to Deny the Witch rolls.")

DoW

While I am of the opinion that you shouldn't get the reroll.

Your argument is flawed in that both instances you listed are Modifiers (not rerolls) so would only come into affect when a unit is targeted.

sm3g wrote:
While I am of the opinion that you shouldn't get the reroll.

Your argument is flawed in that both instances you listed are Modifiers (not rerolls) so would only come into affect when a unit is targeted.

From the GK FAQ (a 6th edition Codex updated for 7th) this is rule for the Reinforced Aegis:

'Reinforced Aegis: This unit can re-roll any failed Deny the Witch roll.'

Is it your view that any GK army that took a single Dreadnought (for ~100 points), and hid it in the back corner, could re-roll every DtW test the entire game for any Blessing, Malediction, or Witchfire targeted at any unit on the table from any source?

That's right up there with the old "Wraithknights can't shoot because they don't have eyes from which to draw LoS." Ridiculous and clearly not the intended effect by any stretch of the imagination.

You have to have a degree of common sense when it comes to rules discussions. At times the RAW in this game becomes nonsensical, at which point a rigid, fundamentalist adherence to it makes you look remarkably silly.

DoW

 DogOfWar wrote:

sm3g wrote:
While I am of the opinion that you shouldn't get the reroll.

Your argument is flawed in that both instances you listed are Modifiers (not rerolls) so would only come into affect when a unit is targeted.

From the GK FAQ (a 6th edition Codex updated for 7th) this is rule for the Reinforced Aegis:

'Reinforced Aegis: This unit can re-roll any failed Deny the Witch roll.'

Is it your view that any GK army that took a single Dreadnought (for ~100 points), and hid it in the back corner, could re-roll every DtW test the entire game for any Blessing, Malediction, or Witchfire targeted at any unit on the table from any source?

That's right up there with the old "Wraithknights can't shoot because they don't have eyes from which to draw LoS." Ridiculous and clearly not the intended effect by any stretch of the imagination.

You have to have a degree of common sense when it comes to rules discussions. At times the RAW in this game becomes nonsensical, at which point a rigid, fundamentalist adherence to it makes you look remarkably silly.

DoW

Since when does player = unit? (also I said SHOULDNT get the re-roll and reading your post makes it sound like you think i said SHOULD).
Anyway the point of my post was to point out that the examples given were both modifiers not re-rolls so didn't really apply here at all.

sm3g wrote:

Since when does player = unit? (also I said SHOULDNT get the re-roll and reading your post makes it sound like you think i said SHOULD).
Anyway the point of my post was to point out that the examples given were both modifiers not re-rolls so didn't really apply here at all.

There is RAW, RAI, and HIWPI

You indicated that HYWPI the re-roll wouldn't apply. You seem to indicate that the RAW supported the pro re-roll camp. My intention was to show that the RAI was clearly against allowing a re-roll for any (to include blessings) DtW.

If you're arguing the RAW, then I think it's a pointless argument at this point (akin to starting to give dictionary definitions and parsing sentence structure). If you're discussing HYWPI, fair enough, but I believe the RAI is clear.

In the end, we agree, but clearly for very different reasons.

DoW

My two cents are as follows. If there really is this magical rule that allows "null" choices when selecting a unit, why then am I not allowed to simply fire any and all blast weapons at some empty location on the ground ("null target") and hope for some lucky scatter dice?

Or perhaps when a special rule requires me to select a target model at random and remove it from play, I could simply select none of them and consider the requirement satisfied?

The ruleset as currently written does not explicitly allow for these types of actions, and for good reason. Similarly, there is thus far no permission in the BRB to simply not select a unit to make the deny the witch roll. The BRB is broken, and does not provide a coherent way to deny the witch for blessings. Any other interpretation is HIWPI.

So, how I would play it is as follows: the re-roll should be allowed if the unit with the aegis is selected to deny the witch against an enemy blessing, both because it does not state that it is only usable against abilities targeting the unit (unlike several other notable anti-psyker abilities), and because re-rolls are considered separately from modifiers by the BRB.

For what it's worth, this is the understanding that both my local gaming group and the local gamestore has come to, with the expectation that at any given moment when GW stops being lazy and gives us an FAQ or errata to explain, the rule may change.

 Fachxphyre wrote:
Similarly, there is thus far no permission in the BRB to simply not select a unit to make the deny the witch roll.

...because if no unit was targeted, no unit makes the roll. The player makes the roll instead.



There are plenty of examples of broken rules in the 7th ed rulebook. This isn't one of them.

(I don't mean to sound like I'm being an ass or anything, putting this here because I know it can "sound" that way through the internet)

 Fachxphyre wrote:
My two cents are as follows. If there really is this magical rule that allows "null" choices when selecting a unit, why then am I not allowed to simply fire any and all blast weapons at some empty location on the ground ("null target") and hope for some lucky scatter dice?

For a start, you'd need permission to do so in the Shooting Phase, or permission outside of the Psychic Phase section, to target "no unit".

As for Psychic; Page 26 of the Physical Rulebook (the 3rd paragraph of DtW) states

To make a Deny the Witch test, first select one of your units that was a target of the enemy's psychic power

Okay, so you're casting a Blessing/other power that doesn't target my units.
I choose my unit that you targeted.
I can't choose a unit. So, in this case, "can't" would trump "must", right?
If that is correct (given it is a permissive rule set), then I have permission to choose "none" or "null" or whatever you wish to call it. There is my "magical rule" that allows "null" choices.
Next step;

You will then need to expend Warp Charge points ...

Okay, I'll do that (I am aware of the rest of the rule, but that part isn't relevant in my opinion)

I'm still in the process of building/redesigning my GK army, and re-reading the rule it appears quite clear to me (from the name to the wording)... The aegis is a shield, it protects. I simply can not shield myself from something that an enemy psyker aims at herself, imo.

(I might try and oppose to his manifesting of ghe power, but that is definetely not "shielding myself")

 Kerrathyr wrote:
I'm still in the process of building/redesigning my GK army, and re-reading the rule it appears quite clear to me (from the name to the wording)... The aegis is a shield, it protects. I simply can not shield myself from something that an enemy psyker aims at herself, imo.

(I might try and oppose to his manifesting of ghe power, but that is definetely not "shielding myself")

"Quick brother, he wishes to set fire to his Centurions! Shield yourself with the power of the Aegis, that shall surely protect us!"

I'd like to point out that it is the player rolling the dice every time, not the models. Little plastic men (or metal ladies) don't actually roll the dice. So whether or not the player gets a bonus to their dice rolling is based on which units the player is rolling those dice for, and an attempt to Deny the Witch is an active attempt by the player's army to stop a psychic power from being successful. An army wide able of Grey Knights is The Aegis, an ability to re-roll 1's when Denying the Witch. As a GK player, with a GK army, you would always be able to re-roll 1's when Denying due to The Aegis, yet you would only be able to use unit specific modifiers if a specific unit was targeted. This does not break the game, although following the Rules as Written for DtW does break the game (being force to select the targeted unit to Deny when there is no targeted unit does break the rules as written).

SJ

Yes, however in the case of no unit being targetted, you are not rolling on behalf of your models any longer.

Your interpretation falls at essentially the first hurdle, as no unit is rolling DtW as required by the Aegis rule. And the case of no unit being targetted cannot break the rules, givfen they explicitly tell you how to handle this situation.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I'd like to point out that it is the play rolling the dice every time, not the models. Little plastic men (or metal ladies) don't actually roll the dice. So whether or not the player gets a bonus to their dice rolling is based on which units the player is rolling those dice for, and an attempt to Deny the Witch is an active attempt by the player's army to stop a psychic power from being successful. An army wide able of Grey Knights is The Aegis, an ability to re-roll 1's when Denying the Witch. As a GK player, with a GK army, you would always be able to re-roll 1's when Denying due to The Aegis, yet you would only be able to use unit specific modifiers if a specific unit was targeted. This does not break the game, although following the Rules as Written for DtW does break the game (being force to select the targeted unit to Deny when there is no targeted unit does break the rules as written).

SJ

You are not rolling on behalf of any units when you DtW for a blessing. You are given no permission to select a unit that wasn't targeted, there for you have no permission to roll using the Aegis. Yes the player is always making the rolls, but no where does it say that every roll has to represent or correlate to a specific unit.

Hmmm... feels... like... flow... diagram

Is the psychic power targeting a unit?

Yes - You can deny the witch! you can add modifiers from the targeted unit!

No - You can deny the witch! You can not add any modifiers to the dice roll or bonuses.

I'm not sure it even has anything to do with who is rolling.... the restrictions don't mention you can't used the units modifiers, just no-modifyers-to-your-roll.

If none of your units were the target of the enemy’s psychic power (the power in
question might have been a blessing, a conjuration, or some other power that only
affects the Psyker’s own troops)
you can still attempt to Deny the Witch. To do so,
follow the same process, but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls –

Your dice rolls don't get modifiers, if non of your units were the target of the enemy's psychic power.



I understand its impossible in the rules to select a target when there is no options for a target, but that's not really the issue, its a very minor glitch in the rule set, based on surrounding rules we can see what they mean, lets not derail over models having no eyes or other such things. If we go on to mark HIWPI it gives credit to either side, as the poll is not debating the legality of getting to the point, just the actual roll, I don't think it needs to be labelled HIWPI.

Well, the rules are very clear about not applying bonuses or modifiers, but the issue comes in with things that don't specifically fall into that category. You could argue back and forth about whether The Aegis is a modifier because it grants re-rolls or not. But what about abilities that have nothing to do with the roll. The CSM, for example have an ability called "Witch Eater" which inflicts a wound on a psyker if 'that unit' successfully DtW's against their power?

If you get to "pick a unit, any unit" against your opponents powers, then my Eldar fortune could bit me in the ass. But if you don't get to use a unit if none of your guys are targeted. Then I can blessing all day long...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To me, the more interesting question, is can a SM with a psychic hood Deny a Blessing with full modifiers and bonuses? Since it allows him to DtW as if he were in the target unit even if he is not. Since the wording of Psychic hood doesn't specify that the unit he's denying for HAS to be friendly.

chanceafs wrote:
Well, the rules are very clear about not applying bonuses or modifiers, but the issue comes in with things that don't specifically fall into that category. You could argue back and forth about whether The Aegis is a modifier because it grants re-rolls or not. But what about abilities that have nothing to do with the roll. The CSM, for example have an ability called "Witch Eater" which inflicts a wound on a psyker if 'that unit' successfully DtW's against their power?

If you get to "pick a unit, any unit" against your opponents powers, then my Eldar fortune could bit me in the ass. But if you don't get to use a unit if none of your guys are targeted. Then I can blessing all day long...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To me, the more interesting question, is can a SM with a psychic hood Deny a Blessing with full modifiers and bonuses? Since it allows him to DtW as if he were in the target unit even if he is not. Since the wording of Psychic hood doesn't specify that the unit he's denying for HAS to be friendly.

Its the exact same thing. You can only DTW with a unit that was TARGETED. A blessing does not target, therefore your Hood does nothing.

Here is the problem the rules are poorly written once again.

If you go by RAW then you are supposed to select your unit that was targeted but you can't since your unit wasn't targeted in the first place. It becomes an endless loop. In the spirit of the rules I would say that the aegis isn't usable on DtW for a blessing since the squad wasn't originally the target. I will also point out that if you look under the "Manifesting Psychic Powers Sequence" at "4. Deny the Witch" you get no bonuses but later on it says no modifiers. So once again poor wording. But now we have to consider if Aegis is a bonus. We know its not a modifier, those are clearly stated.

If you go by the RAW that people are quoting then Khorne armies with Kharn just became the best anti psyker in the game due to Kharns ability to DtW on a 2+.

We will just have to wait till GW FAQs it to clear it up.

 Fallenbourne wrote:
If you go by RAW then you are supposed to select your unit that was targeted but you can't since your unit wasn't targeted in the first place..

And around we go again.

You select a targeted unit if a unit was targeted.

If no unit was targeted, then the player just rolls DtW with no modifiers applying. No unit is selected, nor needs to be.





Since we seem to have reached the point where the same arguments are being paraded back and forth with no regard to previous discussion, I think we can close this one down for now and move on.