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So this came up like this. Bemused strike force says its units can roll first turn for for deepstrike. What happens when I have a squad of grey knight terminators with a blood angel in terminator armor attached. It's still a squad from the detachment so can it then still till first turn??

Also the other way around, a blood angel terminator squad with a grey knight librarian ??

IC's become the unit they join so GK squad with a BA IC in it is still a GK unit

But its the not the same in reverse. So a GK IC joining another armies unit does not make it a GK unit so wouldn't get to deep strike turn 1 in this case.

Where did you find this??? I

OneMeanDuck wrote:
Where did you find this??? I

The rules for ICs joining other units is pretty clear on this.

SJ

Don't have my book in front of me so I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the Rites of Teleportation state that only units from the Grey Knights Detachment can use it, so attached ICs and vice versa can't DS turn 1 with the GK.

 Homeskillet wrote:
Don't have my book in front of me so I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the Rites of Teleportation state that only units from the Grey Knights Detachment can use it, so attached ICs and vice versa can't DS turn 1 with the GK.

The rules for ICs make this clear. The BA DSing character can DS with the GKs turn 1 but the GK character cannot with the BA unit.

command benefits do not extend to ICs unless the command benefit specifically states it does so, as per the rules for ICs regarding special rules, and as per the rules for command benefits from the section on detachments.

no model can belong to more than one detachment, and no model can change which detachment it is part of.

Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one.

the BA model attached is not a unit from that detachment. The rites of teleportation rule would not extend to it, as per the RAW for ICs and units.

for the same reason it would not extend from a GK IC from this detachment to another squad,

so the answer is no to both, in neither instance may you benefit from rites of teleportation as per the RAW for ICs and special rules, and as per the raw for belonging to detachments, and as per the RAW of rites of teleportation stating it extends to units from that detachment.

and no an IC from outside of that detachment is not a unit from that detachment, it is a unit from its own detachment even if it is 'joined' to a unit from this detachment.

if it said "the unit" or "any units with models from this detachment" it would be different, but it spells out it affects the units from that detachment, which in this case the BA IC and the BA squad are not from it.

blaktoof wrote:
command benefits do not extend to ICs unless the command benefit specifically states it does so, as per the rules for ICs regarding special rules, and as per the rules for command benefits from the section on detachments.

no model can belong to more than one detachment, and no model can change which detachment it is part of.

Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one.

the BA model attached is not a unit from that detachment. The rites of teleportation rule would not extend to it, as per the RAW for ICs and units.

for the same reason it would not extend from a GK IC from this detachment to another squad,

so the answer is no to both, in neither instance may you benefit from rites of teleportation as per the RAW for ICs and special rules, and as per the raw for belonging to detachments, and as per the RAW of rites of teleportation stating it extends to units from that detachment.

and no an IC from outside of that detachment is not a unit from that detachment, it is a unit from its own detachment even if it is 'joined' to a unit from this detachment.

if it said "the unit" or "any units with models from this detachment" it would be different, but it spells out it affects the units from that detachment, which in this case the BA IC and the BA squad are not from it.

His logic ruined all my fun I was trying to figure out what GK unit I could stuff jump packs on so I could bring them in no scatter with Dante. :(

blaktoof wrote:

and no an IC from outside of that detachment is not a unit from that detachment, it is a unit from its own detachment even if it is 'joined' to a unit from this detachment.

However, when a BA IC joins a GK Unit, it becomes a part of the GK unit FOR ALL RULES PURPOSES, as very clearly mentioned in the IC section. This includes for purposes of Detachments, as detachments are a part of the rules. This single statement has caused great confusion in many places, especially in the hands of such things as Preferred Enemy. The BA literally joins the GK detachment in this case, and becomes a part of the GK unit, despite the -MODEL- having the BA faction. The special rules that the GK unit already possesses, such as Brotherhood of Psykers, would not be conferred. However, the Command Benefit applies to the entire unit, similarly to how having a Painboy in a unit of Orks confers feel no pain to the unit. In the reverse case, the GK IC literally joins the BA unit, and therefore would not be eligible for the Rites as he is no longer a GK detachment unit.

Blak was argued against on this before, but still sticks to the idea that the IC - which is not a BA unit any longer - can be treated distinctly from the GK unit he is attached to.

This of course breaks the IC rules.

YEs, a BA attached to a GK terminator squad can DS turn 1, as the UNIT is a UNIT from the GK detachment. Nothing blaktoof quotes will ever change that fact.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/612847.page

Pretty much the same "IC part of unit" discussion

I'd like to point out that if a non-NSF IC joining a NSF unit prevents the Command Benefit of Rites of Teleportation, then a non-CAD IC joining a CAD Troop will prevent the Command Benefit of Objective Secured. RoT and ObSec are both command benefits of their respective detachments; why would one work while the other would not?

SJ

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Blak was argued against on this before, but still sticks to the idea that the IC - which is not a BA unit any longer - can be treated distinctly from the GK unit he is attached to.

This of course breaks the IC rules.

YEs, a BA attached to a GK terminator squad can DS turn 1, as the UNIT is a UNIT from the GK detachment. Nothing blaktoof quotes will ever change that fact.

You are quite good at cherry picking.

Refer to the the specific rule regarding IC s and joining units with regards to special rules.

Refer to units and detachments. Units belong to detachmenys, no unit can belong to more than one detachment.
State a rule anywhere that let's you leave a detachment or join a new detachment, until then your point is purely hywpi as again you fail to state any raw beyond the general rule for ice joining units and ignore the specific raw AreS mentioned above.

Also show which slot the BA IC comes from in the NSFW detachment as the special rule specifies units from that detachment.

Good luck, you already failed.

The BA IC isn't from the GK detachment - he doesn't have to be.

His unit gets to do cool stuff. He's a member of that unit. Cite rules denying these two facts.

blaktoof wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Blak was argued against on this before, but still sticks to the idea that the IC - which is not a BA unit any longer - can be treated distinctly from the GK unit he is attached to.

This of course breaks the IC rules.

YEs, a BA attached to a GK terminator squad can DS turn 1, as the UNIT is a UNIT from the GK detachment. Nothing blaktoof quotes will ever change that fact.

You are quite good at cherry picking.

Refer to the the specific rule regarding IC s and joining units with regards to special rules.

Refer to units and detachments. Units belong to detachmenys, no unit can belong to more than one detachment.
State a rule anywhere that let's you leave a detachment or join a new detachment, until then your point is purely hywpi as again you fail to state any raw beyond the general rule for ice joining units and ignore the specific raw AreS mentioned above.

Also show which slot the BA IC comes from in the NSFW detachment as the special rule specifies units from that detachment.

Good luck, you already failed.

No, not cherry picking. Pointing out your logical and raw failing.

Is the BA IC a unit while attached? No? Then your argument is disproven. At no point do i claim the ba IC has switched detachment - stop straw manning, it does you little credit. I also note you failed to rebut, just repeated error laden arguments. Not helpful

The UNIT is from the GK detachment. The UNIT may deepstrike turn one. Cite denial , which you cannot do.

Mark it hywpi, as your argument is invalidated.

So does this also mean that any Imperial IC with the DS special rule can come in turn one with Deathwing Termies?

 extremefreak17 wrote:
So does this also mean that any Imperial IC with the DS special rule can come in turn one with Deathwing Termies?

No, because the Deathwing Assault rule specifies that every model in the unit must have the DWA special rule (and terminator armour), whereas Rites doesn't require the entire unit to have the rule. It's not worded in a way such as Stubborn or Fleet, which are clear if they work on the whole unit or not. Rites is unclear, or unspecific, and just requires a general "unit from NSF detachment", not "unit entirely from".

I see, DWA has a model by model requirement.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Blak was argued against on this before, but still sticks to the idea that the IC - which is not a BA unit any longer - can be treated distinctly from the GK unit he is attached to.

This of course breaks the IC rules.

YEs, a BA attached to a GK terminator squad can DS turn 1, as the UNIT is a UNIT from the GK detachment. Nothing blaktoof quotes will ever change that fact.

You are quite good at cherry picking.

Refer to the the specific rule regarding IC s and joining units with regards to special rules.

Refer to units and detachments. Units belong to detachmenys, no unit can belong to more than one detachment.
State a rule anywhere that let's you leave a detachment or join a new detachment, until then your point is purely hywpi as again you fail to state any raw beyond the general rule for ice joining units and ignore the specific raw AreS mentioned above.

Also show which slot the BA IC comes from in the NSFW detachment as the special rule specifies units from that detachment.

Good luck, you already failed.

No, not cherry picking. Pointing out your logical and raw failing.

Is the BA IC a unit while attached? No? Then your argument is disproven. At no point do i claim the ba IC has switched detachment - stop straw manning, it does you little credit. I also note you failed to rebut, just repeated error laden arguments. Not helpful

The UNIT is from the GK detachment. The UNIT may deepstrike turn one. Cite denial , which you cannot do.

Mark it hywpi, as your argument is invalidated.

You already cited denial.

the unit is not from the gk detachment, you cannot change detachments and cannot be in more than one detachment.

if you join an IC from detachment A to detachment B's unit, the IC is still from Detachment A, and is never selected from the FoC or required formation units for detachment B.

Cite permission to count as a member of another detachment, or switch detachments, so that you can properly support your claim.

The special rule in question does not extend to the unit as you have erroneously stated many many times, it extends to "units from the detachment" no part of the actual special rule specifically states it extends to other models in the unit that are not from the detachment.

Special Rules When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

so how does the BA IC switch detachments to the GK NSF one, please cite a rule from any book.

because the above statement is the only way the BA IC is gaining the special rule, as the RAW states its a special rule for units from that detachment, and models may not belong to more than one detachment.

Detachments are made up of units that conform to various requirements.

However, all of the units in your army must belong to a Detachment and no unit can belong to more than one Detachment.

As a reward for adhering to these requirements, each Detachment grants its own Command Benefits to the units within it, which can really enhance their effectiveness in battle.

This lists any additional bonuses or special rules that apply to some, or all, of the units in this Detachment.

COMMAND BENEFITS This section of the Detachment lists any special rules or benefits that apply to some or all of the models in that Detachment.

In the following army list

CAD-
HQ- Chapter master with whatever
Troops- Scouts
Troops- Scouts

NSF-
HQ-Librarian
Troop-Strike Squad

Which detachment does the chapter master belong to?

if it joins the strike squad, which detachment does it belong to?

The RAW answer is the same for both of the above questions.

rites of teleportation is a special rule that is granted to units chosen from the NSF detachment, which detachment is the Chapter master from?

Special Rules When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

The special rule obviously does not extend to all models in the unit from its wording, and is obviously only granted to units from the NSF detachment.

cite permission for the the IC to switch detachments.

Is this topic going to return with every new codex/formation supplement release?

Command benefits are the special rules that are applied only to the models & units in the formation detachment they are listed for. Unless a specific command benefit clearly states that it may be applied to a model that joins a unit in the formation, or may be used on a model/unit outside the formation, then it simply can not.

 Amiricle wrote:
Is this topic going to return with every new codex/formation supplement release?

Command benefits are the special rules that are applied only to the models & units in the formation detachment they are listed for. Unless a specific command benefit clearly states that it may be applied to a model that joins a unit in the formation, or may be used on a model/unit outside the formation, then it simply can not.

Rules citation?

Because as written it works regardless of the IC joining. A GK unit from the detachment is still a GK unit from the detachment regardless of an IC joining it or not (it doesn't make the unit come from a different detachment).

"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

Seems pretty clear to me. Attach an IC (from any eligible Allied detachment) to your GK unit, and they can arrive with that unit as per the NSF rules, provided they have the Deep Strike special rule (since that rule is on a by model basis).

I think it's also important to note that GW went to the trouble of highlighting and specifically addressing a very similar issue:

"An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment."

Why include that very specific restriction if it wasn't assumed that the default answer would be 'yes' for any other instance not specifically addressed?

Deepstriking Inquisitor bomb is still a go!

DoW

the rule works for the GKs in the detachment, if you join a model from outside of the detachment, the model does not gain the rule. Unless the model has a rule that lets you do the same thing, the unit cannot teleport turn 1. For the same reason if you take a unit of models with deepstrike and attach an IC to them that does not have it, or a unit of models with infiltrate, and attach an IC with them that does not have it..the special rule does not extend to the IC unless it specifically states it does as per the RAW for ICs and special rules.

Special Rules When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

Fortunately this is actually covered in the rules for rites of battle, as nowhere does it state you must do this, but rather you can do this. As you are no longer allowed because you 'chose' to add a unit in that does not have the special rule. So instead you make your reserve roll for that unit from turn 2 on like normal.

You can have the models in the unit that have the special rule, which would of course not include any model from outside of the detachment attached to it, still run and shoot in any order on the turn they arrive from deep strike reserve.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DogOfWar wrote:
"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

Seems pretty clear to me. Attach an IC (from any eligible Allied detachment) to your GK unit, and they can arrive with that unit as per the NSF rules, provided they have the Deep Strike special rule (since that rule is on a by model basis).

I think it's also important to note that GW went to the trouble of highlighting and specifically addressing a very similar issue:

"An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment."

Why include that very specific restriction if it wasn't assumed that the default answer would be 'yes' for any other instance not specifically addressed?

Deepstriking Inquisitor bomb is still a go!

DoW

finish reading the rules under ICs....

Special Rules When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

It's been cited many times here, the other thread on this same thing, the Space Wolf deepstriker thread, the ork thread on red skull kommandos, etc.

Page 121 BRB, read "Command Benefits" and "Formations"
Page 166 BRB, under "Independent Character" read "Special Rules"

I agree.

I think some people are getting hung up on special rules, and assuming detachment special rules are some kind of "psychic blessing" that extend to any model that is friendly and comes within 2" of a model from the detachment.

some models in your army have special rules from their unit entries.

some models are granted special rules from being organized into certain unit structures with command benefits / or formation special rules that are given to the units from those formations. That is specifically the units chosen from the FoC in the detachment / the required units of a formation.

some of these special rules specify they extend to any model in the unit per the special rule itself, some do not specify because they only affect the models that have the special rule- like eternal warrior, or any plethora of other special rules which do not state they extend to other models.

some people would like for this rule to extend to other models, but it clearly does not state that it does as per stubbon, shrouded, hit and run, etc.

and as per the Page 166 BRB, under "Independent Character" read "Special Rules" a IC does not gain the special rules the other models in the unit have just by virtue of being in the unit, if the special rule specifically states it extends to other models like stubborn they can benefit from it, otherwise they do not get it. and vice versa between the IC and the unit.

blaktoof wrote:

finish reading the rules under ICs....

That's actually prior to the rule I quoted (if you're going to be snarky, at least be correct) but I'll let that slide since it's late.

You seem to have missed where I talked about Deep Strike and how that is a Special Rule that is not conferred to Independent Characters (as per the rule you quoted). However, the NSF rule doesn't say anything of the sort. As others have mentioned (several times) the NSF rule states:

"Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one..."

Rights of Teleportation isn't a Special Rule, it's a Command Benefit. Provided the IC has the ability to Deep Strike (as the rules for Deep Strike are on a model by model basis), there's nothing stopping you from using this Command Benefit to modify the way the Unit arrives from Reserves.

The ONLY way you would be correct, is if the rule stated "a unit comprised wholly of" or "a unit containing only models from Codex: GK" (as many rules already do), but it clearly doesn't. The unit is still from Detachment Grey Knights no matter if it has a single attached IC or 100 attached ICs. You attach the IC to the unit. What unit, you say? The unit from Detachment Grey Knights. I really don't see how that can be misconstrued so badly.

Additionally, I'm actually very curious why you think GW specifically included the Infiltrate clarification (an entire subtitled section of the rules, no less) since you seem to believe there is no reason for that clarification at all.

DoW

 DogOfWar wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

finish reading the rules under ICs....

That's actually prior to the rule I quoted (if you're going to be snarky, at least be correct) but I'll let that slide since it's late.

You seem to have missed where I talked about Deep Strike and how that is a Special Rule that is not conferred to Independent Characters (as per the rule you quoted). However, the NSF rule doesn't say anything of the sort. As others have mentioned (several times) the NSF rule states:

It doesn't have to state a negative (I.e. exclude models), It has to state a positive (i.e. that it confers to other models - it doesn't) A rule has to state that it confers to additional models. The default is always no. (Page 121)

"Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one..."

Rights of Teleportation isn't a Special Rule, it's a Command Benefit. Provided the IC has the ability to Deep Strike (as the rules for Deep Strike are on a model by model basis), there's nothing stopping you from using this Command Benefit to modify the way the Unit arrives from Reserves.

re infiltrate.

the infiltrate special rule states that if a unit contains at least one model with this special rule then it may infiltrate. This is a special rule that specifically state it extends to all models in the unit if at least one has it, unlike "rites of teleportation"

the section in ICs and infiltrate states that if an IC without infiltrate cannot join a unit that has it.

This was done so that that you could specifically not extend the benefit of Infiltrate to an IC that does not have one, but could extend the benefit of infiltrate from an IC to a unit that did not have it, ie ravenguard special character.

if they wanted Rites of teleportation to extend to all models in the unit, they would have done so- as they obviously were able to make the distinction with special rules such as shrouded, stubborn, etc.

blaktoof wrote:

if they wanted Rites of teleportation to extend to all models in the unit, they would have done so- as they obviously were able to make the distinction with special rules such as shrouded, stubborn, etc.

if they didn't want Rites of teleportation to extend to all models in the unit, they would have done so- as they obviously were able to make the distinction with special rules such as Infiltrator, Relentless, etc.

 CrownAxe wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

if they wanted Rites of teleportation to extend to all models in the unit, they would have done so- as they obviously were able to make the distinction with special rules such as shrouded, stubborn, etc.

if they didn't want Rites of teleportation to extend to all models in the unit, they would have done so- as they obviously were able to make the distinction with special rules such as Infiltrator, Relentless, etc.

unfortunately your statement makes 0 sense in a permissive rules set.

would you like to discuss more things we can pretend we have permission to do when its not stated?