Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

blaktoof wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

if they wanted Rites of teleportation to extend to all models in the unit, they would have done so- as they obviously were able to make the distinction with special rules such as shrouded, stubborn, etc.

if they didn't want Rites of teleportation to extend to all models in the unit, they would have done so- as they obviously were able to make the distinction with special rules such as Infiltrator, Relentless, etc.

unfortunately your statement makes 0 sense in a permissive rules set.

would you like to discuss more things we can pretend we have permission to do when its not stated?

Rites of Teleportation is the permission, to change it you need an exception which you have yet to provide.

yes rites of teleportation gives permission to "units from the NSF detachment" to have a special rule.

the special rule does not give permission for it to extend to other models in the unit if any or one model has it, refer to section on ICs and special rules.

find a rule that says ICs can switch witch detachment they are from, or be in more than 1 detachment to gain this special rule.

you should probably also find a rule that lets an IC from not GK gain GK faction, as the NSF detachment requires GK faction as well.

blaktoof wrote:
yes rites of teleportation gives permission to "units from the NSF detachment" to have a special rule.

the special rule does not give permission for it to extend to other models in the unit if any or one model has it, refer to section on ICs and special rules.

It actually does. The example in the rule you often quote is Stubborn - let's look at the wording of that rule.

When a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule takes Morale checks or Pinning tests, they ignore any negative Leadership modifiers. If a unit is both Fearless and Stubborn, it uses the rules for Fearless instead.

Rites:

In addition, all units from this Detachment can both Run and Shoot, in any order, in the same turn that they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve.

Note how both rules are unit based (all units, a unit that contains...). Neither rule exempts specific models.

Your cited rule doesn't apply. Keep reaching.

You have a deep misunderstanding of how detachments work.

the unit is not from the gk detachment, you cannot change detachments and cannot be in more than one detachment.

if you join an IC from detachment A to detachment B's unit, the IC is still from Detachment A, and is never selected from the FoC or required formation units for detachment B.

Cite permission to count as a member of another detachment, or switch detachments, so that you can properly support your claim.

The special rule in question does not extend to the unit as you have erroneously stated many many times, it extends to "units from the detachment" no part of the actual special rule specifically states it extends to other models in the unit that are not from the detachment.

Special Rules When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

so how does the BA IC switch detachments to the GK NSF one, please cite a rule from any book.

because the above statement is the only way the BA IC is gaining the special rule, as the RAW states its a special rule for units from that detachment, and models may not belong to more than one detachment.

Detachments are made up of units that conform to various requirements.

However, all of the units in your army must belong to a Detachment and no unit can belong to more than one Detachment.

As a reward for adhering to these requirements, each Detachment grants its own Command Benefits to the units within it, which can really enhance their effectiveness in battle.

This lists any additional bonuses or special rules that apply to some, or all, of the units in this Detachment.

COMMAND BENEFITS This section of the Detachment lists any special rules or benefits that apply to some or all of the models in that Detachment.

In the following army list

CAD-
HQ- Chapter master with whatever
Troops- Scouts
Troops- Scouts

NSF-
HQ-Librarian
Troop-Strike Squad

Which detachment does the chapter master belong to?

if it joins the strike squad, which detachment does it belong to?

The RAW answer is the same for both of the above questions.

rites of teleportation is a special rule that is granted to units chosen from the NSF detachment, which detachment is the Chapter master from?

Special Rules When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

The special rule obviously does not extend to all models in the unit from its wording, and is obviously only granted to units from the NSF detachment.

cite permission for the the IC to switch detachments, or belong to more than one detachment. Otherwise the IC does not benefit from the special rule, as even if it joins a unit from the NSF detachment, it is not a unit from the NSF detachment as per the RAW.

I agree with that train of thought only because it seems appropriate, but as we know, when discussion RaW, wishful thinking is not a valid choice.
The problem comes down to this statement:

blaktoof wrote:
no unit can belong to more than one Detachment.

When the SM Commander joins a Strike Squad, they are, from Turn 1 to 6 a single unit (if they stay together).

So what is that single unit's Detachment? A or B?

And that is the root of the issue. As much as i want to agree with you that the IC is A and the Squad is B, that the special rules for detachment are always separate, etc, there will always be a discrepancy :/

blaktoof wrote:
You have a deep misunderstanding of how detachments work.

No, I don't. You have a deep misunderstanding of how the rules work.

the unit is not from the gk detachment, you cannot change detachments and cannot be in more than one detachment.

The GK unit is not from the GK detachment? Prove it. Please. I would love to see it.

if you join an IC from detachment A to detachment B's unit, the IC is still from Detachment A, and is never selected from the FoC or required formation units for detachment B.

Irrelevant and not being argued.

Cite permission to count as a member of another detachment, or switch detachments, so that you can properly support your claim.

My claim doesn't rely on this at all. Perhaps if you'd read my posts instead of assuming you're correct?

The special rule in question does not extend to the unit as you have erroneously stated many many times, it extends to "units from the detachment" no part of the actual special rule specifically states it extends to other models in the unit that are not from the detachment.

I have a model that is a member of a unit. That unit is a unit from the detachment. Cite permission to exclude that model.

so how does the BA IC switch detachments to the GK NSF one, please cite a rule from any book.

Stop claiming this as my argument. I haven't ever said this is true. You're arguing a strawman here.

And you still haven't answered how those rules are broken. Please do so. I've asked politely twice (three times now).

strawman...

blaktoof wrote:
strawman...

So please - show me where I've argued that the BA IC changes detachment.

The only way you can give a unit from outside a NSF detachment the special rule you are trying to give it is by making it change detachments, or count as being in both detachments.

it is not a member of the NSF detachment.

detachment special rules are granted by being in the detachment, which is done well before the game or deployment during army selection.

The BA IC does not have the special rules for detachment it is not part of, and may not be in more than one detachment. Obviously its not in the NSF detachment, because its not GK faction which is required to be in the NSF detachment, and is a member of its own detachment, we will just say CAD.

the BA IC has the special rules granted to it from any wargear it may have, any special rules it may have from its own unit entry, and from the detachment it may belong to if any.

the same is true for the units that make up the NSF detachment.

during deployment after the detachments have already given the units in them their special rules/restrictions if you join the BA IC to a unit from the NSF squad you need specific permission for the special rule the NSF squad has to confer to any other model that joins it.

as per the rules for ICs and special rules.

joining an IC from a CAD to a unit from a NSF detachment does not make either one part of the others detachments.

Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

Otherwise the IC cannot benefit from the special rule it does not have.

blaktoof wrote:
The only way you can give a unit from outside a NSF detachment the special rule you are trying to give it is by making it change detachments, or count as being in both detachments.

Incorrect.

your statement is trolling unless you can actually provide a rules argument for how this happens.

blaktoof wrote:
your statement is trolling unless you can actually provide a rules argument for how this happens.

I have.
The detachment rule applies to units in the detachments. You're asserting that a specific model in a unit in the detachment is exempted from that rule, and keep citing detachment membership (which is irrelevant).
You haven't actually supported your statement that only models in the detachment can benefit from a rule specifying units in the detachment.

no, you have not shown how an IC from outside a detachment becomes a unit from that detachment.

where was the IC purchased, was it purchased as unit from that detachment or another one?

blaktoof wrote:
no, you have not shown how an IC from outside a detachment becomes a unit from that detachment.

That's not my argument and isn't required to prove my point.
That's the very definition of a strawman.

You're not arguing my point, you're picking something that I'm not arguing and saying "Since you can't prove that you're incorrect."

Argue against what I've said, please, and not what you think I should be saying.

it is required.

you do not understand the rules, nor what a strawman is.

your taking the rule "units from this detachment" get this rule.

then saying it says "units" get this rule.

then when anyone brings up the detachment part you pretty much get upset they are bringing up rules you arent arguing, because they are arguing the rules that actually exist other then what you have cherry picked for your poor claim.

Battle-forged Armies

A player using the Battle-forged method must organise all the units they want to use into Detachments. Detachments are made up of units that conform to various requirements. For example, one common type of Detachment requires the use of at least one HQ unit and two Troops units; another might require that only units from Codex: Orks be included. As a reward for adhering to these requirements, each Detachment grants its own Command Benefits to the units within it, which can really enhance their effectiveness in battle.

the command benefit is granted to units from within the detachment.

is an IC from outside of the NSF detachment within the detachment?

no, then it does not get the command benefit.

also there is

COMMAND BENEFITS This section of the Detachment lists any special rules or benefits that apply to some or all of the models in that Detachment.

is the IC a model from the NSF detachment, also no...



Lets say we have a unit, IC from a CAD+5 strike squad members from a NSF detachment

great!

5 models in the unit have rites of teleportation and 1 does not. Looking at:

Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

we can see the unit has different special rules than the IC that joined it. If the rule specifies in the rule itself the rule is conferred to other models in the unit then the IC gets.

Does it?

nope, okay move on.
.

blaktoof wrote:
you do not understand the rules, nor what a strawman is.

"A straw man is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on the misrepresentation of an opponent's argument"
You've misrepresented my argument to require that the IC changes detachments. I've never said that and never will. You are - by definition - misrepresenting my argument and therefore a strawman.
Please, defend your statements.

your taking the rule "units from this detachment" get this rule.

then saying it says "units" get this rule.

then when anyone brings up the detachment part you pretty much get upset they are bringing up rules you arent arguing, because they are arguing the rules that actually exist other then what you have cherry picked for your poor claim.

Um... no?
Units from the detachment get the rule. Absolutely. No question or argument at all. None.
The GK unit is granted the command benefit.
The BA IC does not get the same command benefit.

The BA IC is not its own unit when it joins the GK unit.
The GK unit still gets the command benefit - it's still from the GK detachment.
The BA IC is a member of the unit for all rules purposes. Agreed?
You're asserting that a member of a unit does not benefit from a rule that all units in a GK detachment benefit from. Agreed?

the BA IC does not become a member of the detachment when it joins the unit.

the GK unit are given the command benefit by being in the detachment, it is a special rule not an ongoing effect. They get it during army creation when the unit is organized into the detachment, please read the section on battle forged armies.

the BA IC is a member of the unit, but does not gain the special rule because it is not a member of the DETACHMENT. The BA IC has the special rules from its detachment, which the unit it joins does not gain either if it is not part of the same detachment.

it is never a unit from the NSF detachment, nor is it ever part of a unit chosen from the units within the NSF detachment.

blaktoof wrote:
the BA IC does not become a member of the detachment when it joins the unit.

Correct!

the GK unit are given the command benefit by being in the detachment, it is a special rule not an ongoing effect.

Query: Does the unit have that special rule, or the detachment have a command benefit that all units in the detachment benefit from?

Battle-forged Armies

A player using the Battle-forged method must organise all the units they want to use into Detachments. Detachments are made up of units that conform to various requirements. For example, one common type of Detachment requires the use of at least one HQ unit and two Troops units; another might require that only units from Codex: Orks be included. As a reward for adhering to these requirements, each Detachment grants its own Command Benefits to the units within it, which can really enhance their effectiveness in battle.

answer your own question with the RAW.

blaktoof wrote:

Battle-forged Armies

A player using the Battle-forged method must organise all the units they want to use into Detachments. Detachments are made up of units that conform to various requirements. For example, one common type of Detachment requires the use of at least one HQ unit and two Troops units; another might require that only units from Codex: Orks be included. As a reward for adhering to these requirements,

each Detachment grants its own Command Benefits to the units within it,

which can really enhance their effectiveness in battle.

answer your own question with the RAW.

I did.
Each DETACHMENT (since you like caps) grants abilities to the units in it.
So it isn't a unit special rule, it's a DETACHMENT special rule.

So your oft-quoted IC rule doesn't apply.

even if that were true, which you are mistaken on.

an IC from outside the detachment is not from the NSF detachment.

However there is no such thing as a detachment special rule.

there are only special rules.

by adhering to the restrictions in the detachment, the units within the detachment are given the special rule.

to try and make it easier for you to understand this here we go.

CAD
HQ-Joe
Troops- Trolls

All troops from this detachment get the special rule X.

NSF
HQ-Peter
Troops-Dandys

All dandys in this detachment get the special rule Y.

So the army lists are made, you write down the unit entries and CAD troops get special rule X added to their entry, Dandys get special rule Y added to their entry.

You go on to roll sides do deployment, etc.

Certain units are given certain special rules by being chosen from within a detachment.

they are just special rules, and the rules regarding ICs apply.

even without it the IC does not gain the special rule because its not a model or unit chosen from within the NSF detachment.

The special rule is granted to the units/models chosen from within the detachment before the game begins. The special rule does not specifically state it confers to other models in the unit after the game begins.


can you find somewhere that tells us the difference between "detachment special rules" and just normal "special rules"?

also if you notice from

COMMAND BENEFITS This section of the Detachment lists any special rules or benefits that apply to some or all of the models in that Detachment

You will see they are not detachment special rules, but they are just special rules as there are not multiple kinds of different special levels of special rules, like wargear special rules, unit entry special rules, detachment special rules, army special rules, formation special rules.

models have special rules by virtue of their entry, wargear, their detachment, or their formation, or their army. These are given to them before deployment of the game begins unless otherwise specified.

There is no RAW way to give a special rule granted by virtue of being chosen from a detachment, to models outside of that detachment short of the interaction required under the section for ICs and special rules.

blaktoof wrote:
even if that were true, which you are mistaken on.

Please, explain how I'm mistaken.

1.) I agree with blaktoof. Detachment rules apply to members of that detachment.

An IC joining a unit makes him a member of that unit, not the detachment. That seems pretty RAI and RAW.

2.) Anyone acussing someone else of a strawman argument, is usually grasping at straws at that point

3.) Granting detachment benefits to models outside the detachment with the rules for IC joining units would be an EXCEPTION to the requirements of the detachment rule, requiring a rule specifically allowing it.

IC rules are general concerning special abilities
Detachment rules are specific

Specific rules overide general

 adamsouza wrote:
1.) I agree with blaktoof. Detachment rules apply to members of that detachment.

An IC joining a unit makes him a member of that unit, not the detachment. That seems pretty RAI and RAW.

The detachment rules explicitly apply to units of that detachment.

2.) Anyone acussing someone else of a strawman argument, is usually grasping at straws at that point

Not when I've demonstrated it's true. Repeatedly.

3.) Granting detachment benefits to models outside the detachment with the rules for IC joining units would be an EXCEPTION to the requirements of the detachment rule, requiring a rule specifically allowing it.

No, it wouldn't. The detachment rule applies benefits to all units in the detachment. The IC rules require you to treat the IC as a member of the unit for all rules purposes.
Is this a rules purpose?

The IC is not a member of that detachment.

The IC cannot become a member of that detachment, even by being joined to a unit from that detachment.

The IC already has the special rules from its detachment before its put on the table.

The unit already has the special rules from its detachment before it is put on the table.

If you join a unit with special rules to an IC that does not have that special rule you follow the rules for ICs joining units that have special rules the IC does not have.

The IC from a non NSF detachment is never, ever, a member of the NSF detachment. ever.

So as Rigeld showed, you both believe that a Unit with Objective Secured, joined by an IC without ObSec would obviously not have the Rule?

I can understand that position, but would not call it RaI even if RaW acceptable...

Also not HIWPI :/

blaktoof wrote:
The IC is not a member of that detachment.

The IC cannot become a member of that detachment, even by being joined to a unit from that detachment.

The IC already has the special rules from its detachment before its put on the table.

The unit already has the special rules from its detachment before it is put on the table.

Irrelevant and no one is arguing any of this. Repetition != relevancy.

If you join a unit with special rules to an IC that does not have that special rule you follow the rules for ICs joining units that have special rules the IC does not have.

The IC from a non NSF detachment is never, ever, a member of the NSF detachment. ever.

The unit doesn't have the special rule. The detachment gives the unit a bonus.
As to the bold, again - I've never, ever argued that. Ever. Repeating it doesn't mean I have.

the rules for objective secure are not the same as the one in question here, rites of teleportation.

fairly certain obj secure states its given to units troop units in the detachment, so those are the models with the special rule.

but the special rule obj secured states within itself that

All Troops units from this Detachment have the Objective Secured special rule. A unit with this special rule controls objectives even if an enemy scoring unit is within range of the objective marker, unless the enemy unit also has this special rule.

so even though an IC attached to the troop unit with OBJ secure does not have obj secure, obj secure itself states the unit with this special rule.

in the case of rites of teleportation it still specifies in the rule itself that units from the detachment have the special rule, then goes on to state "you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one."

the language in the two rules is different.

obj secure calls out a unit with the special rule.

rites of teleportation calls out units from the detachment.

the reason rites of teleportation doesn't work is because of the specific call out of units from the detachment, so a gk terminator squad has the rule, and an attached IC to it does not. The net effect is the whole unit does not have the rule, and there is no permission for the unit in general to use the rule without the whole unit having it, there is also the issue that the attached IC does not have the rule, and is not a unit from the NSF detachment even if attached to the gk terminator unit, it is a unit from its own detachment. There is just no way for the attached IC from outside of the NSF detachment to benefit from the rule because of how the rule is worded.

Now there are some other ICs that can deep strike turn 1 from their own special rules and would be able to join the gk unit and deepstrike with it, the attached IC would not benefit from rites of teleportation but would not prevent the unit from deepstriking turn 1 as the IC would be able to as well.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The IC is not a member of that detachment.

The IC cannot become a member of that detachment, even by being joined to a unit from that detachment.

The IC already has the special rules from its detachment before its put on the table.

The unit already has the special rules from its detachment before it is put on the table.

Irrelevant and no one is arguing any of this. Repetition != relevancy.

If you join a unit with special rules to an IC that does not have that special rule you follow the rules for ICs joining units that have special rules the IC does not have.

The IC from a non NSF detachment is never, ever, a member of the NSF detachment. ever.

The unit doesn't have the special rule. The detachment gives the unit a bonus.
As to the bold, again - I've never, ever argued that. Ever. Repeating it doesn't mean I have.

at this point absolutely anything you type is irrelevant.

There seems to be a lack of understanding in how units and IC joining units work. The rules are very specific that an IC becomes part of the unit he/she joins for all rules purposes. Therefore, if the unit that an IC join has a rule granted by it's detachment then it still has that rule and can still do it.

At no point is the IC being granted that rule. It may be benefiting from the rule because the unit it is part of is benefiting but the IC does not have the rule. The only time an IC doesn't benefit from rules granted to a unit it joins is when the rule specifically says so (Infiltrate, deep strike and such).

blaktoof wrote:
the rules for objective secure are not the same as the one in question here, rites of teleportation.

... what?

All Troops units from this Detachment have the Objective Secured special rule.

In addition, all units from this Detachment can both Run and Shoot, in any order, in the same turn that they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve.

How are they worded different?

so even though an IC attached to the troop unit with OBJ secure does not have obj secure, obj secure itself states the unit with this special rule.

in the case of rites of teleportation it still specifies in the rule itself that units from the detachment have the special rule, then goes on to state "you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one."

No, it never says that units have the special rule.

the language in the two rules is different.

No, they aren't.

at this point absolutely anything you type is irrelevant.

Pro debate skills right here. I'm sure you'll go far with this "I'm right because you don't know what you're talking about and I'm going to repeat myself until you believe me." attitude. Well done!