Orks vs Tyranids

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**Tyran**

raiden wrote:
Except that nids are not 100% efecient. So lose a lot of that biomass. If a fex was slain and burned you wouldn't get back 100% that was there. Even if you did you lose a % of the biomass to remake him... Again.

That doesn't matter because the huge amounts of resources they can get from a planet.

**PhillyT**

Xyptc wrote:
PhillyT wrote:
Fewer troops than tyranids. It isn't an overly complicated calculus = Tyranids overcome the ranged technology through attrition and vast numbers, similar to orks. With some extremely rare exceptions, they must vastly out number their opponents to win.

And then when they win, they win your world and everything on it, as well as any other edible planets in the system.

There is a reason why both Kryptman and now the Eldar have adopted scorched earth policies, waiting for the Tyranids to invade a world and then burning the world taking as many Tyranids as possible with them. The risk of losing to the Tyranids on the ground is too great; if you lose, all the damage you inflict upon them might as well count for nothing because almost all of the lost Tyranid organisms are recovered, along with an enormous amount of extra resources.

90% casualties doesn't matter when you get the resources at the end to walk away from the planet with more than you arrived with. The only practical solution is to a) deny the planet itself and b) destroy the fleet in space to stop it moving on to an easier target (that undefended agri-world two systems over?) and coming back with even greater strength while you are badly mauled from the last fight.

Yes, completely true. But the Hive Fleets have been getting beaten for the most part. When the Tyranids aren't able to recoup their expenditures, they falter and fail.

They still need to actually win.

**Tyran**

Well it is a war, obviously you need to win, if not you are dead.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

PhillyT wrote:
The whole "ultra genetic evolution" thing is still ridiculous. Unless the Tyranids make up some new form of movement, they are pretty much what they are going to be. They can tweak a couple things, but genestealers will always be what they are, homagaunts are what they are, etc.

You are confusing Tyranid adaptation with Tyranid evolution.
Adaptation is the creation of counter-measures in the form of biomorphs, new creatures and new strategies. For example, problems with enemy vehicles? throw Tyrannofexes at the problem.

Meanwhile Tyranid evolution comes from their prey DNA.
Hive Fleets like Kraken that have consumed huge amounts of Eldar DNA have stronger psychic abilities. Meanwhile the constant stream of Ork DNA is making Leviathan's creatures tougher than average because they are gaining Ork traits.

**Xyptc**

raiden wrote:
Except that nids are not 100% efecient. So lose a lot of that biomass. If a fex was slain and burned you wouldn't get back 100% that was there. Even if you did you lose a % of the biomass to remake him... Again.

The vast, vast majority of the biomass the Tyranids take comes from the planet itself, not from consumed armies.

**Melissia**

Tyran wrote:
In the process of nomnoming the planet, the Tyranids move more matter than the entirety of the Adeptus Mechanicus can in 20 years.

No, this is not even a remotely true or believable statement.

**Tyran**

Melissia wrote:
Tyran wrote:
In the process of nomnoming the planet, the Tyranids move more matter than the entirety of the Adeptus Mechanicus can in 20 years.
No, this is not even a remotely true or believable statement.

Ups, it was a decade, not 20 years. This quote comes from a White Dwarf 254:

Lord Commanders,

I bring you grave news. The threat we face may be far more vast than we ever dreamed. Technical analysis of Dalki-Prime pre Tyranid consumption survey information when cross-referenced with the data from Dalki-Mons post Tyranid consumption shows some startling information.

Dalki-Prime was an agricultural planet with a diameter of 12,500 km, slightly smaller than Terra. The Tyranid fleet was able to remove the following quantities of material from the planet within 100 days [Terran Standard].

1.55 billion cubic km water, one cubic km of sea water weighs over 1 trillion kg.
8.67 billion cubic km gases, at STP theoretically they could reduce this to 1 tenth its volume by super cooling and pressure (3 atm, and 0ºC).
72 million cubic km soil and minerals, weighing 1.4 trillion kg per cubic km.

It is nearly inconceivable how they were able to accomplish this in such a short time, much less explain where the materials were taken, as the typical hive fleets encountered historically are not capable of transporting even a fraction of this volume. Over 10 billion cubic kilometres of material was removed from the planet. This would require untold millions of ships and is far beyond the scope of the entire Adeptus Mechanicus to accomplish given a decade. Most astonishing is that this is insufficient to sate their hunger and they strike again and again, often within months. We must somehow determine if these fleets are somehow sending material back to their home systems for it seems obvious that they are not using all the materials.

Detailed analysis of devastated worlds have yielded the following data in conjunction with orbital surveillance satellite and data recordings which were recovered.

Magos Biologis Salk,
Draco Legion Biomedical Research station, New Hallefuss

**Jayden63**

Tyran wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Tyran wrote:
In the process of nomnoming the planet, the Tyranids move more matter than the entirety of the Adeptus Mechanicus can in 20 years.
No, this is not even a remotely true or believable statement.

Ups, it was a decade, not 20 years. This quote comes from a White Dwarf 254:

Lord Commanders,

I bring you grave news. The threat we face may be far more vast than we ever dreamed. Technical analysis of Dalki-Prime pre Tyranid consumption survey information when cross-referenced with the data from Dalki-Mons post Tyranid consumption shows some startling information.

Dalki-Prime was an agricultural planet with a diameter of 12,500 km, slightly smaller than Terra. The Tyranid fleet was able to remove the following quantities of material from the planet within 100 days [Terran Standard].

1.55 billion cubic km water, one cubic km of sea water weighs over 1 trillion kg.
8.67 billion cubic km gases, at STP theoretically they could reduce this to 1 tenth its volume by super cooling and pressure (3 atm, and 0ºC).
72 million cubic km soil and minerals, weighing 1.4 trillion kg per cubic km.

It is nearly inconceivable how they were able to accomplish this in such a short time, much less explain where the materials were taken, as the typical hive fleets encountered historically are not capable of transporting even a fraction of this volume. Over 10 billion cubic kilometres of material was removed from the planet. This would require untold millions of ships and is far beyond the scope of the entire Adeptus Mechanicus to accomplish given a decade. Most astonishing is that this is insufficient to sate their hunger and they strike again and again, often within months. We must somehow determine if these fleets are somehow sending material back to their home systems for it seems obvious that they are not using all the materials.

Detailed analysis of devastated worlds have yielded the following data in conjunction with orbital surveillance satellite and data recordings which were recovered.

Magos Biologis Salk,
Draco Legion Biomedical Research station, New Hallefuss

Regretfully anytime any GW publication gives actual numbers they are grossly inflated beyond reason. Even giving a health suspension of disbelief.

**Tyran**

Jayden63 wrote:

Regretfully anytime any GW publication gives actual numbers they are grossly inflated beyond reason. Even giving a health suspension of disbelief.

The sea water number is consistent with the amount of water on an Earth-like planet, and we know the Tyranids drink all of it. We also know that they eat all the atmosphere so I guess the gases number is also consistent. The only weird part is the amount of soil and minerals consumed, but if the Hive Fleet is capable of moving 1.55 billion cubic km water, then 72 million cubic km should be also be possible.

**Melissia**

That's still not believable. The Mechanicus operates on over a million planets and planetoids and asteroids and other such places-- including many places where the Mechanicus does deep core mining, obtaining uncounted amounts of resources that the Tyranids don't or can't get with their usual harvesting methods.

That the Imperium/Mechanicus does not strip worlds of biomass doesn't mean that they do not harvest immense amounts of wealth and production from the worlds in which they control. They do. They just simply find farming to be more productive than simply stripping everything and moving on (and it is, because farming allows for far more energy from the planet's star to be converted in to food).

**Tyran**

Melissia wrote:
That's still not believable. The Mechanicus operates on over a million planets and planetoids and asteroids and other such places-- including many places where the Mechanicus does deep core mining, obtaining uncounted amounts of resources that the Tyranids don't or can't get with their usual harvesting methods.

Of those million planets, a good portion are less advanced than 20th century Earth. The Mechanicus, for all its power, is limited to the relatively few Forge Worlds. Hell, it takes decades for a Forge World to build a Battleship, meanwhile Leviathan spawned a fleet from Ghorala in months.

That the Imperium/Mechanicus does not strip worlds of biomass doesn't mean that they do not harvest immense amounts of wealth and production from the worlds in which they control. They do. They just simply find farming to be more productive than simply stripping everything and moving on (and it is, because farming allows for far more energy from the planet's star to be converted in to food).

Farming is also limited by the amount of nutrients in the soil.

**Melissia**

Tyran wrote:
Of those million planets, a good portion are less advanced than 20th century Earth. The Mechanicus, for all its power, is limited to the relatively few Forge Worlds.

No they're not. There's factories all of the Imperium, that supply goods to the trillions of Imperial citizens and guardsmen and Space Marines every day.

All controlled, to greater or lesser extent, by the Mechanicus.

**Alcibiades**

If Tyranids were actually masters of genetic manipulation and smart about it, they would virus-bomb planets with genetically tailored organisms, then come down and eat the trillions of corpses.

Instead they use variants of "run at things and eat them," clearly instinctive.

**Wyzilla**

Melissia wrote:
Tyran wrote:
Of those million planets, a good portion are less advanced than 20th century Earth. The Mechanicus, for all its power, is limited to the relatively few Forge Worlds.
No they're not. There's factories all of the Imperium, that supply goods to the trillions of Imperial citizens and guardsmen and Space Marines every day.

All controlled, to greater or lesser extent, by the Mechanicus.

I put up some basic calcs somehwere, but for just like a thousand words with a hundred billion on each hive world, would require the imperium ship a nonillion calories per day.

EDIT, found it-

OK, unless I screwed up my math somewhere, going with the idea that the Imperium has 30,000 massive hive worlds with ~100 billion each, this means there's around three quadrillion citizens alone there. Going by an average calorie consumption, and assuming that the Imperium is a gakky ass place to live as stated several times in the lore, thus would be giving their citizens only 1800 calories a day, this means that the Imperium, to sustain these 30,000 hive worlds out of their million plus planets, would have to generate 15,243,604,656,924,933,407,477,640,462,336 calories each day to sustain those planets. That's 15 nonillion. Assuming only 30,000 planets have hit the population cap.

Definitely. Especially when looking at the healthy 2500 calorie number would require 5,637,710,113,660,432,398,319,244,384,765,625 calories per day. Which is 6 Decilion.

Also note to that for just one 100 billion person hive world, the Imperium would need to ship one hundred million tons of food per day.

**Hansisaf**

Didn't the Tyranids create the Lictor (and specifically Deathleaper) to kill the Ork warbosses in order to have a Waaaaagh collapse?

**Broly**

Alcibiades wrote:
If Tyranids were actually masters of genetic manipulation and smart about it, they would virus-bomb planets with genetically tailored organisms, then come down and eat the trillions of corpses.

Instead they use variants of "run at things and eat them," clearly instinctive.

Yeah, that would actually make much more sense. But I guess that's not as awesome as nom-noming.

**Melissia**

Hansisaf wrote:
Didn't the Tyranids create the Lictor (and specifically Deathleaper) to kill the Ork warbosses in order to have a Waaaaagh collapse?

Well they failed miserably if that's the case

**Tyran**

Hansisaf wrote:
Didn't the Tyranids create the Lictor (and specifically Deathleaper) to kill the Ork warbosses in order to have a Waaaaagh collapse?

Unlikely, Octavia is the first Ork empire that has managed to stand against Nids, and the Lictor precedes that conflict by a lot.

**Xyptc**

Hansisaf wrote:
Didn't the Tyranids create the Lictor (and specifically Deathleaper) to kill the Ork warbosses in order to have a Waaaaagh collapse?

Sort of correct. This is the Ghorala system campaign again. The Tyranids were vastly outnumbered their fleet in orbit was destroyed completely), and the Orks were led by a particularly brilliant warlord. The Tyranids worked out that he was the cause of the Orks being so successful during the war, and set a trap for him. Ultimately he was lured into a toxic cloud and butchered by a large Lictor brood. The Ork armies on the surface and in space fell into infighting, and the Tyranids conquered and devoured the planet shortly afterwards.

Tyran wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Tyran wrote:
In the process of nomnoming the planet, the Tyranids move more matter than the entirety of the Adeptus Mechanicus can in 20 years.
No, this is not even a remotely true or believable statement.

Ups, it was a decade, not 20 years. This quote comes from a White Dwarf 254:

Lord Commanders,

I bring you grave news. The threat we face may be far more vast than we ever dreamed. Technical analysis of Dalki-Prime pre Tyranid consumption survey information when cross-referenced with the data from Dalki-Mons post Tyranid consumption shows some startling information.

Dalki-Prime was an agricultural planet with a diameter of 12,500 km, slightly smaller than Terra. The Tyranid fleet was able to remove the following quantities of material from the planet within 100 days [Terran Standard].

1.55 billion cubic km water, one cubic km of sea water weighs over 1 trillion kg.
8.67 billion cubic km gases, at STP theoretically they could reduce this to 1 tenth its volume by super cooling and pressure (3 atm, and 0ºC).
72 million cubic km soil and minerals, weighing 1.4 trillion kg per cubic km.

It is nearly inconceivable how they were able to accomplish this in such a short time, much less explain where the materials were taken, as the typical hive fleets encountered historically are not capable of transporting even a fraction of this volume. Over 10 billion cubic kilometres of material was removed from the planet. This would require untold millions of ships and is far beyond the scope of the entire Adeptus Mechanicus to accomplish given a decade. Most astonishing is that this is insufficient to sate their hunger and they strike again and again, often within months. We must somehow determine if these fleets are somehow sending material back to their home systems for it seems obvious that they are not using all the materials.

Detailed analysis of devastated worlds have yielded the following data in conjunction with orbital surveillance satellite and data recordings which were recovered.

Magos Biologis Salk,
Draco Legion Biomedical Research station, New Hallefuss

That is actually some home-brew fluff from a guy named Sherman Bishop, who ran a really (really) great website for his Hive Fleet Harbinger army (distinctive purple flesh and gold armour). He did all of this around second edition, through into the void when third was launched but before the third edition Tyranid codex was released. GW liked his fluff so much that they used large chunks of it in the third edition codex, printed more in a few White Dwarf magazines at the time and generally embraced his ideas. The whole thing is from the POV of a cadre of Imperial Magos Biologis, so it is not "word of god". Discrepancies can be written off as the Magos in question being ill-informed, or perhaps merely judging what the Tyranids were doing on that one world against his experience of the Mechanicus in the local sector.