Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm sorry if this has been discussed to death, but I have two questions about casting psychic powers.

1. Can you cast the same power multiple times?
I realize the effects of a doubled up same power aren't cumulative, like, a level 2 Librarian couldn't cast Iron Arm on himself twice for +6S +6T, BUT, could that same level 2 Librarian cast smite twice in the same psychic phase?

2. Do failed powers count towards the # of powers you can manifest in a turn?
Like, if I have a level 1 Libarian trying to manifest smite, and let's say I roll up 4 warp charge dice, can I roll one, fail it (oh no I rolled a 2), and then try to manifest it again with one or more of the remaining die, until it goes off, and then that would be his one power that he's allowed to cast per phase, or would the very first failure count as his one power per phase?

Thanks in advance guys, and also sorry again if this has been discussed to death. Whew.

1) The same psyker (meaning psyker unit) cannot attempt to manifest the same power more than once per phase
2) Psykers have no limits on how many powers they can cast, apart from how many they know (due to 1)) and needing dice to cast with. and
2b) if you fail to cast, that counts as you attepmt as 1) above, so in your example he cannot try again because of this rule, not because of some mythical limit on how many powers he can cast.

 Walnuts wrote:
I'm sorry if this has been discussed to death, but I have two questions about casting psychic powers.

1. Can you cast the same power multiple times?
I realize the effects of a doubled up same power aren't cumulative, like, a level 2 Librarian couldn't cast Iron Arm on himself twice for +6S +6T, BUT, could that same level 2 Librarian cast smite twice in the same psychic phase?

2. Do failed powers count towards the # of powers you can manifest in a turn?
Like, if I have a level 1 Libarian trying to manifest smite, and let's say I roll up 4 warp charge dice, can I roll one, fail it (oh no I rolled a 2), and then try to manifest it again with one or more of the remaining die, until it goes off, and then that would be his one power that he's allowed to cast per phase, or would the very first failure count as his one power per phase?

Thanks in advance guys, and also sorry again if this has been discussed to death. Whew.

1. No. A psychic unit may not attempt to cast the same power twice.*

2. Yes. See above.

*As for what a "psychic unit" is, it's debated (I believe)
Some people say it's "a unit consisting of any number of psykers", others say "a Psyker unit is the number of separate Psykers in a unit" (if that second one makes sense. I couldn't really figure a good way to word it)

Okay, derp, just re-read the psychic section and saw that part. Thanks man. This is what happens when you skim rules at a tournament, things can get very confusing haha.

 Walnuts wrote:
Okay, derp, just re-read the psychic section and saw that part. Thanks man. This is what happens when you skim rules at a tournament, things can get very confusing haha.

It happens to the best of us.
^_^
It's when you look for it before asking that it doesn't show up.

Doesn't matter how closely you read those rules, they don't make complete sense.

It is definite that the same *model* can't even attempt the same power twice.

It is possible that even the same *unit* can't even attempt the same power twice.

It is definite that the pysker can cast as many powers as its Mastery level.

It is possible it can cast as many powers as it knows.

coredump wrote:
It is possible that even the same *unit* can't even attempt the same power twice.

Uh, it's quite definite that the same unit can't attempt to cast the same power twice. That's one of the few things that is actually clear in the psychic rules.

 insaniak wrote:

coredump wrote:
It is possible that even the same *unit* can't even attempt the same power twice.

Uh, it's quite definite that the same unit can't attempt to cast the same power twice. That's one of the few things that is actually clear in the psychic rules.

It's definite that the same psyker unit can't attempt to cast the same power twice.

The problem being, as Ond Angel told, to know what exactly is a psyker unit.
One of the 2 solutions causes a lot of problem, the other one don't.

 RabbitMaster wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

coredump wrote:
It is possible that even the same *unit* can't even attempt the same power twice.

Uh, it's quite definite that the same unit can't attempt to cast the same power twice. That's one of the few things that is actually clear in the psychic rules.

It's definite that the same psyker unit can't attempt to cast the same power twice.

The problem being, as Ond Angel told, to know what exactly is a psyker unit.
One of the 2 solutions causes a lot of problem, the other one don't.

Except for the fact that the rule in question doesn't even say 'psyker unit', it only says, the unit may not cast the same power more than once. Now, it seems intended that it's supposed to be referring to the psyker unit. But since it doesn't say that we don't have any written rules to support that intent. But whatever the case, the psyker rules are a mess RAW so it's best not to delve into them too hard.

chanceafs wrote:
Except for the fact that the rule in question doesn't even say 'psyker unit', it only says, the unit may not cast the same power more than once. Now, it seems intended that it's supposed to be referring to the psyker unit. But since it doesn't say that we don't have any written rules to support that intent.

Yeah, if you take only a portion of the sentence, and read it out of it's context :
"Assuming you have enough WC points, you can alternate back and forth between the same Psyker units in this way, but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase".

And it's even more clearer in the next page of the BRB :
"To manifest a psychic power, you will first need to select one of your psyker units. Then select a psychic power known to the selected unit and that the unit has not already attempted to manifest in this Psychic phase".

All underlined parts clearly refers to the same thing : psyker units.

 RabbitMaster wrote:

chanceafs wrote:
Except for the fact that the rule in question doesn't even say 'psyker unit', it only says, the unit may not cast the same power more than once. Now, it seems intended that it's supposed to be referring to the psyker unit. But since it doesn't say that we don't have any written rules to support that intent.

Yeah, if you take only a portion of the sentence, and read it out of it's context :
"Assuming you have enough WC points, you can alternate back and forth between the same Psyker units in this way, but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase".

And it's even more clearer in the next page of the BRB :
"To manifest a psychic power, you will first need to select one of your psyker units. Then select a psychic power known to the selected unit and that the unit has not already attempted to manifest in this Psychic phase".

All underlined parts clearly refers to the same thing : psyker units.

I happen to agree with you, I'm just pointing out that because they don't use that term continuously it will invariably lead to issues with the Rules Lawyers.

 RabbitMaster wrote:

And it's even more clearer in the next page of the BRB :
"To manifest a psychic power, you will first need to select one of your psyker units. Then select a psychic power known to the selected unit and that the unit has not already attempted to manifest in this Psychic phase".

All underlined parts clearly refers to the same thing : psyker units.

Y'know, with the way that's worded, I can't help but feel that you don't "lose" the powers known to that unit when it dies, thus if you had two Librarians in a unit with tactical marines, if one died, the other could cast either psyker's power still.

Also, even if the above is covered somewhere, doesn't that mean that if I have 5 level 1s and a level 4 in a unit, the level 4 may cast any power I generated with him, plus any power generated by the level 1s?

]select one of your psyker units

I might be missing something, it's just a thought since you quoted that.

 Ond Angel wrote:
Y'know, with the way that's worded, I can't help but feel that you don't "lose" the powers known to that unit when it dies, thus if you had two Librarians in a unit with tactical marines, if one died, the other could cast either psyker's power still.

The way the rules currently stand, it's not even certain that librarians joined to a tactical squad would be able to cast powers to begin with.

 insaniak wrote:

 Ond Angel wrote:
Y'know, with the way that's worded, I can't help but feel that you don't "lose" the powers known to that unit when it dies, thus if you had two Librarians in a unit with tactical marines, if one died, the other could cast either psyker's power still.

The way the rules currently stand, it's not even certain that librarians joined to a tactical squad would be able to cast powers to begin with.

Oh...
For the love of the Emperor...
-.-
WELL.
Let's hope they clear this up.

 Ond Angel wrote:

Also, even if the above is covered somewhere, doesn't that mean that if I have 5 level 1s and a level 4 in a unit, the level 4 may cast any power I generated with him, plus any power generated by the level 1s?

]select one of your psyker units

I might be missing something, it's just a thought since you quoted that.

It all depends of what a psyker unit is. Beside GW horrible wording, that's the heart of the problem in the end.
Let's take your example. You have a unit of 5 warlocks level 1 join by one farseer level 3 (I removed him 1 level to be closer to the reality ).

Do you have :
A/ 1 big psyker unit regrouping all those psyker models ?
or
B/ 6 individual psyker units despite the fact they are forming a single unit for all other non-psychic purpose?

As per page 22, 3rd paragraph, well it seems that solution A is the way to go. However, that cause a lot of problems.
For example, how many dices will that single psyker unit grant you at the start of the phase ? In other word, what is the mastery level of that psyker unit composed of models with different mastery levels ? The max/min/majority/other ? We have nothing on that rule-wise.
When this big psyker unit suffers a perils, who loses the wound ? Don't say the psyker that casted it, because the BRB is clear on the fact that psyker and psyker unit are synonymous (p22). So who in this big psyker unit ? Any psyker model of your choice ? (aka save the guy you prefer) Or worse... one of the non psyker guy ?

Anyway... there is a ton of problems like that with solution A (and basic RAW in this chapter). But yeah, in that case the level 4 can cast any power generated by the level 1s. In fact, the whole psyker unit can.

Solution B doesn't cause any problem at all. In fact, it's smooth and elegant in every way, except that it requires the players to understand that the word "unit" in "psyker unit" has a whole different meaning as the traditional "unit" that we are used to. But honestly, that's a small price to pay compared to the ton of problem solution A causes in addition to this one.

Here is the problem. GW, in a rare fit of clarity, gave us pretty explicit defintions/explanations of certain psyker terms. (ie. Psyker Unit)

So...yay...

Then they proceeded to write a bunch of rules in the psyker section that obviously ignore those defintions... so much so that the game breaks down in many ways if you try and follow them explicitly.

So.. not quite so yay....

Then they gave us another crystal clear rule (No psyker unit can attempt the same power more than once).... this rule makes perfect sense using the original definitions, but... we *know* those definitions are not being used correctly in the chapter. What we don't know is if this rule is another example of the terms being used incorrectly, or if this is one of the few places where the terms are used correctly.

So... even less yay...

coredump wrote:
Here is the problem. GW, in a rare fit of clarity, gave us pretty explicit defintions/explanations of certain psyker terms. (ie. Psyker Unit)

So...yay...

Then they proceeded to write a bunch of rules in the psyker section that obviously ignore those defintions... so much so that the game breaks down in many ways if you try and follow them explicitly.

So.. not quite so yay....

Then they gave us another crystal clear rule (No psyker unit can attempt the same power more than once).... this rule makes perfect sense using the original definitions, but... we *know* those definitions are not being used correctly in the chapter. What we don't know is if this rule is another example of the terms being used incorrectly, or if this is one of the few places where the terms are used correctly.

So... even less yay...

Basically if they had used any word other than unit when talking about a 'psyker unit' the rules would work perfectly, and there would be no issue determining which term they wanted to use at any given time because they are different words. But because they chose to use 'unit' and unit is already a term which comes with a lot of non-psyker baggage, the entire chapter falls apart.

chanceafs wrote:

coredump wrote:
Here is the problem. GW, in a rare fit of clarity, gave us pretty explicit defintions/explanations of certain psyker terms. (ie. Psyker Unit)

So...yay...

Then they proceeded to write a bunch of rules in the psyker section that obviously ignore those defintions... so much so that the game breaks down in many ways if you try and follow them explicitly.

So.. not quite so yay....

Then they gave us another crystal clear rule (No psyker unit can attempt the same power more than once).... this rule makes perfect sense using the original definitions, but... we *know* those definitions are not being used correctly in the chapter. What we don't know is if this rule is another example of the terms being used incorrectly, or if this is one of the few places where the terms are used correctly.

So... even less yay...

Basically if they had used any word other than unit when talking about a 'psyker unit' the rules would work perfectly, and there would be no issue determining which term they wanted to use at any given time because they are different words. But because they chose to use 'unit' and unit is already a term which comes with a lot of non-psyker baggage, the entire chapter falls apart.

Just think though, if they'd said "model", then we'd probably have people saying "Why didn't they say unit, it would've been so much easier! GRRR. IC are units, but they're not when in a unit...? What? More bad writing by Gee-Dubs!"
Or something to that effect.
Basically, even if they'd worded it so we could tell what the intent was, I'm sure we, as a player base, would find fault with the rule still.

 Ond Angel wrote:

chanceafs wrote:

coredump wrote:
Here is the problem. GW, in a rare fit of clarity, gave us pretty explicit defintions/explanations of certain psyker terms. (ie. Psyker Unit)

So...yay...

Then they proceeded to write a bunch of rules in the psyker section that obviously ignore those defintions... so much so that the game breaks down in many ways if you try and follow them explicitly.

So.. not quite so yay....

Then they gave us another crystal clear rule (No psyker unit can attempt the same power more than once).... this rule makes perfect sense using the original definitions, but... we *know* those definitions are not being used correctly in the chapter. What we don't know is if this rule is another example of the terms being used incorrectly, or if this is one of the few places where the terms are used correctly.

So... even less yay...

Basically if they had used any word other than unit when talking about a 'psyker unit' the rules would work perfectly, and there would be no issue determining which term they wanted to use at any given time because they are different words. But because they chose to use 'unit' and unit is already a term which comes with a lot of non-psyker baggage, the entire chapter falls apart.

Just think though, if they'd said "model", then we'd probably have people saying "Why didn't they say unit, it would've been so much easier! GRRR. IC are units, but they're not when in a unit...? What? More bad writing by Gee-Dubs!"
Or something to that effect.
Basically, even if they'd worded it so we could tell what the intent was, I'm sure we, as a player base, would find fault with the rule still.

That's my point... instead of using a word that is already very front-loaded in 40K rules... unit, model, etc. They should have used a word that isn't in the 40K lexicon already, something like, psychic group, or psychic focus, or hell, call it psychic derp for all I care. Just make it something that can be referred to distinctly and can only mean a psyker/psychic vehicle/unit with brotherhood of psykers etc. And thus that new term could make the whole chapter simpler by using that term when they wanted to, and using unit when they wanted to refer to a 40K 'Unit'.

chanceafs wrote:

 Ond Angel wrote:

chanceafs wrote:

coredump wrote:
Here is the problem. GW, in a rare fit of clarity, gave us pretty explicit defintions/explanations of certain psyker terms. (ie. Psyker Unit)

So...yay...

Then they proceeded to write a bunch of rules in the psyker section that obviously ignore those defintions... so much so that the game breaks down in many ways if you try and follow them explicitly.

So.. not quite so yay....

Then they gave us another crystal clear rule (No psyker unit can attempt the same power more than once).... this rule makes perfect sense using the original definitions, but... we *know* those definitions are not being used correctly in the chapter. What we don't know is if this rule is another example of the terms being used incorrectly, or if this is one of the few places where the terms are used correctly.

So... even less yay...

Basically if they had used any word other than unit when talking about a 'psyker unit' the rules would work perfectly, and there would be no issue determining which term they wanted to use at any given time because they are different words. But because they chose to use 'unit' and unit is already a term which comes with a lot of non-psyker baggage, the entire chapter falls apart.

Just think though, if they'd said "model", then we'd probably have people saying "Why didn't they say unit, it would've been so much easier! GRRR. IC are units, but they're not when in a unit...? What? More bad writing by Gee-Dubs!"
Or something to that effect.
Basically, even if they'd worded it so we could tell what the intent was, I'm sure we, as a player base, would find fault with the rule still.

That's my point... instead of using a word that is already very front-loaded in 40K rules... unit, model, etc. They should have used a word that isn't in the 40K lexicon already, something like, psychic group, or psychic focus, or hell, call it psychic derp for all I care. Just make it something that can be referred to distinctly and can only mean a psyker/psychic vehicle/unit with brotherhood of psykers etc. And thus that new term could make the whole chapter simpler by using that term when they wanted to, and using unit when they wanted to refer to a 40K 'Unit'.

Ah.
I understand now.
This would have been much better, I do agree.

Well... the rulebook tells us that the terms "psyker" and "psyker unit" are synonymous. So technically, when reading one we can substitute it by the other.

And if you replace every "psyker unit" by "psyker" everywhere in the rules, suddenly it's almost crystal clear.
Except that crappy definition that even GW don't use correctly ><

But still, it makes way more sense to have 1 problem rather than a dozen.

 RabbitMaster wrote:
Well... the rulebook tells us that the terms "psyker" and "psyker unit" are synonymous. So technically, when reading one we can substitute it by the other..

Sure,. Except that they also define them both as referring specifically to units.

That's the whole problem.

I know :-(

But either way, RAW is screwed and there is problems with the rules as they are. Sadly we can't really count on GW to solve the problem in the near future.

So either we stick with this crappy definition and there is at least a dozen problems with the rest of the psychic rules that need to be addressed because of it.

Or we only address a single thing - this *ù$^ definition that we know is crappy - and suddenly every other rules in the psychic phase runs smoothly.


And well... the simpler the better. Being parsimonious is almost always better when faced with rules problems IMHO.

Except replacing 'psyker unit' with 'psyker' doesn't fix anything at all, because it is still referring to a unit instead of a model.


The fix is to change the listed definitions at the start of the psychic phase rules section. Effectively:
"The terms 'psyker' and 'psyker unit' refer to any model with the Psyker or Psychic Pilot rule, or any unit with the Brotherhood of x rule.'

You still run into a small issue with an IC psyker joined to a Brotherhood unit, but other than that as far as I can think in my early-morning coffee-deprived state, the psychic phase now more or less works.

That's exactly what I meant by saying "Or we only address a single thing - this *ù$^ definition that we know is crappy" =)

Either we fix 1 problem (this definition) and it fixes almost everything, or we stick with it and there is multiple issues all over the psychic rules because of it.

Sorry if it wasn't clear ^^