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Codex Imperialis says of servitors, "Many servitors are adapted from artificially cultured drone bodies; others are mind-wiped humans who have committed some terrible crime." Codex: Space Marines (5th Edition) says of [Chapter] servitors, "Some are grown from human gene-cells in artificial nutrient. Others are failed neophytes, civilian criminals or fugitives from Chapter law who have been mind-wiped and lobotomised so that their flesh may serve anew." Then you have things like the Afriel Strain, whilst not 'pure' clones are created using the DNA of the Imperium's greatest warriors.

As to the topic of are Space Marines human then emphatically I say yes. Biologically modified humans but humans none-the-less. I never understood why people describe them as eunuchs as there is no hint that they have their genitalia removed but we do know that part of their psycho-indoctrination is designed so that they have no sexual desire so that they cannot be manipulated by the promise of sex (the novel Eye of Terror has a section about this). Space Marines may well be infertile due to the implants they receive or the life-long chemo-therapy that they may require in order to not reject their implants but the most obvious reason as to why Space Marines do not father children is that every second of their lives is spent either at war or in preparation to be at war and they mentally conditioned to have no thoughts or desire for family and children although in various novels a Space Marine might well have a rare moment of regret that such a life is denied them; Uriel Ventris in the novel Dead Sky Black Sun sees as a vision of his life as an agri-worker on Calth with a family for example. Amorous Space Wolves do put this theory to the test though even if the females in question did turn out to be Eldar!

Even so, Marines do reproduce after a fashion and their method could possibly be described as parasitic. Space Marines create all of the organs necessary to create more Space Marines within themselves via the Progenoid Gland. They then seek out suitable hosts and implant them with these organs thus creating more Space Marines. In its own way that is reproduction.

Oh my god, so much posts.

there is no real world equivalent to such a rapid and sudden change in genome in a single individual in a single generation. Is it a new species, or is it a large insane mutation that results in infertility with other members of its (former) species.

Grow a cat eye, in a cat's face on a cat's body. Just find a cat that has an eye. Cut the cat's eye out of the cat. sew it into your thigh with a blood supply.

That's how you make a space marine! except instead of a cat's eye it's a kidney and instead of a cat it is an angel that you made in a lab on the moon.

Why in god's name do you you not understand that it is a regular guy with someone else's organs.

It is a case of artificial genetic chimerism. Tell me which part of "space marines are genetic chimerae" means they don't have the same genes anymore.

 Psienesis wrote:

They still have their own genetics, can't change that. They have additional organs, not different ones. The heart, stomach, lungs, intestines, liver and kidneys are all their own, born with them. The third point? What, you saying a professional strongman who can lift cars is not human? Finally, it has never been proven they are incapable, just lack desire.

They have a whole lot of extra organs that no human being is born with. They can spit acid, and they can devour parts of a sentient being's body and gain memories and genetic comprehension of it. That's just two of them.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine#.VAds_VduXbY

And, yes, you *can* change genetics. That's the whole point behind geneseed implantation and the primogen glands.

That doesn't change their DNA, unless you seriously would suggest a man with a pig's liver is no longer a human if you're asinine enough to reap genetic material from the transplanted organ. But no, they are still genetically human, transplants wouldn't change that. The only thing that is posthuman in 40k are Tech Priests with barely any flesh left at all.

pelicaniforce wrote:

Grow a cat eye, in a cat's face on a cat's body. Just find a cat that has an eye. Cut the cat's eye out of the cat. sew it into your thigh with a blood supply.

That's how you make a space marine! except instead of a cat's eye it's a kidney and instead of a cat it is an angel that you made in a lab on the moon.

Just wanted to say, totally sig-worthy. +1

Gogsnik made a pretty good point. I was mostly basing my assumptions off of Pre heresy World Eaters and Death Guard who were always pretty inhuman from all the augmentations and less than reliable gene seed.

 Psienesis wrote:

Growing organs is more difficult than cloning people. If they can do something as complex as that, then it would be easy. Cloning is "stem-cell tech".

Then why are we capable of doing one but not the other in the modern era?

We can grow organs via stem-cells. We have not yet successfully cloned someone.

Because cloning human beings is illegal as gak. In practice however it'd be fairly easy to clone a human being in real life, especially considering how widespread female humans of age are on the planet. No different than a surrogate womb.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
Gogsnik made a pretty good point. I was mostly basing my assumptions off of Pre heresy World Eaters and Death Guard who were always pretty inhuman from all the augmentations and less than reliable gene seed.

If you want mutant Astartes, take it up with the Black Dragons. They make the Space Wolves look normal.

pelicaniforce wrote:
Oh my god, so much posts.

there is no real world equivalent to such a rapid and sudden change in genome in a single individual in a single generation. Is it a new species, or is it a large insane mutation that results in infertility with other members of its (former) species.

Grow a cat eye, in a cat's face on a cat's body. Just find a cat that has an eye. Cut the cat's eye out of the cat. sew it into your thigh with a blood supply.

That's how you make a space marine! except instead of a cat's eye it's a kidney and instead of a cat it is an angel that you made in a lab on the moon.

Why in god's name do you you not understand that it is a regular guy with someone else's organs.

It is a case of artificial genetic chimerism. Tell me which part of "space marines are genetic chimerae" means they don't have the same genes anymore.

then that would mean that the gene seed is/are the organs being implanted.
Gene seed from my knowledge is the modification (whether by adding, destroying, modifying etc) of genetic material that allows a space marine to accept these implants and allow them to function properly without drugs.

the whole purpose of the gene seed is to accommodate for the implants. if anyone could receive them then there would be a lot more space marines, and a lot less dead initiates.

Psienesis wrote:Neither, they are Devo!

On the aspect of vat-grown servitors...

Many Servitors are more machine than flesh (while others are the opposite). Are we sure that Lexi is not suggesting that the more-machine ones simply vat-grow the brainmatter required to act as the CPU, installing it into a pre-fabricated machine body after installing the required engrammatic programs for its function directly into the brain?

The reason I bring that up is because the Lexi article on Servitors is taking some serious liberties with its sources, and is missing rather a lot of information about the miscellaneous servitors appearing in other sources.

We know that, at minimum, a Servitor requires a brain. Being able to "vat-grow" a fully-formed and functional human brain on its own is a significant feat of biotechnology, much beyond what it would take to grow a human. Furthermore, the additional mention of vat-growing people in the Culexus page suggests it's based on something. I really can't be bothered to read every tech-thrall entry in the 30k books to look for mentions of vat-growth, though. Even ignoring this, I would be very surprised if cloning wasn't possible in 40k, given the great technological power of the setting. Adding in Imperial "vat-growth" of specific body parts, along with the existence of the Magos Biologis (who would be a bit crap if they couldn't even clone a human) and the possibility that Servitors and their like are vat-growth, it seems doubtful that it doesn't exist.

Bronzefists42 wrote:I was talking in a more spiritual sense, like they lack what tends to define humans the most i.e. empathy, fear, sympathy, etc.

That's not really any sort of definition. Are Kriegsmen of the DKoK human? I'd say yes, considering that they are humans.

Sledgehammer wrote:
I will use an analogy. lets say i have a Volks Wagon Bug and i keep putting more and more modifications on it. these modifications are internal, external, performance increasing, and aesthetic. at what point does the bug no longer become a bug? The base of the car is a bug, but it has a new engine, a new look, and a new profile. whether it is a bug or not is up to the individuals discretion.

what is ultimately true is that you first need a bug in order to make the modifications as you wouldn't be able to put the modifications on the base of any other car.

the geneseed is the modification that in my opinion makes the bug essentially a new car.

That analogy does not work, because it would have to define a Bug on parameters it does not have an equivalent to (DNA). Take the previous example of a Tech-Priest, or any of their not-robots. There can be almost nothing left of them that is human, but they're still human. A brain in a jar at the centre of an enormous mech is still a human.

pelicaniforce wrote:So wait, you're saying that a human with a pacemaker is... what, exactly? Still a human?

Yes. A human with a full-body prosthesis is still a human, too! You might want to fix the quotes in your post, though.

EDIT: Okay, so about a million posts that happened while I was writing this just said everything I wanted to say, and more. Definitely loved the cat eye thing. Perfect analogy.

EDIT2: Sledgehammer, the gene-seed is the genetic template for the organs. It's the (artificial, as in man-made) DNA of the super-organs. After using the gene-seed to grow the organs, the organs are implanted into the Space Marine. The Progenoid of the Space Marine (one of these organs) takes materials from the Marine's body and uses it to make more gene-seed. This is then harvested and used to make more organs. Repeat forever.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
first article bottom of second paragraph "Another, called env, makes knobs on the outer surface of the virus, that allow it to latch onto cells and invade them. And a third, called pol, makes an enzyme that inserts the virus’s genes into its host cell’s DNA."

article 2 start of paragraph 4 'Viruses have insinuated themselves into the genome of our ancestors for hundreds of millions of years. They typically have gotten there by infecting eggs or sperm, inserting their own DNA into ours. There are 100,000 known fragments of viruses in the human genome, making up over 8% of our DNA. "

Are you trying to tell me... that viruses change dna? Yeah, that is what viruses do.

Are you saying that means I can point a virus at you, and it will change all your cells into space marine cells?'

That is specifically not what the article says.

" On rare occasion, a virus infected a sperm or egg and managed to end up in an embryo. Every new cell in the embryo inherited the retrovirus DNA implanted in its genome. And then the embryo grew up into an adult, "

what means is that, if you were right that space marines are genetically different after they are implanted than when they are mortals, you'd have to implant the gene-seed into his mother's ovaries.

No. Space Marines are mutants biologically, and inhuman psychologically.

 Melissia wrote:
No. Space Marines are mutants biologically, and inhuman psychologically.

Except they're as much of a biological mutant a person who just underwent an organ transplant. Are you going to walk into a hospital, find everyone who's gotten an organ transplant and scream MUTANT! at them?

@ frozen ocean

genetically the tech priest has not changed, but his body has. he no longer is anything but a brain in jar that controls mechanical equipment.

on a genetic level (what little biological parts remain of him) he is human, but in my opinion he can't be human anymore because he lacks all of the physical attributes that go along with being human.

The bug analogy works here also because the base (his genetic aspect of humanity) is the same, but he has changed so much that i personally would no longer call him one. So it is up to each individual to make the call.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
No. Space Marines are mutants biologically, and inhuman psychologically.

Except they're as much of a biological mutant a person who

Underwent massive genetic and biological change to give them features the human body does not have, and which allows them to do and withstand things that no human can.

The assertion of "well they're just like transplants" gets a big "nope" as a result of this.


Keep in mind, by this same assertion, I would argue that many upper-level mechanicus personnel are, to use a cliche phrase, more machine than man.

The definition of species is scientific, and so is not up for personal definition. If you want to talk about the definition of "human", which is in the same vein as "what is intelligence?" and "what is thought?", then you can have an opinion on it. We're not talking about that, though.

pelicaniforce wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
first article bottom of second paragraph "Another, called env, makes knobs on the outer surface of the virus, that allow it to latch onto cells and invade them. And a third, called pol, makes an enzyme that inserts the virus’s genes into its host cell’s DNA."

article 2 start of paragraph 4 'Viruses have insinuated themselves into the genome of our ancestors for hundreds of millions of years. They typically have gotten there by infecting eggs or sperm, inserting their own DNA into ours. There are 100,000 known fragments of viruses in the human genome, making up over 8% of our DNA. "

Are you trying to tell me... that viruses change dna? Yeah, that is what viruses do.

Are you saying that means I can point a virus at you, and it will change all your cells into space marine cells?'

That is specifically not what the article says.

" On rare occasion, a virus infected a sperm or egg and managed to end up in an embryo. Every new cell in the embryo inherited the retrovirus DNA implanted in its genome. And then the embryo grew up into an adult, "

what means is that, if you were right that space marines are genetically different after they are implanted than when they are mortals, you'd have to implant the gene-seed into his mother's ovaries.

of course a real virus does not turn you into a space marine or cause instant modifications that drastically change your genetics.

geneseed does that though. "Gene-seed is the colloquial term used amongst the Adeptus Astartes for the genetic material that allows for the creation of the super human Space Marines. The gene-seed is actually those germ cells and viral machines that have been genetically-engineered to develop into the various organs that are implanted into a normal human adolescent male to transform him into a Space Marine." taken from here.

 Melissia wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
No. Space Marines are mutants biologically, and inhuman psychologically.

Except they're as much of a biological mutant a person who

Underwent massive genetic and biological change to give them features the human body does not have, and which allows them to do and withstand things that no human can.

The assertion of "well they're just like transplants" gets a big "nope" as a result of this.


Keep in mind, by this same assertion, I would argue that many upper-level mechanicus personnel are, to use a cliche phrase, more machine than man.

As stated previously, the definition of a species is scientific. Space Marines are human, as they are not so alterted they are turned into a sub-species or a whole new species. Ogryns and Ratlings are examples of actual "posthuman" entities in the sense that they are a new species. Space Marines on the other hand are just an extreme example of organ transplantation which does not alter the base DNA, meaning they are still human.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

geneseed does that though. "Gene-seed is the colloquial term used amongst the Adeptus Astartes for the genetic material that allows for the creation of the super human Space Marines. The gene-seed is actually those germ cells and viral machines that have been genetically-engineered to develop into the various organs that are implanted into a normal human adolescent male to transform him into a Space Marine." taken from here.

You're missing the meaning of that quote. It states that the "gene-seed ... develop[s] into the various organs that are implanted into a normal human". You don't inject a human with gene-seed to turn them into a Space Marine, you culture the gene-seed to make the organs, which you then implant into a human to make them a Space Marine.

Your assertion that space marines are homo sapiens sapiens doesn't necessarily bear out.

And if Space Marine organs didn't alter their DNA, the organs wouldn't function. The body operates based off of its genetic structure. This is not a problem for ACTUAL transplants in real life because they add no additional features; but it IS a problem for the organs that allow a person to do something that they genetically cannot do.

 Melissia wrote:
Your assertion that space marines are homo sapiens sapiens doesn't necessarily bear out.

And if Space Marine organs didn't alter their DNA, the organs wouldn't function. The body operates based off of its genetic structure. This is not a problem for ACTUAL transplants in real life because they add no additional features; but it IS a problem for the organs that allow a person to do something that they genetically cannot do.

To be fair, there are dogs that are brown, hairless and shorter than my knee, and dogs that are big enough for me to ride, very haired and black, yet they are both dogs.

What exactly defines a new species?

I am not sure if the reproduction argument holds given the synthetic nature of the Marine ascension.

 Melissia wrote:
Your assertion that space marines are homo sapiens sapiens doesn't necessarily bear out.

And if Space Marine organs didn't alter their DNA, the organs wouldn't function. The body operates based off of its genetic structure. This is not a problem for ACTUAL transplants in real life because they add no additional features; but it IS a problem for the organs that allow a person to do something that they genetically cannot do.

this.

People can't produce acid and we can't magically implant someone with a snake's poison sack and expect it to work.
You need to genetically change or alter the body in order to allow for continued sustaining of a formerly foreign organ that it did not know how to operate.

Hell, most people reject organs from humans. this is why so many initiates die, because their genetics either can't take the geneseed or their bodies reject the implants.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
No. Space Marines are mutants biologically, and inhuman psychologically.

Except they're as much of a biological mutant a person who just underwent an organ transplant. Are you going to walk into a hospital, find everyone who's gotten an organ transplant and scream MUTANT! at them?

Yes. They have sullied the Sacred Human Form with their third lung and second heart.

A body rejecting organs has nothing to do with its "features", and instead to do with antigens on the cellular surface. I think it's fairly safe to presume that anything specifically created to be implanted into the human body would be designed with this in mind. This would probably mean that the artificial organs have no antigens whatsoever, or some other means of avoiding the body's immune system.

EDIT:

Sledgehammer wrote:You need to genetically change or alter the body in order to allow for continued sustaining of a formerly foreign organ that it did not know how to operate.

No, you don't.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
A body rejecting organs has nothing to do with its "features", and instead to do with antigens on the cellular surface. I think it's fairly safe to presume that anything specifically created to be implanted into the human body would be designed with this in mind. This would probably mean that the artificial organs have no antigens whatsoever, or some other means of avoiding the body's immune system.

Then why does geneseed fail 100% of the time in female subjects?

Some nonsense to do with the growth not working. Female immune systems aren't different to male ones, so it's not a case of organ rejection as you would get with real-life organ transplants.

Then it has to be something on the genetic level, as it's (as you say) not an immune system issue.

Psienesis wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
A body rejecting organs has nothing to do with its "features", and instead to do with antigens on the cellular surface. I think it's fairly safe to presume that anything specifically created to be implanted into the human body would be designed with this in mind. This would probably mean that the artificial organs have no antigens whatsoever, or some other means of avoiding the body's immune system.

Then why does geneseed fail 100% of the time in female subjects?

Isn't it like 99,97%?

So femmarines are possible theoretically, but only theoretically.

Psienesis wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
No. Space Marines are mutants biologically, and inhuman psychologically.

Except they're as much of a biological mutant a person who just underwent an organ transplant. Are you going to walk into a hospital, find everyone who's gotten an organ transplant and scream MUTANT! at them?

Yes. They have sullied the Sacred Human Form with their third lung and second heart.

By the Emperor's design, I might add.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
People can't produce acid

Coughcoughstomachacidcoughcough

 Psienesis wrote:
Then it has to be something on the genetic level, as it's (as you say) not an immune system issue.

Yet as has been pointed out before, neither are female genes. In fact, women in reality should be more stable given the extra X chromosome.

Actually, not genetic. I believe the official GW take on the subject was hormonal.

The real reason is probably that The Emperor wanted to surround himself with a space army full exclusively of men with rock-hard abs.

EDIT: And thank you, Wyzilla. You know, I didn't realise it was you until I wrote this sentence and looked at your name. I usually identify people based on their avatar.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Your assertion that space marines are homo sapiens sapiens doesn't necessarily bear out.

And if Space Marine organs didn't alter their DNA, the organs wouldn't function. The body operates based off of its genetic structure. This is not a problem for ACTUAL transplants in real life because they add no additional features; but it IS a problem for the organs that allow a person to do something that they genetically cannot do.

this.

People can't produce acid and we can't magically implant someone with a snake's poison sack and expect it to work.
You need to genetically change or alter the body in order to allow for continued sustaining of a formerly foreign organ that it did not know how to operate.

Hell, most people reject organs from humans. this is why so many initiates die, because their genetics either can't take the geneseed or their bodies reject the implants.

Actually we do, only instead of acid for dissolving food in our mouths, we secrete a base. Our stomach however does secrete acid, and damn potent stuff at that.