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But with such a narrow definition of blank slate, who in gaming qualifies as one? What did one know of Mario by just playing SMB? Or Samus and just the original Metroid? Mega Man? Further characterization came from outside those original games. I would classify these example (in the original games) as blank slates.

 daedalus wrote:
Huh. This thread went tangential overnight.

So... would you guys consider the Nameless One to be a blank slate? I would say almost by definition he may be the only character that truly is.

NO I wouldn't consider the nameless one to be a true blank slate, he is somewhere in between blank slate and middle ground.

 AdeptSister wrote:
But with such a narrow definition of blank slate, who in gaming qualifies as one? What did one know of Mario by just playing SMB? Or Samus and just the original Metroid? Mega Man? Further characterization came from outside those original games. I would classify these example (in the original games) as blank slates.

In the original game Yes I agree with that but overtime they are expanded into something bigger

I feel like we have at least two different definitions of what a 'blank slate' is here.

Yes we do.

I define my world around me to better fit me. I do not like standard definitions, unless for arguments sake. In this case blank slate means no background and no history, and the characters determines everything.

In terms of gameplay and mechanics thats what it means in gaming.

For books and reading it means something else.

See the problem is that you can't use universal definitions it doesn't work and can't fit everything.

I mean I can't call Dear Esther a game, I don't even think it should be consider it, and its not an insult or a problem, I would call it an virtual interactive experience. Because there are many things that make dear esther a true game. And thats not a bad thing.

Having a blank character is not bad. And it never has been, But I don't like it being the standard for game characters currently.

This all started out because I think there should strong female characters in games. And not a choose your own character path.

For games to move anywhere in this representation of women they have to have more strong able women in main character roles in action games and across the board. They shouldn't be the default but neither should the white guy be the default. We need to mix it up a little and have a variety in games.

And then the experience will grow as a whole. And games will become better because of that.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
According to your definition, your example of Skyrim is not a blank slate.

The character has no background history, no personality, and changes each and everytime someone plays that character.
The player determines all actions.

Samus Aran is not an example of this because of her background history, and personality. And her personality and ways of going about things do not change.

I feel like we have at least two different definitions of what a 'blank slate' is here.

 daedalus wrote:
Huh. This thread went tangential overnight.

So... would you guys consider the Nameless One to be a blank slate? I would say almost by definition he may be the only character that truly is.

Not by the end of the game.

No? I mean doesn't the nameless one have a long reaching past before you play them? Also by the end of the game they end up well defined based on your choices.

 daedalus wrote:
Huh. This thread went tangential overnight.

So... would you guys consider the Nameless One to be a blank slate? I would say almost by definition he may be the only character that truly is.

From Planescape Torment?

Well I guess at the beginning of the game he is. But then as you go through and find characters who knew you from previous lives and discover what effects you had previously had on the worlds around you, you discover that there's another thousand layers underneath the slate you're currently writing on.

He's certainly no more a blank slate character than Metroid. Hell, in the first Metroid, you knew less about Samus Aran than you know about The Nameless One in Planescape: Torment, considering both at the start of the game.

Is the PC from Nethack a blanck state? Also why are we keeping this off-topic discussion so heated ?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Is the PC from Nethack a blanck state? Also why are we keeping this off-topic discussion so heated ?

Because this a tangent from when I said the female character should be fixed to have a more expounded effect on gaming. And I think that would be the best interest.

Others say a blank slate would be better, but I disagree. I do not want it to be an option. I want it to be mandatory in some games that you have to play as the girl.

And it goes beyond being just htis decision the player makes. If we are going to have customizable genders it should affect your game. And it should recognize it other than changing pronouns.

Personally, I think having “blank state character” which have their gender customizable and having characters with set genders that are split equally between male and female is the way to go. Is that not right to someone?

Pretty much all of you hit upon the point though. Are you still a blank slate even if you seemed to be a blank slate at the beginning, but went through experiences even as of beginning the game?

Even if you argue that ANY character, hell, let's talk about Minecraft Guy. Minecraft Guy simply cannot have a backstory prior to you starting the game. You wake up somewhere on a world, and then you start breaking things to make tools. You're now Minecraft Guy, Toolmaker and Builder. Do your (the players) actions inside the game define you (the avatar), thus invalidating the condition of a blank slate, or, as an utter puppet with no persona beyond being victim to heteronomous force inflicted upon him by the player, are you (the avatar) always a tabula rasa regardless?

Basically this is a tangent based off of Asherian's view that women should always justify their existence whereas he never requires the same justification from men.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Personally, I think having “blank state character” which have their gender customizable and having characters with set genders that are split equally between male and female is the way to go. Is that not right to someone?

But that doesn't change any representation of the female character.

You still need an equal representation yes, but the thing is that most people will still play as a male character.

The box art will show a male character. Not the female character.

That doesn't work at all it will not change the games industry.

If you have a strong female character as the playable character you change the industry. We need a well developed character that is not customizable, someone like duke nukuem but in female form or someone like the call of duty games except its with a woman as the main playable character. DONE RIGHT.

 Melissia wrote:
Basically this is a tangent based off of Asherian's view that women should always justify their existence whereas he never requires the same justification from men.

-.-

Comments like these are why I do not read your comments fully.

I think there should be a justification that the character and gender exists. It needs to have more meaning than being able to pick your gender. And say yeah I am female, and that doesn't do anything to change the game.

People should react differently, because of different societal pressures affect people differently.

They should have confounded disagreements. If I am a female and I hear someone cat calling me, you beat I want to kick his ass. But I want that to happen, I want them to address that. Not just theres the hero, (Fill in gender pronoun here) is a great person!

Shouldn't there be more of an effect of being female in the game other than just a change of pronouns?!?!?

I mean come on!

Yeah, well, I am not exactly sure if that was actually his view or if he was not explaining himself very good. Hence why I am asking the question .

 Melissia wrote:
He's certainly no more a blank slate character than Metroid. Hell, in the first Metroid, you knew less about Samus Aran than you know about The Nameless One in Planescape: Torment, considering both at the start of the game.

But that's the interesting part about TNO. He doesn't know he's not a blank slate, so from the main character's point of view, he is. He doesn't remember anything about his past, and he still doesn't know anything about himself until after you at least get Morte to read the note on his back.

Contrast with Metroid/Skyrim/Whatever, where presumably there were events that occurred in the person's life to get them to that point and shape them, and they're aware of them, but you aren't.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Personally, I think having “blank state character” which have their gender customizable and having characters with set genders that are split equally between male and female is the way to go. Is that not right to someone?

But that doesn't change any representation of the female character.

You still need an equal representation yes, but the thing is that most people will still play as a male character.

The box art will show a male character. Not the female character.

That doesn't work at all it will not change the games industry.

If you have a strong female character as the playable character you change the industry. We need a well developed character that is not customizable, someone like duke nukuem but in female form or someone like the call of duty games except its with a woman as the main playable character. DONE RIGHT.

Have a reversible front cover like Mass Effect 3. So people who wanted Femshep on the cover could have her and those who wanted Maleshep could have him. Front cover problem solved.

 Asherian Command wrote:
You still need an equal representation yes, but the thing is that most people will still play as a male character.

Who cares about that when everybody who wants to play it as a she will be able to?

 Asherian Command wrote:
The box art will show a male character. Not the female character.

Not necessarily. You can do dual box. You can show both. You can show only the female version.


I mean, I am pretty sure that what I described would make me, and Melissia, and about anyone happy. So, you may feel it will not change the industry, but it will definitely fulfill the goal we are aiming for.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
You still need an equal representation yes, but the thing is that most people will still play as a male character.

Who cares about that when everybody who wants to play it as a she will be able to?

 Asherian Command wrote:
The box art will show a male character. Not the female character.

Not necessarily. You can do dual box. You can show both. You can show only the female version.


I mean, I am pretty sure that what I described would make me, and Melissia, and about anyone happy. So, you may feel it will not change the industry, but it will definitely fulfill the goal we are aiming for.

Problem with that. Where would the female be placed on the front or on the back.

I want it on the front and the male on the back.

Ohhh radicallllll

There should be more reactions to it than just you playing as a chick, characters should react different to you being female. Other than you being able to bang men or turn lesibain.

Have a reversible front cover like Mass Effect 3. So people who wanted Femshep on the cover could have her and those who wanted Maleshep could have him. Front cover problem solved.

That won't change anything. People would only be confused by that fact the official box art should be showing a woman.

The cinematic of the game should show a woman not a guy.

That is the problem with the industry.

They are more willing to show a man than a woman on the front page.

They usually hide that fact.

If you want more representation start showing more women in male roles in cinematics.

 daedalus wrote:
Pretty much all of you hit upon the point though. Are you still a blank slate even if you seemed to be a blank slate at the beginning, but went through experiences even as of beginning the game?

Even if you argue that ANY character, hell, let's talk about Minecraft Guy. Minecraft Guy simply cannot have a backstory prior to you starting the game. You wake up somewhere on a world, and then you start breaking things to make tools. You're now Minecraft Guy, Toolmaker and Builder. Do your (the players) actions inside the game define you (the avatar), thus invalidating the condition of a blank slate, or, as an utter puppet with no persona beyond being victim to heteronomous force inflicted upon him by the player, are you (the avatar) always a tabula rasa regardless?

We use blank slat to talk about when the dev leaves the character undefined. One of the rules of RP no player character can avoid character development. It's guaranteed. Like death, taxes or a new CoD game. The player will always characterize the character they play.

nomotog wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
Pretty much all of you hit upon the point though. Are you still a blank slate even if you seemed to be a blank slate at the beginning, but went through experiences even as of beginning the game?

Even if you argue that ANY character, hell, let's talk about Minecraft Guy. Minecraft Guy simply cannot have a backstory prior to you starting the game. You wake up somewhere on a world, and then you start breaking things to make tools. You're now Minecraft Guy, Toolmaker and Builder. Do your (the players) actions inside the game define you (the avatar), thus invalidating the condition of a blank slate, or, as an utter puppet with no persona beyond being victim to heteronomous force inflicted upon him by the player, are you (the avatar) always a tabula rasa regardless?

We use blank slat to talk about when the dev leaves the character undefined. One of the rules of RP no player character can avoid character development. It's guaranteed. Like death, taxes or a new CoD game. The player will always characterize the character they play.

The character starts as a blank slate. a Character is one that does not require the player. They will always be a character even without the player. The player does not make the character, the character makes the character

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Personally, I think having “blank state character” which have their gender customizable and having characters with set genders that are split equally between male and female is the way to go. Is that not right to someone?

But that doesn't change any representation of the female character.

You still need an equal representation yes, but the thing is that most people will still play as a male character.

The box art will show a male character. Not the female character.

That doesn't work at all it will not change the games industry.

If you have a strong female character as the playable character you change the industry. We need a well developed character that is not customizable, someone like duke nukuem but in female form or someone like the call of duty games except its with a woman as the main playable character. DONE RIGHT.

Have a reversible front cover like Mass Effect 3. So people who wanted Femshep on the cover could have her and those who wanted Maleshep could have him. Front cover problem solved.

Oh fun story here. When I went to gamestop to pick up mass effect. Every cover was femshep. I know they come with maleshep on the outside, so I guess someone went through and flipped them all.

It was a better cover anyway.

 Melissia wrote:
It was a better cover anyway.

Agreed.

But I think it should be on the front not shammed onto the back of the box.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
It was a better cover anyway.

Agreed.

But I think it should be on the front not shammed onto the back of the box.

Inside cover. Femshep was on both sides when flipped out though.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Problem with that. Where would the female be placed on the front or on the back.

All of them in the front, Golden Axe style :

 Asherian Command wrote:
The cinematic of the game should show a woman not a guy.

Or just use cutscene using the game engine that use your actual character. Or have the cinematic be first person view. Or any of the dozens of other possible solutions .

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Problem with that. Where would the female be placed on the front or on the back.

All of them in the front, Golden Axe style :

Spoiler:

 Asherian Command wrote:
The cinematic of the game should show a woman not a guy.

Or just use cutscene using the game engine that use your actual character. Or have the cinematic be first person view. Or any of the dozens of other possible solutions .

You can't show the actual character, most cutscenes are pre-rendered. You can't do that sadly, if you want a cinematic like blizzards or in a similar vein you can't put random character x into it.

You can do an ingame cinematic but then again those run into problems

first person view does not work in cinematic world. You can hide the characters face but yet again that is hard to do and inconvenient


And yes you can have the two on the front of the box art. AS Long as both are neutral poses..

 Asherian Command wrote:
You can't show the actual character, most cutscenes are pre-rendered. You can't do that sadly, if you want a cinematic like blizzards or in a similar vein you can't put random character x into it.

Blizzard is actually a good example of using both pre-rendered cinematics and in-game cutscene using the game engine.

 Asherian Command wrote:
first person view does not work in cinematic world.

Well, depends. Sometime it can work. Sometime you can use some other device to not show the character. Sometime there will not even be a cinematic to begin with.
I think it is fairly possible to have both games with blank state customizable characters where you decide the gender and games with fixed-gender characters.

 Asherian Command wrote:

I think there should be a justification that the character and gender exists. It needs to have more meaning than being able to pick your gender. And say yeah I am female, and that doesn't do anything to change the game.

People should react differently, because of different societal pressures affect people differently.

They should have confounded disagreements. If I am a female and I hear someone cat calling me, you beat I want to kick his ass. But I want that to happen, I want them to address that. Not just theres the hero, (Fill in gender pronoun here) is a great person!

Shouldn't there be more of an effect of being female in the game other than just a change of pronouns?!?!?

This is a very strong point. I regularly have to create worlds (part of being the main DM in my RPG group) and one of the setting details I have to decide on are power imbalances between races and gender. Believable characters mean that they have to react to societial pressures. A properly constructed gameworld should address the males/females in the PC group just as much as the orcs/elves in the PC group.

This of course... can be very poorly done if not fully thought out.

 Dshrike wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

I think there should be a justification that the character and gender exists. It needs to have more meaning than being able to pick your gender. And say yeah I am female, and that doesn't do anything to change the game.

People should react differently, because of different societal pressures affect people differently.

They should have confounded disagreements. If I am a female and I hear someone cat calling me, you beat I want to kick his ass. But I want that to happen, I want them to address that. Not just theres the hero, (Fill in gender pronoun here) is a great person!

Shouldn't there be more of an effect of being female in the game other than just a change of pronouns?!?!?

This is a very strong point. I regularly have to create worlds (part of being the main DM in my RPG group) and one of the setting details I have to decide on are power imbalances between races and gender. Believable characters mean that they have to react to societial pressures. A properly constructed gameworld should address the males/females in the PC group just as much as the orcs/elves in the PC group.

This of course... can be very poorly done if not fully thought out.

I made his same argument at some point as well, but I'm going to reverse a little and say that "it depends". If you want something rooted somewhat in the real world, then yes, and you should probably strive for some strain of believability. If you're going for dark and gritty, yeah, oppression could exist in the forms of many -isms, not that everyone would need to subscribe to such things, and there should be a least a few people fiercely opposed to it.

Otherwise, for a fantastical enough world, I don't think it would be hard to attain some sort of otherworld things where the genders ARE truly equal, or even some sort of matriarchy at work.

Asherian Command wrote: And say yeah I am female, and that doesn't do anything to change the game.

If it doesn't change anything, why do you object so hard as to spend thirty pages rambling on about how much you don't want any game to have it?

Apparently, to you, it DOES change something, and it changes so much that you are willing to fight tooth and nail to stop it from happening. I'm still trying to figure out what that is, because you're still saying "it doesn't matter" and using that as an excuse to exclude women.

And yes, that's what you're doing-- making excuses to exclude women. For this entire thread. "WHY SHOULD WE CHANGE, IT DOESN'T MATTER!" If it didn't matter to you, you wouldn't have objected to the proposed change to begin with.

 daedalus wrote:

 Dshrike wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

I think there should be a justification that the character and gender exists. It needs to have more meaning than being able to pick your gender. And say yeah I am female, and that doesn't do anything to change the game.

People should react differently, because of different societal pressures affect people differently.

They should have confounded disagreements. If I am a female and I hear someone cat calling me, you beat I want to kick his ass. But I want that to happen, I want them to address that. Not just theres the hero, (Fill in gender pronoun here) is a great person!

Shouldn't there be more of an effect of being female in the game other than just a change of pronouns?!?!?

This is a very strong point. I regularly have to create worlds (part of being the main DM in my RPG group) and one of the setting details I have to decide on are power imbalances between races and gender. Believable characters mean that they have to react to societial pressures. A properly constructed gameworld should address the males/females in the PC group just as much as the orcs/elves in the PC group.

This of course... can be very poorly done if not fully thought out.

I made his same argument at some point as well, but I'm going to reverse a little and say that "it depends". If you want something rooted somewhat in the real world, then yes, and you should probably strive for some strain of believability. If you're going for dark and gritty, yeah, oppression could exist in the forms of many -isms, not that everyone would need to subscribe to such things, and there should be a least a few people fiercely opposed to it.

Otherwise, for a fantastical enough world, I don't think it would be hard to attain some sort of otherworld things where the genders ARE truly equal, or even some sort of matriarchy at work.

Except that doesn't happen. No matter what we do, people will not have that egilitarian view, so in order to mirror real life experiences I think for the best interest of gaming they should bring that up. There should be some characters that share different views. Where some people cat call, because not everyone is perfect.

It should raise that question it is a very subtle but big change that should be implemented.

Meanwhile people like Melissia are calling me Misgoynist because I exclude females from games unless they have an effect in the game world. I want games to address the problems that females have, I think we should do more than just add the feature to be male or female.

That is just step 1 of many steps that should be taken. Just leaving it at that is just short sighted and doesn't help with representation. If woman want representation then we need to accurately represent them not as just puppets.

This whole idea of me saying its not enough just to add only a gender option is very dull and ill thought out. It doesn't help the issue.

It makes it worse.

We need equal representation.

If it doesn't change anything, why do you object so hard as to spend thirty pages rambling on about how much you don't want any game to have it?

Apparently, to you, it DOES change something, and it changes so much that you are willing to fight tooth and nail to stop it from happening. I'm still trying to figure out what that is, because you're still saying "it doesn't matter" and using that as an excuse to exclude women.

And yes, that's what you're doing-- making excuses to exclude women. For this entire thread. "WHY SHOULD WE CHANGE, IT DOESN'T MATTER!" If it didn't matter to you, you wouldn't have objected to the proposed change to begin with.

You know what.

I am done trying to debate this topic. If you refuse to see my logic then so be it. Because I do not have to deal with someone who thinks the world should bow down before her thoughts.

I am sorry but this is just insulting to say.

Think before you act is a phrase that should be repeated constantly.

Woman in games are ill-represented, and I have said that many times, my stance is that if a woman in a game is added and it adds nothing productive in the game world, you may as well put a fething puppet with lipstick on there and you would get the same result.

That is a huge problem. We need to change that other than saying that you can be female?

So what? So what I can be female? What does that add to the game? If I am a woman do you really think a brawny man is going to treat my like a male guy? No not exactly. If at all they won't treat me the same.

Take for example Garrus and FemSherpherd, he hits on you. Constantly. The other woman are indifferent towards you.

I think that accurately represents parts of our culture. The societal pressures we place on woman are different than that of a man. Not addressing this is a complete over sight in games. Just being able to change your gender either they be male or female should raise up the societal pressure. A man will be talked down to by a woman for trying to hit on her.

So your a male character and you try to get this one female character to like you. I think they should just reject you, especially if they are the first person you talk to. It should mimic real life. That is the goal of designer and animation is to ensure that it feels almost real but at the same time it is not real, and you know it to be. But you are so absorbed you cannot tell.

They need to implement so that societal pressures are openly talked about maturely.

I think the biggest misrepresentation in gaming, is how woman are treated. They are treated like everyone else. I find that false. There should be notable differences between genders. Because it happens, some characters might treat you the same, like the big characters should treat you as equals, but some random dude is not going to treat the same.

This would add life to the world you have created for the player this would give it depth that would of been completely unseen before in game.