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Hi guys, I've recently learned that the gk player in my gaming group has decided to take tournament level lists against mine and my other group members fluffy and friendly lists.

Though i dont like to enforce what a person can or can't take as that isnt fair, but going up against 2 pimped out dred knights, 2 landraiders, drago and 2 of the deepstrike turn 1 detachments has left me thinking im going to have to change my own list to even stand a chance.

My list mainly always contains
2 squads of 7 plague marines
5 mon spawn
Defiler
Nurgle biker lord (pfist lclaw)
7mon bikers

Then i add what ever units i feel like using on the day (like raptors ect)

Thanks guys, its much appreciated

Nurgle oblits would work well, all those plasma & melta shots will mess up most of his army.

How many oblits would you suggest? I only have 2 models :p.

How would it best be to tackle 1st turn deep strike and drago? :p

I would advice against the Defiler. It costs too much for what it does. Not something you'd want to use against a tournament list.

My experience against deep strike is to corner up, with all of your killy stuff in the back with expendable bubble wrap on the outside. This forces him to deep strike away from what I want to keep alive.

So, your list would probably have your defiler and oblits in the back with PMs making the next layer. If you have cultists, I would use them to make your footprint even larger.

Take some tank traps with an ADL, bastion, or possibly skyshield, to force this land raiders to drive around. Anything you can do to delay their arrival while you are dealing with the rest of his army.


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 Hansisaf wrote:
I would advice against the Defiler. It costs too much for what it does. Not something you'd want to use against a tournament list.

I agree on this one. I loved defilers in the last codex for around 135. 200.... eh.... not so much.

If anything, ally in some daemons and take a soul grinder. You lose the long range battle cannon (don't need it against this list), but you get AV13 for way cheaper.

 Hansisaf wrote:
I would advice against the Defiler. It costs too much for what it does. Not something you'd want to use against a tournament list.

I agree it is kinda overpriced but as i said i play a friendly list and i like the look of the model , pitty I'll probably have to change my playstyle now :/

Hmm, how about forcing him to go first and keep all your own stuff in reserve? That would deny him his first turn DS advantages. You need to have something on the table, and could use one or two small units for this, maybe one in a Bunker with a comms relay to make sure most of your stuff will come in in turn 2.

In terms of models I would also say use Oblits, and depending on his loadout adding Maulerfiends and Helbrutes. They are pretty sturdy vs S6 and with a bit of luck will even survive the occasional melta bomb.

 Green is Best! wrote:
My experience against deep strike is to corner up, with all of your killy stuff in the back with expendable bubble wrap on the outside. This forces him to deep strike away from what I want to keep alive.

So, your list would probably have your defiler and oblits in the back with PMs making the next layer. If you have cultists, I would use them to make your footprint even larger.

Take some tank traps with an ADL, bastion, or possibly skyshield, to force this land raiders to drive around. Anything you can do to delay their arrival while you are dealing with the rest of his army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hansisaf wrote:
I would advice against the Defiler. It costs too much for what it does. Not something you'd want to use against a tournament list.

I agree on this one. I loved defilers in the last codex for around 135. 200.... eh.... not so much.

If anything, ally in some daemons and take a soul grinder. You lose the long range battle cannon (don't need it against this list), but you get AV13 for way cheaper.

I'll have to try the corner thing and I've been thinking of getting some cultists so two birds one stone , would it be best to use them as 10 man squads so his shooting isnt as good? As he'll have to select and kill a pointless 10 man squad :p


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Murenius wrote:
Hmm, how about forcing him to go first and keep all your own stuff in reserve? That would deny him his first turn DS advantages. You need to have something on the table, and could use one or two small units for this, maybe one in a Bunker with a comms relay to make sure most of your stuff will come in in turn 2.

In terms of models I would also say use Oblits, and depending on his loadout adding Maulerfiends and Helbrutes. They are pretty sturdy vs S6 and with a bit of luck will even survive the occasional melta bomb.

I hadn't thought of using a hellbrute :p, I've still got my dark vengeance one laying around it might be time to give him a little loving and let him kill the puny loyalists :p

total0 wrote:


I'll have to try the corner thing and I've been thinking of getting some cultists so two birds one stone , would it be best to use them as 10 man squads so his shooting isnt as good? As he'll have to select and kill a pointless 10 man squad :p

That really depends on what you have available. If its kill points, I would say no. If its objectives, split them up. They are going to die and/or run away anyway. Their whole existence is take up space and push his deep strike landings away from your main army. The other thing to remember is spacing of your units. Look at what the footprint is of his deepstriking units. Keep the spacing between your units at this same size (plus an inch at most). This will maximize the space you take up, again forcing him to deep strike further out.

Other things to do with any cultists that survive is to move to within 1" of his models and just stand there and shoot. Do not assault. This prevents his models from moving the next turn while they deal with worthless cultists. You could care less about the cover save it gives him as his power and terminator armor is better. This is a big assumption as they will probably be dead after he arrives turn 1. Keep forcing his units to deal with menial units while your killy units do the work.

I am not going to lie, with the new GK codex I think you are safe to assume 90% of the GK players/lists you will see will have atleast 2-3 pimped out dreadknights. Taking them out is key, because they will wreak havoc all game long if they are not. AP2 weaponry will take them out in a jiffy, try to DtW the santuary powers to keep his invuln at a 5++. Focus them down, then the rest should get easier.

 Rezyn wrote:
I am not going to lie, with the new GK codex I think you are safe to assume 90% of the GK players/lists you will see will have atleast 2-3 pimped out dreadknights. Taking them out is key, because they will wreak havoc all game long if they are not. AP2 weaponry will take them out in a jiffy, try to DtW the santuary powers to keep his invuln at a 5++. Focus them down, then the rest should get easier.

As a GK player, this is completely correct. The minimal you will see is a Heavy Incinerator, Nemesis Greatsword and a Personal Teleporter and then if they can afford it a Heavy Psycannon will be the most common for sure. The best way to deal with GK is S8 AP2 weaponry. It won't help as much against the DKs but it will at least take their armor save away forcing them to use their Invul save. The best way to deal with a DK is the best way to deal with any Monstrous Creature, force weapons.

total0 wrote:Hi guys, I've recently learned that the gk player in my gaming group has decided to take tournament level lists against mine and my other group members fluffy and friendly lists.

Though i dont like to enforce what a person can or can't take as that isnt fair, but going up against 2 pimped out dred knights, 2 landraiders, drago and 2 of the deepstrike turn 1 detachments has left me thinking im going to have to change my own list to even stand a chance.

My list mainly always contains
2 squads of 7 plague marines
5 mon spawn
Defiler
Nurgle biker lord (pfist lclaw)
7mon bikers

Then i add what ever units i feel like using on the day (like raptors ect)

Thanks guys, its much appreciated

Hmm.
Just something to consider; he may only Deep Strike 1st turn with those detachments if A) He rolls for them. B) The models he's Deep Striking actually have the DS Special rule, and C) He loses Obj. Secured.
It might help a little. Beyond that, I don't know what to say. I don't touch the heresy known as "Chaos Space Marines".

I stick to the EMPRAH, and tend to shoot down a lot of that one tactic known in the codex as STEEL REHN.
It allows the SPEHHS MEHREENS to launch multiple simultaneous and devastating defensive deep strikes.

On a serious note though, what I said in my first paragraph, it might help. Especially if he didn't know/is deliberately cheating. Or if you end up playing objectives.

Even though cultists are cheap, I'm not sure if they are worth it against GK as all those incinerators / heavy incinerators will remove them in droves. Vindicators will bring the pain vs everything except dreadknights.

 Rezyn wrote:
I am not going to lie, with the new GK codex I think you are safe to assume 90% of the GK players/lists you will see will have atleast 2-3 pimped out dreadknights. Taking them out is key, because they will wreak havoc all game long if they are not. AP2 weaponry will take them out in a jiffy, try to DtW the santuary powers to keep his invuln at a 5++. Focus them down, then the rest should get easier.

Right. This should be done asap.
With sanctuary they become more resilient and are even harder to take down.
If you can't manage to kill them early in the game, the rest of the army will go for your throat.

Considering the new points prices in the new codex, you are going to be seeing a LOT of NDK and terminator armor, and anyone that wants to transport termies is likely going to go for Land Raiders. I wouldn't necessarily jump to the conclusion that he's a WAAC gamer just because he's using more points-efficient models, but I digress.

If he's really using 2x NDK (assuming tricked out with greatsword, H. Incinerator, H. Psycannon), 2x Land Raider, and Draigo, you're looking at 1200+ right there. Assuming you're playing at 1500 to 2000, you're likely going to see a very minimal troops selection. His model count may be as low as 10 to 15.

The two roads I can see to success are to either force a LOT of saves to overwhelm the 2+ armor save via sheer numbers (cultists, mass low strength fire, etc) or to field some sort of hidden power claw/fist weapons to force invul saves. As mentioned above, denying sanctuary is critical if you are attempting to force invul saves.

Green is Best! hit the nail on the head when it comes to denying deep strike and making it difficult for Land Raiders. You can also try to deploy terrain in such a way as to make it tough for the Land Raiders to cross the field, in addition to adding your own impediments such as tank traps taken as part of a fortification. Force them to either make repeated difficult/dangerous terrain tests or drive around.

Keep in mind that only GK sergeants and the non-unique HQs really have access to Melta bombs, and if they're pure GK they will have very limited access to melta, plasma and lascannons. Therefore your own MEQ and TEQ armor saves will generally not be busted outside of melee, with the exception of rending shots or any flamestorm cannons if you're facing redeemers. Not knowing CSM very well, I'm not sure what your options are, but if you can take TH/SS terminators, they're a great way to take down the GK terminators and paladins (though you'll still need to be wary of Draigo and his AP2 sword strikes at potentially S9).

Good luck, hope this helps you.

I think vindicators would be a good investment, a few of those would be a nasty threat to a GK army, just make sure you give them some bubble wrap. otherwise he'll use his Dreadknights to kill em

 Fachxphyre wrote:


Keep in mind that only GK sergeants and the non-unique HQs really have access to Melta bombs, and if they're pure GK they will have very limited access to melta, plasma and lascannons. Therefore your own MEQ and TEQ armor saves will generally not be busted outside of melee, with the exception of rending shots or any flamestorm cannons if you're facing redeemers. Not knowing CSM very well, I'm not sure what your options are, but if you can take TH/SS terminators, they're a great way to take down the GK terminators and paladins (though you'll still need to be wary of Draigo and his AP2 sword strikes at potentially S9).

Good luck, hope this helps you.

CSM does not have access to TH/SS, but they can get some Tzeentch marked terminators that rock a combi-weapon, power-weapon and a 4++ invul which is pretty dang spooky!

There is no combination of units/list from the CSM codex that is capable of consistently beating that GK list, or most tourney lists for that matter. The CSM codex is outclassed by the latest books. just compare the point values for the GK units to what you get in the CSM codex for the same points. Its not even close.

My question is, how do you have a local community that isnt all netlisting? I have my choice of an flgs, a GW, and a small group of friends to play games with. They are all hardcore WAAC. There is occasionally a random drop in at the flgs or GW that just wants a fun game - but other than that its netlisting WAAC with no exceptions. I dont play anymore because of it. No one wants to play for fun.

Ok so I have an idea....

Get Be'Lakor and a Helbrute Murder Pack. This will allow you to take 5 helbrutes in one squad. Pimp them out with dreadknight killing weaponry.

Now here is the kicker... Be'Lakor can cast invisibility on the entire Helbrute Squadron. This means, he can't hit you on anything but a 6's. Then you can proceed to rip his Grey Pansies apart. (and every time one of your helbrutes loses a HP....they get a double shot bonus.)

Just remember....Be'Lakor requires blood before the end of the battle, so once those dreadknights are dealt with....charge him into combat and bathe in the blood of those metallic abominations.

TWO of the deepstrike formations? How many points are you guys playing?

Minimum of it is one HQ one troop. Unless this is something else. Running two is very simple.

oh, I thought it was some formation.

sand.zzz wrote:
There is no combination of units/list from the CSM codex that is capable of consistently beating that GK list, or most tourney lists for that matter. The CSM codex is outclassed by the latest books. just compare the point values for the GK units to what you get in the CSM codex for the same points. Its not even close.

My question is, how do you have a local community that isnt all netlisting? I have my choice of an flgs, a GW, and a small group of friends to play games with. They are all hardcore WAAC. There is occasionally a random drop in at the flgs or GW that just wants a fun game - but other than that its netlisting WAAC with no exceptions. I dont play anymore because of it. No one wants to play for fun.

Cut the WAAC crap. Just because some people actually enjoy the game as much as the models and the hobby doesn't make them "not fun".
You'd rather play with your models and not bother about the game's rules and all that ? good for you.

That's it.

WAAC means win at all costs, it doesn't mean just playing the damn game like it was written and trying to win because that's the declared objective of a game of 40K, which is what I guess most of those players do.

If you don't want to play the game, fine, just don't start calling your little friends names because you're pissed.

Get together with people who just like you don't care about the game or the optimization and instead are more interested in other aspects of the hobby, and have your kind of fun with them.

sand.zzz wrote:
There is no combination of units/list from the CSM codex that is capable of consistently beating that GK list, or most tourney lists for that matter. The CSM codex is outclassed by the latest books. just compare the point values for the GK units to what you get in the CSM codex for the same points. Its not even close.

My question is, how do you have a local community that isnt all netlisting? I have my choice of an flgs, a GW, and a small group of friends to play games with. They are all hardcore WAAC. There is occasionally a random drop in at the flgs or GW that just wants a fun game - but other than that its netlisting WAAC with no exceptions. I dont play anymore because of it. No one wants to play for fun.

Sounds like the bitter opinion of a man who saw a struggle and choose to give up.


Sounds like you need more AT for starters.

Units I'd recommend in your situation are Maulerfiends, LasCannon Predators, Helbrute Mayhem squad (meltas) and as someone else mentioned, Tzeentch Terminators in a LandRaider. Iwhat you own/can borrow out of these models is a different story, Im unsure of that of course. However I am confident my Iron Warriors would tear this list to shreds 2 games out of 3. Don't listen to people who tell you this match up is unwinnable, far from it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well said Morgoth.


What's the difference between rage quitting because you lost, or quitting because you aren't winning? Nothing except for which side of the table you are on. It's WAAC to quit because you aren't winning, if your friends are playing competitive step your game up if not winning all the time means so much to you, nobody enters a strategy game setting out to lose, your opponents won't be either. Your friends don't sounds WAAC at all, especially compared to you, they merely sound like people enjoys the strategical side of the game together at a higher level.

I agree with SHUPPET. I won my last game CSM vs. GK with a similar list: Maulerfiends, a Helbrute mayhem pack, a Defiler. I even ran a Warpsmith with them (Termis for ablative wounds) who made sure they all survived and - funnily enough even took out 2 dreadknights.

If he uses many small squads this is a nice opportunity to roll a lot of times on the Chaos Boon table, btw. I had a Sorcerer running around with +1W, shred and FNP.

Oh, and cultists with autoguns turned out to work much better than expected: the targets auto delivered themselves by first striking so I could move them into rapid fire range. And GK don't have much other choice than DS near you. Yes, the templates can kill quite some cultists. But it's only 4 pts. per kill and might tempt him from not shooting at other targets with it would hurt more.

Also: large cultist groups allow you to direct where the DS will happen. Deploy into one corner of the battlefield and buffer your important units by placing Cultists as widespread as possible. That way you can create a corridor where they have to strike if they don't want to risk mishaps; or they have to take some distance which also will protect you a bit. If you do it right even torrent will not be as bad as it can be if you just set up as for other armies.

I too run a Warpsmith with 4 Tzn Termie and a sorcerer in a LandRaider, as well as a Helbrute Mayhem pack - sounds like we run pretty similar mech lists Murenius!!

Technically, there are no "Tournament Level" GK lists. The closest they can get are 2 CADs for 6 NDKs, 2 Libbies, and 4 naked squads of GK Strikes. A GK "for fun" list will see units not listed above. GK Termies are really good right now, and have a place as Troops in any GK list, yet they are still Tac Termies that die like Tac Termies. If you load up on anti-tank, and go for Tarpitting, you can neuter a "for fun" GK list with just about any army (sorry Nids, it's not your day to shine).

Just plan on killing 1-2 Knight Titans, and you will have enough AT to burn Grey Knights.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Technically, there are no "Tournament Level" GK lists. The closest they can get are 2 CADs for 6 NDKs, 2 Libbies, and 4 naked squads of GK Strikes. A GK "for fun" list will see units not listed above. GK Termies are really good right now, and have a place as Troops in any GK list, yet they are still Tac Termies that die like Tac Termies. If you load up on anti-tank, and go for Tarpitting, you can neuter a "for fun" GK list with just about any army (sorry Nids, it's not your day to shine).

Just plan on killing 1-2 Knight Titans, and you will have enough AT to burn Grey Knights.

SJ

I kind of agree with this. There are no pure GK tournament lists. The GKs unfortunately lack a lot of things to be self-sufficient like some armies can so the best Tournament list is going to be GK with Allies or the GK are the Allies. That being said, Terminators and DKs will be what you see most, so if you can take those out, you will do fine. Most of the Deathstars containing GK are GK supporting another army like Draigostar where Draigo, and a Librarian support of Grav Centurions.

I was going to say that too, it doesn't look like a terribly WAAC list at all, he's just taking models out his dex I mean other than taking the models that he did there is hardly much reason to even play GK over regular Marines

Add a heldrake and a pair of maulerfiends. Keep the bikers and Spawn. Use the Crimson Slaughter supplement and kit out the chaos lord of nurgle on bike with horns, daemon sword, and 2+ armour save. Reduce plague marines to cultists that sit around and pick their nose while the rest of the army butchers everything.