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 Peregrine wrote:
No, and that's exactly the point. In theory the "both players have to agree" and "you can refuse a game for any reason" rules apply equally to titans and tactical squads. But in practice certain categories of units (LoW, FW, etc) are treated as if they require special permission, while others are assumed to be legal without question and you're TFG if you even think about refusing to allow them.

No, RAW they don't require special permission.
The fact is that a game with a Lord of War is played differently than a game without a LoW.
Or are you going to tell me that a Tactical Squad plays the same as a Transcendent C'tan?

People expect you to at least inform them and they expect you to not play it if they don't want it.
That's not a law, that is an unofficial 'understanding'.

Kangodo wrote:

That's not a law, that is an unofficial 'understanding'.

It's an official understanding. It's listed as the rules in the rulebook.

I was aiming at the 'LoWs are special from Tactical Squads and about informing your opponent at least a day before the game'

Why should we tell them about LoW? I mean, they don't inform us they're bringing Abaddon... Why do we have to inform them we're taking Gazghull?

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Why should we tell them about LoW? I mean, they don't inform us they're bringing Abaddon... Why do we have to inform them we're taking Gazghull?

Because we are talking about SHV's and GMC's and not about Ghazghkull.
You don't have to tell me that you suddenly decided to field a Reaver Titan, the rules don't require you to inform me before I arrive at the place where we game.
But I will pack my things and go play someone else. If there is nobody else, I will go home.

Kangodo wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Why should we tell them about LoW? I mean, they don't inform us they're bringing Abaddon... Why do we have to inform them we're taking Gazghull?

Because we are talking about SHV's and GMC's and not about Ghazghkull.
You don't have to tell me that you suddenly decided to field a Reaver Titan.
But I will pack my things and go play someone else.

I think that mentality is very obtuse. It's a slippery slope to start deciding if you'll play someone based on what they bring. Why not just accept they're part of the game, and build your TAC list against it?

Because I am a player that plays this game and pays a lot of money to enjoy himself.
And that does not include playing against a Reaver Titan that I did not expect just as I decided to try out a melee-Necron army.
Or when I decide to dust off my underpowered crappy Blood Angels.

As for the quote itself:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
I think that mentality is very obtuse. It's a slippery slope to start deciding if you'll play someone based on what they bring. Why not just accept they're part of the game, and build your TAC list against it?

I decide if I will play someone based on whether I will have fun for the next couple of hours or not. And that happens to be influenced by the list he plays.
The only obtuse mentality is expecting me to do something I don't want because you think it's a part of the game.
Which I agree on, they are a part of the game!
Just like Apocalypse is part of the game. But I prefer it if people inform me that we are playing a weekend of Apocalypse when I decide to come over to play.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
I think that mentality is very obtuse. It's a slippery slope to start deciding if you'll play someone based on what they bring. Why not just accept they're part of the game, and build your TAC list against it?

Yet the rules say that is perfectly legal ('Preparing for Battle', under the heading 'Choosing Your Army' in bold type).

 Ghaz wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
I think that mentality is very obtuse. It's a slippery slope to start deciding if you'll play someone based on what they bring. Why not just accept they're part of the game, and build your TAC list against it?

Yet the rules say that is perfectly legal ('Preparing for Battle', under the heading 'Choosing Your Army' in bold type).

Rules also say it's perfectly legal to bring yourself a titan.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Rules also say it's perfectly legal to bring yourself a titan.

Nobody said it's not legal.
Read this, read it again and then read it a third time:

Before any game, players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use.

In short: You cannot force me to play against your Titan.
Not just because the rules tell it, but I am sure that your country has some rules against that too.

Only if both players agree. If they don't, then the rules do not say that you can bring a Titan despite the fact that your opponent didn't agree to it.

Kangodo wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Rules also say it's perfectly legal to bring yourself a titan.

Nobody said it's not legal.
Read this, read it again and then read it a third time:

Before any game, players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use.

In short: You cannot force me to play against your Titan.
Not just because the rules tell it, but I am sure that your country has some rules against that too.

Yea, but then you're just being TFG

*grabs popcorn*

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Yea, but then you're just being TFG

Do you have any idea what a TFG is?
And I'm such a thing because I have better things to do than spend three hours on something I don't like?
Maybe you are unaware, but maybe you should read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extortion
You cannot force someone to do something against their will.

But sure, go ahead and break forum-rules, game-rules, store-rules and national law because you HAVE to play with that Titan.

Kangodo wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Yea, but then you're just being TFG

Do you have any idea what a TFG is?
And I'm such a thing because I have better things to do than spend three hours on something I don't like?
Maybe you are unaware, but maybe you should read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extortion
You cannot force someone to do something against their will.

But sure, go ahead and break forum-rules, game-rules, store-rules and national law because you HAVE to play with that Titan.

Actually, I've broken none of those things. I would seriously try and relax though. Life is too short to get mad at the internet...

1. Insulting other users is not allowed.
2. The game tells you that an opponent should agree on the units you take.
3. Stores probably have rules against forcing people to play you.
4. Extortion is illegal.

So that are four (maybe three) out of four rules you'd break. Good luck!
Maybe people wouldn't get mad if you didn't insult them? But I'm going and I'll let a moderator deal with it.

Kangodo wrote:
1. Insulting other users is not allowed.
2. The game tells you that an opponent should agree on the units you take.
3. Stores probably have rules against forcing people to play you.
4. Extortion is illegal.

So that are four (maybe three) out of four rules you'd break. Good luck!
Maybe people wouldn't get mad if you didn't insult them? But I'm going and I'll let a moderator deal with it.

I welcome a MOD. I haven't insulted anyone. I've extorted no one. As far as the game goes, it also gives guidlines on what units you may take according to Warhammer 40000, according to those guidelines, you're alotted one LOW in a bound army list as well as unbound.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Now our group would most likely go "Cool a Reaver Titan!" rather than "No you can't play that."
We also feel it is not unreasonable to go "Fred...this is the 10th time you brought out your Riptide SPAM in a row, you want to bring something else, it is getting real boring to fight you."

Yep, exactly this. Blanket refusals are just silly, and I will gladly play against an army with a cool titan once in a while, even if it might mean my army gets mercilessly slaughtered. Of course, always playing against certain rather overpowered armies will get old at some point, but that is not really a problem caused exclusively (or even mostly) by LOWs.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
I welcome a MOD. I haven't insulted anyone. I've extorted no one. As far as the game goes, it also gives guidlines on what units you may take according to Warhammer 40000, according to those guidelines, you're alotted one LOW in a bound army list as well as unbound.

RTFM:

Before any game, players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use.

The BRB tells you that your opponent must agree.
Case closed.

Kangodo wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
I welcome a MOD. I haven't insulted anyone. I've extorted no one. As far as the game goes, it also gives guidlines on what units you may take according to Warhammer 40000, according to those guidelines, you're alotted one LOW in a bound army list as well as unbound.

RTFM:

Before any game, players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use.

The BRB tells you that your opponent must agree.
Case closed.

It also tells me I Can bring a LOW, case open.

People don't have to agree with you. They don't have to do it in a store, and they don't have to do it on the internet. But if someone doesn't agree with you, the appropriate response (certainly on Dakka; usually in life) is not to start ranting at each other nor to start through around claims of extortion. Drop it, and go enjoy some other part of the forum.

Edit: Just in case I was insufficiently clear, we're done with discussing accusations of "TFG"-dom and extortion. If you don't have anything to say on the topic without discussing that, you don't need to be posting in this thread.

EDIT: mod delete please.

Kangodo wrote:
The BRB tells you that your opponent must agree.
Case closed.

No, the case is absolutely NOT closed because we're talking about player policies, not RAW. In theory the rules say that you have to agree about everything. In practice what this really means is that a lot of players expect advance notification/begging for permission/etc for certain categories of units/armies (LoW, unbound, etc) but simultaneously expect that if they want to use other categories of units/armies (tactical squads, for example) their opponent is obligated to let them do it and is TFG if they refuse to play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kangodo wrote:
And that does not include playing against a Reaver Titan that I did not expect just as I decided to try out a melee-Necron army.
Or when I decide to dust off my underpowered crappy Blood Angels.

Two issues here:

1) Why is it your opponent's job to keep track of which awful army you're going to be playing and give you advanced warning so you can bring a terrible list and still have a chance of winning? Shouldn't it be your job to inform your opponent in advance that you want to bring a terrible list and try to find someone willing to accommodate your request?

2) Why don't you expect to face a Reaver titan? It's part of the rules, complaining about not expecting one makes about as much sense as complaining that you didn't expect to face a Rhino.

Just like Apocalypse is part of the game. But I prefer it if people inform me that we are playing a weekend of Apocalypse when I decide to come over to play.

Except that's not really a good comparison because Apocalypse isn't part of the standard game. It's an alternate form of 40k that requires both players to bring different armies. An army with a LoW, on the other hand, is a normal 40k army played in normal 40k missions against other normal 40k armies. Expecting special advance notice that a LoW will be present is more like demanding advance notice that your opponent will be using a tactical squad.

 Peregrine wrote:
Except that's not really true. If you say you're not going to play against tactical squads people are going to think you're being unreasonable (or even TFG), and you're going to have a hard time finding anyone interested in playing with you..

I suspect that really comes down to your reasons for doing so.

I haven't refused to play against tactical squads specifically, but I have refused games against bog-standard Marine armies simply because my previous few games were against marines and I wanted to play something different.


It's not as simple as 'If you refuse to play, you're being unreasonable'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
1) Why is it your opponent's job to keep track of which awful army you're going to be playing and give you advanced warning so you can bring a terrible list and still have a chance of winning? Shouldn't it be your job to inform your opponent in advance that you want to bring a terrible list and try to find someone willing to accommodate your request?

It' nobody's 'job' to keep track of anything. We're talking about a game of toy soldiers. If someone doesn't want to play against someone else's army because the force they have with them wouldn't make for a fun match-up, that's really not as big a deal as you seem to be trying to make it out to be.

Just deleted a long rant, because there has to be a way to express those thoughts more concisely.

I don't currently play the game. Played tail end of third to first few months of fifth then stopped because of life for a while. Ready to come back into the game, but it doesn't appeal to me in the current form. Superheavies and flyers as part of the core game is part of why. I've started collecting, but don't play and probably won't ever buy the 7th edition rules.

I don't mind the idea of playing occasional games against flyers/superheavies, but to me they aren't what I want in the core game. I don't want most lists I build to be forced to have a way to deal with them and I have no interest in obtaining either type of models. I like tanks/monstrous creatures, infantry and heros. That is what the game is primarily about for me, but that is no longer the game so I don't play.

I don't know. Maybe most of the players and potential players prefer flyers and superheavies. My guess is no, but I could be wrong. Perhaps it doesn't mean anything, but a poll here showed 60% preferred 4th/5th and only 25% preferred 6/7th as their favorite era.

Anyway, the options, tactics and feel of the game with and without flyers and superheavies are different enough that they are almost two different games. (At least it seems so to me, though admittedly I haven't played with those rules). One appeals to me, the other doesn't. Perhaps I am in the minority and the game isn't really impacted by those who feel as I do, but I don't think this is the case. I think those who play have fewer opponents and less diversity of human interaction and gameplay due to the rules being structured in a way that drives away more people than they draw in.

As I said above, I would gladly play against superheavies and flyers occasionally, but the prospect of needing to prepare for them every game is so unappealing I simply don't play.

(Yes, that is the short version) :-p

Why is another thread like this still up? Really people I dont care how much you hate the idea of LoW, get over it they are in the game and they are not going anywhere. Just because you do not like it doesnt mean another player should be forced to change up their list or what models they want because you say so. When it comes to friendly games you can easily say "hey I want to try out a friendly list, mind not bringing your Superheavy since I have nothing to handle it?" or "Mind if I change up my list so I can bring stuff to handle your LoW?" Its that easy.

Now for Tournaments you CANNOT say this and guess what, you can toughen up. They are considered legal and you cannot refuse them if you play in tournaments. The biggest issue I have with threads like these is that it seems the vast majority of you guys against it are playing lists that you are REFUSING to change or adapt and instead demand the other player do it, yeah like that is fair.

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:

I don't know. Maybe most of the players and potential players prefer flyers and superheavies. My guess is no, but I could be wrong. Perhaps it doesn't mean anything, but a poll here showed 60% preferred 4th/5th and only 25% preferred 6/7th as their favorite era.

A single poll that not everybody on here or who plays the game voted on shows that most palyers prefer 4th/5t edition, that is a very small % and should not be taken into account for the majority of 40k players.

 gmaleron wrote:
Why is another thread like this still up? Really people I dont care how much you hate the idea of LoW, get over it they are in the game and they are not going anywhere. Just because you do not like it doesnt mean another player should be forced to change up their list or what models they want because you say so. When it comes to friendly games you can easily say "hey I want to try out a friendly list, mind not bringing your Superheavy since I have nothing to handle it?" or "Mind if I change up my list so I can bring stuff to handle your LoW?" Its that easy.

Now for Tournaments you CANNOT say this and guess what, you can toughen up. They are considered legal and you cannot refuse them if you play in tournaments. The biggest issue I have with threads like these is that it seems the vast majority of you guys against it are playing lists that you are REFUSING to change or adapt and instead demand the other player do it, yeah like that is fair.

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:

I don't know. Maybe most of the players and potential players prefer flyers and superheavies. My guess is no, but I could be wrong. Perhaps it doesn't mean anything, but a poll here showed 60% preferred 4th/5th and only 25% preferred 6/7th as their favorite era.

A single poll that not everybody on here or who plays the game voted on shows that most palyers prefer 4th/5t edition, that is a very small % and should not be taken into account for the majority of 40k players.

Unless the tournament bans them, which happens a lot. Some people are willing to play against them, some aren't. It is that simple, let it go.

I personally am not affected by this, I just get annoyed when people complain about something and try to force others to play the game they feel it should be played as, not as the game actually is. I have a Forgeworld army so will admit I may be more annoyed with arguments like these as I am tired of hearing them.

I don't think Most Players do not play with the "War Machines". Which might be part of the problem, those who have a Solid Opinion one way or the other are the loudest. I think most of us can take them or leave them.
As far as the Flyers go, they are very popular and I think the same goes with those who have Solid Opinions of them, They are very loud about their opinions.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
If it's legal and people won't play you if you bring it, then they're TFG. It's like saying "I won't play you if you bring drop pods because I don't like them"...

Who is more of a TFG: the guy who brings a 2000pt army consisting of Horus and a Reaver titan, or the guy with the normal TAC list who doesn't want to play against that?

how are you bringing Horus?

30k isnt legal in 40k. so the reaver is atleast 40k legal...