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So I've got 3 interrelated questions.


The Teleport Homer says that it works in units of Terminators/units with Personal Teleporters who are deep striking.

Gate of Infinity makes you re-deep strike onto the board.

Rites of Teleportation lets you pretend you are Eldar when you deep strike.


Can a unit that Deep Strikes via Gate of Infinity benefit from a teleport homer AND get the Rites of Teleportation bonus?

By my reading(and GWs leaky rules) I think you can, but I'd like to get confirmation.

I would say yes, and that is a nice combo

I'm thinking Interceptor squads with Teleport Homers, and as many Lvl3 Libbys+Terminator squad modules as you can fit in(or if you're lucky with your Grand Master)

 Grey Templar wrote:
I'm thinking Interceptor squads with Teleport Homers, and as many Lvl3 Libbys+Terminator squad modules as you can fit in(or if you're lucky with your Grand Master)

Just remember that a Teleport Homer must be on the tabletop at the beginning of the turn you wish to make use of it. That means before reserve rolls.

The goal would be to have a homer on each unit in the army that can take one, use Rites to DS as many units on to the table as possible turn 1, and then starting turn 2 use Gate to combo non-scatter from the Homers with run-shoot/shoot-run from Rites.

Personally, I find the combo to be legal per RAW because Rites allows a NSF unit arriving by DS to either run-shoot or shoot-run the turn they arrive, Gate has a unit redeploy via DS during a Psychic phase, while GK Telrport Homers require a DS'ing unit to be arriving from DS reserves. As all 3 requirements are met, the combo seems to work per RAW.

The issues:

An argument can be made that a Gating unit is not arriving ftom DS reserves because at no point in the power are we told to place the unit into DS reserves. The argument for arriving from DS reserves is that Gating tells us to use the DS rules as normal, and DS states a unit must be in DS reserves in order to DS. I see the connection between Gate's remove from table = place in DS reserve, but others disagree.

An argument can be made that Rites only work the first time a NSF unit arrives via DS, not everytime a NSF unit arrives via DS. I can see it going either way.

As with everything, your mileage may vary. I for one can see the RAW in both arguments, yet think the RAW supports the combo over not supporting the combo.

SJ

Rites of Teleportation specifically requires the unit to arrive from Deep Strike Reserve.

Does GoI put the unit in DSR?

It says ''using the rules for deep strike''

Normally, a deep striking unit arrives from deep strike reserves. So I think it must temporarily place them in deep strike reserves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ond Angel wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I'm thinking Interceptor squads with Teleport Homers, and as many Lvl3 Libbys+Terminator squad modules as you can fit in(or if you're lucky with your Grand Master)

Just remember that a Teleport Homer must be on the tabletop at the beginning of the turn you wish to make use of it. That means before reserve rolls.

Of course.

Interceptor squads deploy normally, everything else deep strikes turn one. Or uses GoI turn one. Depends on the battlefield situation.

No, sorry. As cool as this combo would be, it doesn't work.

Teleport homers and Rites of Teleportation work when you arrive from Deep Strike Reserve. When using Gate of Infinity, at no point are units ever placed in reserve.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
No, sorry. As cool as this combo would be, it doesn't work.

Teleport homers and Rites of Teleportation work when you arrive from Deep Strike Reserve. When using Gate of Infinity, at no point are units ever placed in reserve.

But the rules for deep strike say you arrive from deep strike reserve. So yes it does.

 Grey Templar wrote:
It says ''using the rules for deep strike''

Normally, a deep striking unit arrives from deep strike reserves. So I think it must temporarily place them in deep strike reserves.

This is what I don't agree with - you shouldn't have to invoke some implied "temporary reserves" to make the teleport homers work. What makes more sense to me is that GoI implicitly skips over the reserves step of the Deep Strike rules, since the models were never in reserves (they were explicitly "removed from the board").

Why not?

What prevents that from being the case?

Deep Strike is a way to arrive from reserves = you are arriving from reserves when you Deep Strike. Even if you were only in reserves for a miniscule amount of time.

That logic is false
Deep Strike is a way of arriving from Reserves.
But not every Deep Strike is an arrival from Reserves.

You are saying that, for a minuscule amount of time, they are held in Reserve.
Can you link me the rule that tells us that? Otherwise we'd have to assume they do not come from Reserve.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Why not?

What prevents that from being the case?

Deep Strike is a way to arrive from reserves = you are arriving from reserves when you Deep Strike. Even if you were only in reserves for a miniscule amount of time.

Please quote the rule that allows models on the table to leave the table and enter reserves.

Actually, because the default state is that units that are deep striking come from reserves, it is you who have to prove they do not arrive from reserves.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Actually, because the default state is that units that are deep striking come from reserves, it is you who have to prove they do not arrive from reserves.

Did they start the game in Deep Strike Reserves? If not they cannot Deep Strike at all then.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Actually, because the default state is that units that are deep striking come from reserves, it is you who have to prove they do not arrive from reserves.

Did they start the game in Deep Strike Reserves? If not they cannot Deep Strike at all then.

So you admit that to deep strike you must be in reserves.

Thus for Gate of Infinity to work, it MUST place the unit into Deep Strike Reserves temporarily.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Actually, because the default state is that units that are deep striking come from reserves, it is you who have to prove they do not arrive from reserves.

Did they start the game in Deep Strike Reserves? If not they cannot Deep Strike at all then.

So you admit that to deep strike you must be in reserves.

Thus for Gate of Infinity to work, it MUST place the unit into Deep Strike Reserves temporarily.

But it doesn't place the unit in Reserves, as unlike Skyleap, Borrow, or Leaving Combat Space it does not give permission to place units in Reserves. Therefore as per your logic, GoI does not work at all.

I believe a precedence is set as Necron Deathmarks can not multi mark as they use a cryptek of despair to jump around the board.

If they go into reserve, then why don't you have to make a reserve roll to get them back?

Deathmarks had to be FAQ'd to not get their multiple marks. RAW they were perfectly capable of marking multiple units.

 Ghaz wrote:
If they go into reserve, then why don't you have to make a reserve roll to get them back?

Because the power says they "immediately arrive"

Which also supports my claim. Where do they arrive from if not from reserves?


They "immediately arrive using the rules for Deep Strike."

The rules for deep strike require you to place units using it in reserve. Ergo, units using Gate of Infinity MUST be arriving from reserves.

Please provide a rules quote that states the unit is placed in Reserves.

Also the rules for Deep Strike require the unit to start the game in Deep Strike Reserves.

 Happyjew wrote:
Please provide a rules quote that states the unit is placed in Reserves.

"Gate of Infinity is a blessing... ...remove the target and his unit from the board. It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike."

Also the rules for Deep Strike require the unit to start the game in Deep Strike Reserves.

Your own words prove it.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Deathmarks had to be FAQ'd to not get their multiple marks. RAW they were perfectly capable of marking multiple units.

 Ghaz wrote:
If they go into reserve, then why don't you have to make a reserve roll to get them back?

Because the power says they "immediately arrive"

Which also supports my claim. Where do they arrive from if not from reserves?


They "immediately arrive using the rules for Deep Strike."

The rules for deep strike require you to place units using it in reserve. Ergo, units using Gate of Infinity MUST be arriving from reserves.

So are they 'arriving immediately' if they go into reserve? No they're not. This more than amply disproves your claims.

Sure they are. They go into reserves and then immediately arrive(to clarify they don't wait for next turn's movement phase). This is because you can't deep strike if you aren't in reserves, thus is a mandatory(and implicit) result of casting Gate of Infinity.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Please provide a rules quote that states the unit is placed in Reserves.

"Gate of Infinity is a blessing... ...remove the target and his unit from the board. It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike."

Also the rules for Deep Strike require the unit to start the game in Deep Strike Reserves.

Your own words prove it.

I'm sure you can highlight where it says the unit goes into Reserves. For example:

Codex: Eldar wrote:Skyleap: ...remove the unit from the board and place it in Onoging Reserve.

Codex: Tyranids wrote:Burrow: If it does so, remove it from the table and place it into Ongoing Reserves.

Note both of those tell you to place the unit in Reserves.

Since you are insisting that all the Deep Strike rules must be used, please explain how you get around the following:

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule

So only units that are entirely composed of models with the Deep Strike special rule can use GoI. And the Veil of Darkness doesn't work at all.

Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves

Did you remember to roll for the unit using GoI? After all it is part of the Deep Strike rules. This also means you cannot use it Turn 1, since you do not roll for Reserves until Turn 2.


Also how are you bringing in Reserves if it is not the start of the Movement phase? You need permission to override that as well.

No they don't. 'Immediately' does not allow any side trips. Placing a unit in reserve, no matter how briefly means that you've broken the rule that they immediately arrive.

 Happyjew wrote:

I'm sure you can highlight where it says the unit goes into Reserves. For example:

Codex: Eldar wrote:Skyleap: ...remove the unit from the board and place it in Onoging Reserve.

Codex: Tyranids wrote:Burrow: If it does so, remove it from the table and place it into Ongoing Reserves.

Note both of those tell you to place the unit in Reserves.

Both of those rules are redundant wording(plentiful in GW rules), as using Deep Strike requires you to use Reserves.

Since you are insisting that all the Deep Strike rules must be used, please explain how you get around the following:

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule

So only units that are entirely composed of models with the Deep Strike special rule can use GoI. And the Veil of Darkness doesn't work at all.

That may indeed be true. Fortunately all GK psykers who can get GOI have the ability to Deep Strike. You might not be able to use it if in a unit that doesn't have Deep Strike, but thats another debate.

Maybe Veil of Darkness doesn't work. It results in less of a broken game when you can't cast a psychic power at all.

Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves

Did you remember to roll for the unit using GoI? After all it is part of the Deep Strike rules. This also means you cannot use it Turn 1, since you do not roll for Reserves until Turn 2.

Also how are you bringing in Reserves if it is not the start of the Movement phase? You need permission to override that as well.

Did you forget the "arrives immediately" part of GOI?

That supersedes the normal requirement to roll for reserves and that it be in the movement phase.

Even though you go into reserves and then deep strike, you still satisfy the "immediately" because nothing else happens between then. It literally happens instantaneously.

They instantaneously enter reserves, arrive, and Deep Strike. Thus satisfying all the rules.



But clearly you guys aren't willing to accept this, so best just to part ways in disagreement. We both think the other to be wrong so nothing will come of it.

slighty on topic (but mostly off, i can't find this posted anywhere else) ... the Teleport Homer rule is: it works for units of Terminators and or units with Personal Teleporters who are deep striking.

As Strike Squads in particular are not in Termie armour nor carry PTs but they have the Deep Strike rule, does this mean that they can't use Teleport Homers? Also would mean that the DK wouldn't be able to use without the 30pt upgrade (although the chappie in the harness is in Termie armour..would that count?).

Unless the unit has permission, then they must have Terminator amour listed in their wargear.

an oversight do you reckon? seems a bit daft not being able to use the homers