Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Possibly with the Dreadknight. Dreadknights used to have Dreadknight Armour, which allowed them to teleport. Now they do not.

 harryflashman wrote:
an oversight do you reckon? seems a bit daft not being able to use the homers

Not an oversight. The lore is that Strike Squads arrive first (without help from homers) and set up the homers for the main force of Terminators and Teleporters. And almost no one takes a Dreadknight without a teleporter now so that isn't really an issue.

 Happyjew wrote:
Possibly with the Dreadknight. Dreadknights used to have Dreadknight Armour, which allowed them to teleport. Now they do not.

Well Personal Teleporters both give Deep Strike and will trigger the Teleport Homer now. So if a Dreadknight is deep striking he can use teleport homers.

On the Eldar comment, note that the Eldar Battle Focus rule lets you move-shoot or shoot-move in the shooting phase. The Deep strike rule states that:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

So a quote of the GK Battle Focus rule would be needed to see when they do their dance.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
No, sorry. As cool as this combo would be, it doesn't work.
Teleport homers and Rites of Teleportation work when you arrive from Deep Strike Reserve. When using Gate of Infinity, at no point are units ever placed in reserve.

But the rules for deep strike say you arrive from deep strike reserve. So yes it does.

Daniel has it right.
GOI says:

Gate of Infinity is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Unless the target is Zooming or Swooping, remove the target and his unit from the board. It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike.

RAW but not HIWPI, Gate is either broken or only intended to allow someone who already deep struck in to move around. The "arrives immediately" portion is simply an out of order sequencing so you can do it in the Psychic phase.

Gate says arrive following the DS rules.
The DS rules are :
1) Start off the table from reserves
2) Have the deep strike rule

GOI explicitly says to follow those rules, but does not grant those conditions to units that don't already have them. GreyTemplar and I have disagreed at length so I won't attempt to re-litigate it here, but you can see it in the Skyleap thread if interested. Note that my future lack of follow up on attempts to claim that "arrives immediately" means they go into reserves, count as having started in reserves before the game and gain the DS rule" is not an acceptance of such claims.



Also, a quote of the GK teleport homer would be useful for nonGK players to see. The SM one, for example, does NOT allow Drop Pods to come in accurately, only the locator beacon is worded that way.

The GK Teleport homer says,

Friendly units composed entirely of models in Terminator armor(including the Cuirass of Sacrifice) and/or models with a personal teleporter do not scatter when arriving from Deep Strike Reserve, so long as the first model is placed within 6" of the teleport homer's bearer

The Deep Strike Rules say,

...when placing a unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent it will be arriving by Deep Strike(sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)...

This shows an equivalence between arriving by Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves. A=B, therefore, a unit doing A is also doing B.


Finally, Gate of Infinity says,

...It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike.

So Gate of Infinity = arriving from Deep Strike.

Arriving from Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserves.

Deep Strike Reserve + TDA or Personal Teleporter = may use Teleport Homer.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The GK Teleport homer says,

Friendly units composed entirely of models in Terminator armor(including the Cuirass of Sacrifice) and/or models with a personal teleporter do not scatter when arriving from Deep Strike Reserve, so long as the first model is placed within 6" of the teleport homer's bearer

I'll disagree on the rest for reasons we'd just go in circles over, but thank you for the GK teleport homer (_8(|) quote. I'm glad that they wrote it as "entirely in" vs "with" so at least that's clear enough to not allow 1 termie guy to tote a PAGK squad around. I'd have been fine with "at least one model with" termie armor wording too, it's just the ambiguous states I hate.

Yeah, the older Teleport homer rules were bad because there is no difference in deep striking.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
On the Eldar comment, note that the Eldar Battle Focus rule lets you move-shoot or shoot-move in the shooting phase. The Deep strike rule states that:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

So a quote of the GK Battle Focus rule would be needed to see when they do their dance.

C:GK Rites of Teleportation, last line; "In addition, all units from this Detachment can both Run and Shoot, in any order, in the same turn that they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve."

RAW being one thing, its pretty obvious that GoI does not actually put them into reserve. It just moves them with deep strike scatter rules.

Nothing suggests that was their intent. The previous versions actually explicitly said the unit counts as arriving from reserves.

A unit using GoI isn't arriving from deep strike reserve. They cannot therefore benefit from a teleport homer.

I believe I concisely showed they in fact do count as arriving from Deep Strike Reserve. Because arriving by Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserve(Per the DS rules) and GoI says you arrive immediately by deep strike anywhere on the board.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I believe I concisely showed they in fact do count as arriving from Deep Strike Reserve. Because arriving by Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserve(Per the DS rules) and GoI says you arrive immediately by deep strike anywhere on the board.

Don't the Deep Strike rules also say the whole unit needs to have the Deep Strike rule, and start the game in Deep Strike Reserves?

 Happyjew wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I believe I concisely showed they in fact do count as arriving from Deep Strike Reserve. Because arriving by Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserve(Per the DS rules) and GoI says you arrive immediately by deep strike anywhere on the board.

Don't the Deep Strike rules also say the whole unit needs to have the Deep Strike rule, and start the game in Deep Strike Reserves?

They do. Which RAW means that only a unit that has the ability to deep strike normally can use GoI. Not a problem in this situation.

And because GoI says you "immediately arrive" you also enter reserves when you use the power. Thus you satisfy all the requirements for deep striking.

The problem is the 'start the game' part, so just entering Reserves for a brief moment still would fail to meet the Requirements.
I loath you Deep Strike, I refuse to ever use you again because of all this poor editing and formatting....

 Grey Templar wrote:
The GK Teleport homer says,

Friendly units composed entirely of models in Terminator armor(including the Cuirass of Sacrifice) and/or models with a personal teleporter do not scatter when arriving from Deep Strike Reserve, so long as the first model is placed within 6" of the teleport homer's bearer

The Deep Strike Rules say,

...when placing a unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent it will be arriving by Deep Strike(sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)...

This shows an equivalence between arriving by Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves. A=B, therefore, a unit doing A is also doing B.


Finally, Gate of Infinity says,

...It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike.

So Gate of Infinity = arriving from Deep Strike.

Arriving from Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserves.

Deep Strike Reserve + TDA or Personal Teleporter = may use Teleport Homer.

yes, this is all correct, and backed up by actual, rules.


everyone contesting that deep striking units in terminator armour/with teleporters dont get to benefit from rules they are entitled to benefit from is wrong, and they have not quoted any rules to back up their statement that arriving from deepstrike can be done more then one way, or without placing the unit into deep strike or deepstrike reseve (which GW EXPLICITLY for once, states it uses those two terms interchangeably)

RAW: yes GOI causes the unit to deep strike, and yes it benifits from any bonuses to deep striking like the homer and run/shoot bonus.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I believe I concisely showed they in fact do count as arriving from Deep Strike Reserve. Because arriving by Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserve(Per the DS rules)

This is incorrect for the following reasons.

1) Nowhere in the GoI rules does it state that the unit is placed in deep strike reserves. Assuming that they do enter deep strike reserves as part of GoI therefore has no basis in RAW.
2) Nowhere in the deep strike rules does it say that if you are arriving by deep strike you are always arriving from deep strike reserve by default. What it actually says as part of the basic deep strike rules is that to be eligible to deep strike the unit must have started the game in reserve.

 Grey Templar wrote:
and GoI says you arrive immediately by deep strike anywhere on the board.

This is also incorrect. What the GoI rules actually say is that the unit "immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for deep strike" which is not the same as what you are claiming. If the unit were arriving by deep strike the GoI rule would explicitly state this, as for example in the rules for Conjured units which state "the new unit then arrives via deep strike".

The "immediately arrives" part of the rule is an explicit instruction within an advanced rule giving the unit permission to....... immediately arrive, which takes precedence over the parts of the deep strike rules regarding eligibility to deep strike. This means GoI can be successfully manifested for units containing models without the deep strike rule, and which did not start the game in reserve. The "using the rules for deep strike" part is telling you to use the same rules for actually putting the models back on the board, i.e. placement of a model, rolling for scatter etc.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Don't the Deep Strike rules also say the whole unit needs to have the Deep Strike rule, and start the game in Deep Strike Reserves?

They do. Which RAW means that only a unit that has the ability to deep strike normally can use GoI. Not a problem in this situation.

And because GoI says you "immediately arrive" you also enter reserves when you use the power. Thus you satisfy all the requirements for deep striking.

You appear to be advocating that a unit manifesting GoI must follow the deep strike rules in their entirety despite the explicit permission for the unit to immediately arrive (as discussed above). Following your logic, this would mean that a unit manifesting GoI would also have to pass a reserve roll. I'd like to know what would happen if they failed this reserve roll.

 Tonberry7 wrote:


1) Nowhere in the GoI rules does it state that the unit is placed in deep strike reserves. Assuming that they do enter deep strike reserves as part of GoI therefore has no basis in RAW.
2) Nowhere in the deep strike rules does it say that if you are arriving by deep strike you are always arriving from deep strike reserve by default. What it actually says as part of the basic deep strike rules is that to be eligible to deep strike the unit must have started the game in reserve.

As I said before, the Deep Strike rules show a 100% equivalency between arriving by Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves. They say Deep Strike reserves is just another name for Deep Striking.

In case you'd like to see for yourself, look at page 162. Very first paragraph.

I'll even quote it again.

When placing a unit in reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike(sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

As you can see, plain as day. arriving by Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserve.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

This is also incorrect. What the GoI rules actually say is that the unit "immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for deep strike" which is not the same as what you are claiming. If the unit were arriving by deep strike the GoI rule would explicitly state this, as for example in the rules for Conjured units which state "the new unit then arrives via deep strike".

Using the rules for deep strike = deep striking. And as I have proven above, arriving by Deep Strike = Deep Strike reserves.

so deep striking isnt deep striking tonberry?

yup.. great argument... please stop just arguing the "rules as written" without having any written rules to support your position.

Grey has posted very clear rules on this, its not even arbitrary, GW flat out says deep strike = deep strike reserve.

end of story.

your argument is analogous to the following:

"i dont have to reduce my strength because GW said in this maledictions' rules paragraph to reduce my "strength characteristic" as opposed to simply referring to it as "strength".

 easysauce wrote:
so deep striking isnt deep striking tonberry?

yup.. great argument... please stop just arguing the "rules as written" without having any written rules to support your position.

Grey has posted very clear rules on this, its not even arbitrary, GW flat out says deep strike = deep strike reserve.

end of story.

your argument is analogous to the following:

"i dont have to reduce my strength because GW said in this maledictions' rules paragraph to reduce my "strength characteristic" as opposed to simply referring to it as "strength".

Actually, he is saying Strength = Strength Characteristic, in this example. You know, the whole Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserves thing?

GoI tells us to remove the unit from the board, and immediately place the unit anywhere on the board using the Deep Strike rules. When you remove the unit, where does it go before it's placed? Per the Deep Strike rules, the unit is in Deep Strike reserves. If the unit mishaps and is returned the Deep Strike Reserves, how is the unit being "returned" if it didn't start the Deep Strike process from Deep Strike Reserves?

Yes, the rules are not tightly written. Yes, Geedub could have been more explicit in the Deep Strike USR, or the GoI power, or the Teleport Homer. However, they were not. Both RAW and RAI appear to synergize the use of Teleport Homers to support GoI. If Geedub does not want this synergy to occur, they can FAQ or Erreta it.

SJ

jeffersonian... thats what I am saying dude, we are on the same page

You're interpreting the GoI rule wrong. The part of the DS rules used for GoI is NOT the entire thing, otherwise it doesn't work on anything but units who have the deepstrike rule (a bigger issue when looking at other psykers).

GoI utilizes the DS rules for arrival, meaning placement and scatter.

 troa wrote:
You're interpreting the GoI rule wrong. The part of the DS rules used for GoI is NOT the entire thing, otherwise it doesn't work on anything but units who have the deepstrike rule (a bigger issue when looking at other psykers).

GoI utilizes the DS rules for arrival, meaning placement and scatter.

GoI says to use the rules for Deep Striking. However, the last time this came up one htread was more or less locked right away as a duplicate, and the main thread it had spawned off of was locked as it was going nowhere, and the GoI works side refused to engage in honest debate.

GoI confers the DS USR by default. This is irrefutable, because GoI specifically tells us to use the DS rules, and the DS USR can be conferred upon a unit that is bring transported. As soon as GoI is successfully cast, the unit in question is removed from the table, placed in Deep Strike Reserves, one model from the unit is placed anywhere on the table, scatter is addressed, and then the remaining models are placed if no mishap occurred. That is the sequence of steps followed per GoI and DS. GoI allows for the unit to be placed into DS Reserves after deployment, confers the DS USR on to the unit (if it did not already have the USR), and immediately deploys the unit from DS Reserves during the same Psychic phase GoI was cast. If the unit successfully arrive back on the table, the conferred DS USR is lost; however, if the unit mishapped and remained in DS Reserves, the unit would retain the conferred DS USR.

Yes, there is a lot of complexity envolved in the one power, yet in order to execute the power is written, a number of steps must be followed. If those steps are followed, then the blessed unit does infact arrive from DS Reserve, which would allow the unit to benefit from Teleport Homers if the unit was also fully TDA or PA w/ PT.

SJ

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:


1) Nowhere in the GoI rules does it state that the unit is placed in deep strike reserves. Assuming that they do enter deep strike reserves as part of GoI therefore has no basis in RAW.
2) Nowhere in the deep strike rules does it say that if you are arriving by deep strike you are always arriving from deep strike reserve by default. What it actually says as part of the basic deep strike rules is that to be eligible to deep strike the unit must have started the game in reserve.

As I said before, the Deep Strike rules show a 100% equivalency between arriving by Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves. They say Deep Strike reserves is just another name for Deep Striking.

In case you'd like to see for yourself, look at page 162. Very first paragraph.

I'll even quote it again.

When placing a unit in reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike(sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

As you can see, plain as day. arriving by Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserve.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

This is also incorrect. What the GoI rules actually say is that the unit "immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for deep strike" which is not the same as what you are claiming. If the unit were arriving by deep strike the GoI rule would explicitly state this, as for example in the rules for Conjured units which state "the new unit then arrives via deep strike".

Using the rules for deep strike = deep striking. And as I have proven above, arriving by Deep Strike = Deep Strike reserves.

Simply repeating your argument unfortunately doesn't make it correct. In the case of GoI, using the placement rules for deep strike does not mean that the unit was ever placed in deep strike reserves and nothing you have quoted supports this. The rules for GoI make no reference to placing the unit in reserves.

RAW they are correct Tonberry. I realize it after reading it over so many times.

RAI they are not though. I don't know anyone who would play it that way seriously either.

Many rules are similar in the BRB so I am not that thrown off by it.

We know that GoI was meant to teleport any unit it was cast on around the table, regardless of if they have the Deep strike rule or not. GW just wrote it wrong.

 Grey Templar wrote:

When placing a unit in reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike(sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

As you can see, plain as day. arriving by Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserve

You're also completely misinterpreting this quote. What it is actually saying is that when you place a unit in reserve at the start of the game, and intend to deep strike it later, you must tell your opponent this, and it is then classed as being in deep strike reserve.

Even if a GoI unit were arriving via deep strike this would not automatically confer that they had been placed in deep strike reserve as part of the process.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eihnlazer wrote:
We know that GoI was meant to teleport any unit it was cast on around the table, regardless of if they have the Deep strike rule or not. GW just wrote it wrong.

This is also my view. I'm just saying they aren't arriving from deep strike reserve and therefore can't benefit from the teleport homer.

Its you who are misinterpreting it.

It says when a unit arrives by Deep Strike it is arriving from Deep Strike Reserves. That applies whether it was originally placed in reserves or not, and not just to units which were originally placed in reserves like you are claiming.

And unless you can prove otherwise then its not the case.

Gate of Infinity is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Unless the target is Zooming or Swooping, remove the target and his unit from the board. It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike.

It says nothing about getting to ignore the "rules for deep strike" that require the deep strike rule nor the need to start off the board. RAW it is broken. RAI and HYWPI and HIWPI doesn't matter for YMDC.
The "arrives immediately" portion presumably means you do it in the psychic phase and don't need a roll. It does not RAW explicitly state that. Misquoting it doesn't change that, nor does butchering the English language.

I'd play it that it works for all, just like Skyleap lets you deep strike back in T2 after starting on the board.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its you who are misinterpreting it.

It says when a unit arrives by Deep Strike it is arriving from Deep Strike Reserves.

Can you actually cite a rule stating this rather than just assuming it? You still haven't proved that a unit using GoI enters reserves at any time in the process. They are simply moving from one location on the board to another using the rules for deep strike.

 Grey Templar wrote:
That applies whether it was originally placed in reserves or not, and not just to units which were originally placed in reserves like you are claiming.

If you're claiming that all parts of the deep strike rules must be adhered to for GoI, are you saying that the target unit must have been placed in reserve at the start of the game for the power to work? And that they have to make a reserve roll as part of manifesting GoI? What happens if they fail that roll?