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 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its you who are misinterpreting it.

It says when a unit arrives by Deep Strike it is arriving from Deep Strike Reserves.

Can you actually cite a rule stating this rather than just assuming it? You still haven't proved that a unit using GoI enters reserves at any time in the process. They are simply moving from one location on the board to another using the rules for deep strike.

 Grey Templar wrote:
That applies whether it was originally placed in reserves or not, and not just to units which were originally placed in reserves like you are claiming.

If you're claiming that all parts of the deep strike rules must be adhered to for GoI, are you saying that the target unit must have been placed in reserve at the start of the game for the power to work? And that they have to make a reserve roll as part of manifesting GoI? What happens if they fail that roll?

1) I already have cited a rule stating that. Twice. Once in direct response to you. In the very post you quoted. When are you going to cite a rule that proves your side?

2) No roll is required because GoI says "arrive immediately"

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its you who are misinterpreting it.

It says when a unit arrives by Deep Strike it is arriving from Deep Strike Reserves.

Can you actually cite a rule stating this rather than just assuming it? You still haven't proved that a unit using GoI enters reserves at any time in the process. They are simply moving from one location on the board to another using the rules for deep strike.

I think, if he could, he would have done so by now. It's easier to just say you already proved it than to actually prove when there is no rules support on your side and you don't want to concede a point. When you have to hand waive away proofs and rely on selective quotes from multiple sources when something is explicitly spelled out in one section, you've generally got a bad position to start arguing from. This isn't always the case, such as when View A relies on five clauses you can rely on five clauses to build view B, but when view ! is clear from one quote and View B needs to splice a half dozen to cobble together a vague response.... you're generally too close to the issue to see other people's perspectives, much less concede you may be wrong.

Where I am,

DSR is a odd one, really you either believe you don't go into DSR and are just using the deployment rules or you do believe you use it but are then bound by all the restrictions, you have to start the game in DSR and every instance of use after arriving the first time via a roll (as GOI is used when your on the board yeah?) you are bound by all the restriction of arriving from reserves...

Really I don't think it's a well thought out rule. Intent could easily be the former or the latter and much RAW put forward is a bit broken or rules jumpy. I would lean to not entering DSR as seems much like the path of least restraint.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its you who are misinterpreting it.

It says when a unit arrives by Deep Strike it is arriving from Deep Strike Reserves.

Can you actually cite a rule stating this rather than just assuming it? You still haven't proved that a unit using GoI enters reserves at any time in the process. They are simply moving from one location on the board to another using the rules for deep strike.

 Grey Templar wrote:
That applies whether it was originally placed in reserves or not, and not just to units which were originally placed in reserves like you are claiming.

If you're claiming that all parts of the deep strike rules must be adhered to for GoI, are you saying that the target unit must have been placed in reserve at the start of the game for the power to work? And that they have to make a reserve roll as part of manifesting GoI? What happens if they fail that roll?

1) I already have cited a rule stating that. Twice. Once in direct response to you. In the very post you quoted. When are you going to cite a rule that proves your side?

No, you haven't. You keep repeating a line from the deep strike rules that doesn't actually say what you are interpreting it to.

 Grey Templar wrote:
2) No roll is required because GoI says "arrive immediately"

Ok so you're now saying that the "arrives immediately" permission allows you to ignore some parts of the deep strike rules but not others. Are you saying that the target unit must have been placed in reserve at the start of the game for the power to work or can we ignore this too?

If you're now saying they don't have to roll to come in from reserves because the rule gives the explicit permission to "arrive immediately" (which I agree with), how can you possibly maintain the position that they are are still arriving from deep strike reserve? "Immediately" means the unit disappears from their original position and reappears straight away in their new one. They don't make a detour to reserves for a quick cup of tea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nem wrote:
Where I am,

DSR is a odd one, really you either believe you don't go into DSR and are just using the deployment rules or you do believe you use it but are then bound by all the restrictions, you have to start the game in DSR and every instance of use after arriving the first time via a roll (as GOI is used when your on the board yeah?) you are bound by all the restriction of arriving from reserves...

Really I don't think it's a well thought out rule. Intent could easily be the former or the latter and much RAW put forward is a bit broken or rules jumpy. I would lean to not entering DSR as seems much like the path of least restraint.

Exactly. If you accept the RAW that the unit doesn't go into deep strike reserve, and just uses the explicit permission to arrive immediately and use the deep strike rules for placement GoI works perfectly fine.

If you start arguing that they do go into deep strike reserve in order to claim benefit from a teleport homer then you run into a lot of problems.

You ask me to cite a rule I already have, but claim it doesn't say what it very clearly does.

We're obviously done here. I have cited actual rules. You have not, but keep mewling that the rule I have cited says something totally different(yet are unable to provide proof)

I have cited rules backing up my claim. You have not.

 Grey Templar wrote:
You ask me to cite a rule I already have, but claim it doesn't say what it very clearly does.

We're obviously done here. I have cited actual rules. You have not, but keep mewling that the rule I have cited says something totally different(yet are unable to provide proof)

I have cited rules backing up my claim. You have not.

You have also completely ignored clearly stated rules the contradict your position. You have yet to provide a rationale for how GoI uses all of the Deep Strike Rules without the unit having been in Deep Strike Reserve AT THE START OF THE GAME. Which is very clearly a requirement that GoI does not fullfill.

It may or may not require you to start the game in reserves to work.

I have not been trying to touch that part(for what its worth I would agree that RAW it would require the unit to have started the game in reserves), but all I'm here to prove is that GoI can trigger the Teleport Homer and Rites of Teleportation. And I have done that.

If you would be so kind, where are these rules which "clearly contradict my position"?

 Grey Templar wrote:
You ask me to cite a rule I already have, but claim it doesn't say what it very clearly does.

We're obviously done here. I have cited actual rules. You have not, but keep mewling that the rule I have cited says something totally different(yet are unable to provide proof).

No, I'm asking you to cite a rule proving that a unit manifesting GoI is arriving from Deep strike reserve. Which you cannot. Unless you can prove this the unit can't benefit from a teleport homer.

You initially claimed that a GoI unit is arriving via deep strike and using a convoluted logic must therefore be arriving from deep strike reserve. And because they were deep striking they must abide by all of the deep striking rules. More recently you have decided that the GoI rules exempt them from making a reserve roll. You still haven't answered whether the GoI unit has to have started the game in reserve as per the deep strike rules.

Instead of addressing the glaring inconsistencies in your argument you have instead decided to describe me as "mewling". Yes, I think we probably are done here.

All of your sticking points I have clearly dealt with in my argument. Which I will again repeat for you.

Page 162, paragraph 1, line 2, clearly demonstrates that arriving by deep strike = deep strike reserves.

Page 194. Gate of Infinity. "Using the rules for deep strike." This clearly shows that you are indeed arriving by deep strike, which as I proved above also equals deep strike reserves. This satisfies one requirement for the Teleport Homer and the only requirement needed for Rites of Teleportation.

As for needing a reserves roll, that is covered by the line "immediately arrives". No roll is needed because you arrive immediately.

 Grey Templar wrote:
All of your sticking points I have clearly dealt with in my argument. Which I will again repeat for you.

Page 162, paragraph 1, line 2, clearly demonstrates that arriving by deep strike = deep strike reserves.

Page 194. Gate of Infinity. "Using the rules for deep strike." This clearly shows that you are indeed arriving by deep strike, which as I proved above also equals deep strike reserves. This satisfies one requirement for the Teleport Homer and the only requirement needed for Rites of Teleportation.

As for needing a reserves roll, that is covered by the line "immediately arrives". No roll is needed because you arrive immediately.

Pg 162 says no such thing or you would non-selectively quote it.
Gate of Infinity says:

remove the target and his unit from the board. It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike.

It does NOT say they go into deep strike reserve. It says they must follow the Deep Strike rules. Reasonable people would assume the "arrives immediately" lets you not wait until the beginning of your next turn and most will let you skip the roll to arrive too. That's HIWPI, but that is NOT RAW. Most people will also accept that RAW GoI is broken and won't work on anyone that did NOT start the game in Reserves, but play by a RAI method where they can, even if they don't have the DS rule on the unit/psyker. That is NOT however, RAW.

If someone reads their book and they believe they see toughness ten on all their models, and if they can get their opponent to believe them then they get to be T10 too. If you believe you you don't have to follow the actual rules as written and your opponent knowingly wants to handicap himself by giving you an advantage or if you are willing to deceive them into giving you a more favorable set of rules, then you are free to do that. HYPWI is HYWPI and not RAW and not YMDC.

Yes it does say exactly such a thing.

It says units arriving by deep strike is sometimes called deep strike reserves. Its in plain English.

All you've said is ''nuh uh, it doesn't say that'' without showing any support for your claim.

 Grey Templar wrote:
All of your sticking points I have clearly dealt with in my argument. Which I will again repeat for you.

Page 162, paragraph 1, line 2, clearly demonstrates that arriving by deep strike = deep strike reserves.

It doesn't demonstrate that at all. What it demonstrates is that when you place a unit in reserve at the start of the game, and intend to deep strike it later, you must tell your opponent this, and it is then classed as being in deep strike reserve.

What I understand your interpretation to be is "if a unit arrives by deep strike at any point in the game, the unit is treated as having arrived from deep strike reserves for all rules purposes". Which is simply not supported by RAW.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Page 194. Gate of Infinity. "Using the rules for deep strike." This clearly shows that you are indeed arriving by deep strike, which as I proved above also equals deep strike reserves. This satisfies one requirement for the Teleport Homer and the only requirement needed for Rites of Teleportation.

Here you are just compounding your error. GoI makes no mention of entering reserves at all and you have not proved that they do so by virtue of deep striking. If they were even arriving via deep strike as part of GoI and not just using the same rules for placing the models.

 Grey Templar wrote:
As for needing a reserves roll, that is covered by the line "immediately arrives". No roll is needed because you arrive immediately.

Precisely. No roll is needed because you arrive immediately and don't enter reserves at all. Even for a nanosecond. "Immediately" means nothing happens inbetween removing the models and replacing them using the deep strike rules.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
It says units arriving by deep strike is sometimes called deep strike reserves. Its in plain English.

Seriously, you're just repeatedly misquoting this to suit your argument. It doesn't say that at all. It's referring to placing units in reserve that will deep strike in the future, and not indicating that the act of actually deep striking and being placed in deep strike reserves are the same thing.

Deep strike reserves is just a term to distinguish between units placed in reserve at the start of the game that will be deep striking, from units placed in reserve that will come on via their table edge. The distinction is made because you are obliged to infrom your opponent which units will arrive from reserve via deep strike. All units that are placed in deep strike reserve at the start of the game must arrive via deep strike, but this doesn't mean the reverse is automatically true, i.e. that all units using rules for deep strike have arrived from deep strike reserves.

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."

I don't know about you guys, but that's pretty convincing to me. I'm sure people can read into it and, after parsing and pulling out grammar dictionaries, decide that it doesn't mean what it seems to mean. But if the terms are being used synonymously, then I see it as fairly cut and dry.

Ex) "When placing Space Marines on the table, you must tell your opponent if they are equipped with Bolters (sometimes called Boltguns)."

I don't understand the confusion.

DoW

 DogOfWar wrote:
"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."

I don't know about you guys, but that's pretty convincing to me. I'm sure people can read into it and, after parsing and pulling out grammar dictionaries, decide that it doesn't mean what it seems to mean. But if the terms are being used synonymously, then I see it as fairly cut and dry.

Ex) "When placing Space Marines on the table, you must tell your opponent if they are equipped with Bolters (sometimes called Boltguns)."

I don't understand the confusion.

DoW

So if they are the same thing, if you place a unit in deep strike reserve at the start of the game, they are also arriving by deep strike at the same time? Logic dictates you would then have to deep strike them straight away at the start of the game. This makes no sense.

 DogOfWar wrote:
"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."

I don't know about you guys, but that's pretty convincing to me. I'm sure people can read into it and, after parsing and pulling out grammar dictionaries, decide that it doesn't mean what it seems to mean. But if the terms are being used synonymously, then I see it as fairly cut and dry.

Ex) "When placing Space Marines on the table, you must tell your opponent if they are equipped with Bolters (sometimes called Boltguns)."

I don't understand the confusion.

DoW

There's another way to look at that quote. There are many ways a unit can arrive via Deep Strike. Sometimes the way it arrives is by Deep Strike Reserve. Other times it can Deep Strike by means of an ability like Gate of Infinity. The two are not necessarily equal. Looking at the book it seems clear to me that the rule is describing how to place a unit into reserves if you wish to deploy them via Deep Strike. It then tells you how to deploy via Deep Strike. If you are using Gate of Infinity then you can just skip to the part about arriving via Deep Strike.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
So if they are the same thing, if you place a unit in deep strike reserve at the start of the game, they are also arriving by deep strike at the same time? Logic dictates you would then have to deep strike them straight away at the start of the game. This makes no sense.

I think that's exactly what they're saying, at least that's how I interpret it.

I think the intention was that any unit that Deep Strikes will always either be arriving from Reserves, or treated as if they are arriving from Reserves. That seems to make sense given the writers specifically indicated that Deep Strike is considered synonymous with Deep Strike Reserve. If that's the case, then even a unit that gains the ability to use the rules for Deep Strike via a circuitous means (e.g. Gate of Infinity) follows all the same rules for Deep Strike Reserves, barring any specifically mentioned exceptions (arriving immediately, etc.).

Maybe it's not what they intended, but it certainly seems to be a much simpler way of resolving GoI and any other situations that don't exactly follow the basic Deep Strike Reserves mechanic. Occam's Razor and all that jazz.

DoW

 DogOfWar wrote:
Maybe it's not what they intended, but it certainly seems to be a much simpler way of resolving GoI and any other situations that don't exactly follow the basic Deep Strike Reserves mechanic. Occam's Razor and all that jazz.

Intent doesn't matter much in a thread that is revived and reworded repeatedly. RAW Gate of Infinity it is broken and doesn't work for anything that doesn't meet the Deep Strike rules requirements to:
1) Have the deep strike rule.
2) start off the table in deep strike reserve.

Further, in neither case RAW do GoI guys go through DSR (arrives immediately, not after brunch in DSR land) and thus they are NOT eligible for teleport homers on that basis.

RAI it should work, but that means that Hawks works too, to DSR in automatically T2 after a T1 Skyleap.

That's HIWPI and others will as has been pointed out, but that is not RAW correct.

Frankly, I'm surprised a certain someone in this thread doesn't just decide that they can ignore the scatter portion of the DS rules too. Why not deep strike them into someone else transport while you are at it and cite the out of context snippet of "arrives anywhere on the board" for fifteen pages to justify it.

Why on earth would I argue that they ignore scatter? Nothing at all suggests they would ignore that part of the DS rules. Only the need to roll for reserves is completely ignored.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Why on earth would I argue that they ignore scatter? Nothing at all suggests they would ignore that part of the DS rules. Only the need to roll for reserves is completely ignored.

Who said I meant you? Sounds like a guilty conscience to me.

 DogOfWar wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
So if they are the same thing, if you place a unit in deep strike reserve at the start of the game, they are also arriving by deep strike at the same time? Logic dictates you would then have to deep strike them straight away at the start of the game. This makes no sense.

I think that's exactly what they're saying, at least that's how I interpret it.

I'm interested how you actually propose to implement this during a game. Do you, for example, say during deployment, "I'm putting this unit of terminators in deep strike reserve. But the rules say that deep strike reserve is the same as deep striking so I'm going to deep strike them now as part of my deployment." You surely can't seriously think this is right.

 DogOfWar wrote:
I think the intention was that any unit that Deep Strikes will always either be arriving from Reserves, or treated as if they are arriving from Reserves.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion regarding intent, which may or may not be correct, but there is no rules support for this.

 DogOfWar wrote:
That seems to make sense given the writers specifically indicated that Deep Strike is considered synonymous with Deep Strike Reserve.

Except they didn't, this is again just your opinion. They are two separate rules. Why would having the deep strike rule and starting the game in deep strike reserve be listed as two separate requirements to be eligible to deep strike?

 DogOfWar wrote:
If that's the case, then even a unit that gains the ability to use the rules for Deep Strike via a circuitous means (e.g. Gate of Infinity) follows all the same rules for Deep Strike Reserves, barring any specifically mentioned exceptions (arriving immediately, etc.).

Maybe it's not what they intended, but it certainly seems to be a much simpler way of resolving GoI and any other situations that don't exactly follow the basic Deep Strike Reserves mechanic. Occam's Razor and all that jazz.

DoW

The simplest way to resolve GoI would be to do exactly as instructed and remove the unit from the board, then immediately place them elsewhere using the deep strike rules for scatter, mishaps etc. Like you say, the "arriving immediately" is a specific exception to some of the deep strike rules. So no, you don't need to roll for reserves (because they don't enter reserves). You can check to see if they have the deep strike rule and if they started the game in deep strike reserves if you like, but GoI still dictates that they arrive immediately.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Lots of words

It was indeed my opinion. I think it was fairly clear that I was expressing that when I used words like "I think" and "it seems to be." I'm sorry that you were confused, but I'm glad we cleared it up.

If you would like to have a RAW argument, I'm sure Grey Templar will be happy to oblige.

DoW

 DogOfWar wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Lots of words

It was indeed my opinion. I think it was fairly clear that I was expressing that when I used words like "I think" and "it seems to be." I'm sorry that you were confused, but I'm glad we cleared it up.

If you would like to have a RAW argument, I'm sure Grey Templar will be happy to oblige.

DoW

There is no confusion, at least on my part. You were fairly clear in that you claim

 DogOfWar wrote:
the writers specifically indicated that Deep Strike is considered synonymous with Deep Strike Reserve.

when in fact they didn't.

If you don't feel comfortable discussing the RAW, that's fine. Thanks for your input anyway, it was most constructive. Especially this part:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Lots of words

Oh, my apologies. I thought you'd be able to remember what you said. Try not to get too upset, this is a game about toy soldiers, after all.

I quoted the rule from the rulebook. That is the only RAW I stated. You're free to interpret as you wish, but those are indeed the Rules as Written.

Here it is again, word for word, in case you missed it:

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."

Everything else is conjecture, as is my opinion on the matter.

DoW

 DogOfWar wrote:
Oh, my apologies. I thought you'd be able to remember what you said. Try not to get too upset, this is a game about toy soldiers, after all.

I quoted the rule from the rulebook. That is the only RAW I stated. You're free to interpret as you wish, but those are indeed the Rules as Written.

Here it is again, word for word, in case you missed it:

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."

Everything else is conjecture, as is my opinion on the matter.

DoW

Now I really am confused. I remember perfectly fine what I said and I'm certainly not upset. Did you have anything to actually add to the debate or do you just want to continue sniping at me given your rules arguments have fallen to pieces?

Turn the snark down, folks. If you can't play nice in here, I'll take your toys away.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Now I really am confused. I remember perfectly fine what I said and I'm certainly not upset. Did you have anything to actually add to the debate or do you just want to continue sniping at me given your rules arguments have fallen to pieces?

You were obviously upset that I didn't quote your entire post. It's also fairly obvious that you were offended that I quoted "lots of words," (you wouldn't have addressed it if you weren't) so you have my genuine apologies. I don't like long quotes and breaking up your various comments would have been too tedious, especially since my response was very simple. It was not intended as a personal insult.

Seriously though, I've read through many of your comments and I think you really do need to relax a little. This forum isn't a battle or a competition, it's a way for people to learn more about the rules. It's really not designed to be a dick-measuring contest, even though many people seem to think it is. Getting angry and combative online is about as productive as keying your own car.

Back on topic, the original question was whether Teleport Homers and Rites of Teleportation work with GoI. The stumbling point (as I see it) is whether a unit that is in Deep Strike is also considered to be in Reserves. I see a quoted rule in the book that says the two terms—namely Deep Strike Reserve and Deep Strike—are used synonymously. That's enough for me to determine that if a unit is affected by a rule that forces them to Deep Strike at some point in the game, they are considered to be (if only for a moment) in Deep Strike Reserves.

If you disagree, that's fine, and I promise you I won't judge you for it. This being said, neither side has 'proven' anything with any degree of concreteness. Is it still nebulous? Of course. So it seems that we'll all have to choose how we want to play it based on the limited information we have.

To make it abundantly clear, given the sparse RAW that is available in the Rulebook, my RAI and HIWPI is that GoI can benefit from Rites of Teleportation and Teleport Homers.

DoW

 DogOfWar wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Now I really am confused. I remember perfectly fine what I said and I'm certainly not upset. Did you have anything to actually add to the debate or do you just want to continue sniping at me given your rules arguments have fallen to pieces?

You were obviously upset that I didn't quote your entire post. It's also fairly obvious that you were offended that I quoted "lots of words," (you wouldn't have addressed it if you weren't) so you have my genuine apologies. I don't like long quotes and breaking up your various comments would have been too tedious, especially since my response was very simple. It was not intended as a personal insult.

I can assure you I didn't take it as a personal insult, no apology is required. I actually found it quite amusing. If anything, a dismissive description of someone elses views as "lots of words" can only really detract from the strength of an argument.

 DogOfWar wrote:
Seriously though, I've read through many of your comments and I think you really do need to relax a little. This forum isn't a battle or a competition, it's a way for people to learn more about the rules. It's really not designed to be a dick-measuring contest, even though many people seem to think it is. Getting angry and combative online is about as productive as keying your own car.

I completely agree. It's hard to judge someones mood through an online post but I think in this case you may be interpreting conviction of opinion with anger. I'd also agree that many people prefer to start sniping at others instead of presenting a rational argument, unfortunately when this happens it makes it harder to have a reasoned discussion about the rules in question.

 DogOfWar wrote:
Back on topic, the original question was whether Teleport Homers and Rites of Teleportation work with GoI. The stumbling point (as I see it) is whether a unit that is in Deep Strike is also considered to be in Reserves. I see a quoted rule in the book that says the two terms—namely Deep Strike Reserve and Deep Strike—are used synonymously. That's enough for me to determine that if a unit is affected by a rule that forces them to Deep Strike at some point in the game, they are considered to be (if only for a moment) in Deep Strike Reserves.

Yes. Firstly, to better understand your position, I'm curious as to what you mean exactly when you say "in Deep Strike". Do you mean a unit that is in the process of Deep Striking or one that has been placed in Deep Strike Reserve? I'm assuming the former but please correct me if I'm wrong.

Regarding that oft-quoted line from the deep strike rules, I think that it could certainly have been more clearly worded, but don't agree that it is defining that arriving by Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves are the same thing. Arriving by Deep Strike is a method of deploying a unit on the board, while Deep Strike Reserves is a term used to describe units placed in Reserves that have been nominated to arrive by Deep Strike at such time that they are deployed. The distinction between Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves is a necessary one as the rules require you to tell your opponent which of your Reserves will be arriving via Deep Strike.

Any unit placed in Deep Strike Reserves therefore must arrive via Deep Strike when they deploy, but there is no logical or RAW basis to dictate that the reverse must be true for a unit starting the turn on the board - i.e. that a unit Deep Striking due to GoI must have arrived from Deep Strike Reserves. After all, the GoI unit was not in reserves when the power was manifested, and there is no mention within the GoI rules of ever entering Deep Strike Reserves as part of resolving the power, even for a moment. Furthermore, I believe the phrase "immediately arrives" within the GoI rules demonstrates that once the unit is removed from the board, they effectively instantaneously appear at their chosen location without ever entering Reserves in between.

My position remains that because the GoI unit never enters Deep Strike Reserve and therefore is not arriving from Deep Strike Reserve in resolving the power, that it cannot benefit from a Teleport Homer.

 DogOfWar wrote:
If you disagree, that's fine, and I promise you I won't judge you for it. This being said, neither side has 'proven' anything with any degree of concreteness. Is it still nebulous? Of course. So it seems that we'll all have to choose how we want to play it based on the limited information we have.

Yes, agreed, ultimately how we want to play any particular rule is a free choice. It is a game after all.

tonberry7 wrote:I completely agree. It's hard to judge someones mood through an online post but I think in this case you may be interpreting conviction of opinion with anger. I'd also agree that many people prefer to start sniping at others instead of presenting a rational argument, unfortunately when this happens it makes it harder to have a reasoned discussion about the rules in question.

Thank you for clarifying your views.

I think that perhaps the key point in this situation is that some people aren't interested in arguing. Some are, of course (and I can certainly be in the mood for a good debate every now and then), but sometimes people are really just interested in voicing their view so that others can add it to the meat of their own discussion. I really hope it doesn't sound harsh, but my original comment wasn't directed towards you at all. You felt the need to address it, however, and while I really don't mean to be rude, I don't care what you think about my reading of this particular rule. I appreciate you taking the time to address it, of course, but I made the mistake of allowing you to draw me into the argument.

I shared my view and how I would play the issue, but I really should have left the thread at that point. It was my mistake for engaging with you and I'll have to file that one away for next time.

DoW

Sometimes I wish there was a way to report, in order to reward, polite behavior on this board....

 DogOfWar wrote:

tonberry7 wrote:I completely agree. It's hard to judge someones mood through an online post but I think in this case you may be interpreting conviction of opinion with anger. I'd also agree that many people prefer to start sniping at others instead of presenting a rational argument, unfortunately when this happens it makes it harder to have a reasoned discussion about the rules in question.

Thank you for clarifying your views.

I think that perhaps the key point in this situation is that some people aren't interested in arguing. Some are, of course (and I can certainly be in the mood for a good debate every now and then), but sometimes people are really just interested in voicing their view so that others can add it to the meat of their own discussion. I really hope it doesn't sound harsh, but my original comment wasn't directed towards you at all. You felt the need to address it, however, and while I really don't mean to be rude, I don't care what you think about my reading of this particular rule. I appreciate you taking the time to address it, of course, but I made the mistake of allowing you to draw me into the argument.

I shared my view and how I would play the issue, but I really should have left the thread at that point. It was my mistake for engaging with you and I'll have to file that one away for next time.

DoW

And I really thought we were going to stick to the topic from now on. I addressed your initial post as I didn't think you were interpreting things correctly, and wanted to try and discuss the reasons why. Isn't that the whole point of a debate?

If you didn't want anyone to discuss your views, or if you don't care what anyone else thinks, is there even any point in entering a rules debate?