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Hey!

With the new GK and SW codexes, I've decided to include an alpha strike element in my force consisting of 20 purifiers in two drop pods dropping T1 to use cleansing flame. Now I wonder, because of how brutal 4 Cleansing Flames could be (will throw approx 5WC on each, so 3 should go off without issue), is there amy point in including incinerators?

The drop zones should be rather cleared, although this can be somwhat mitigated by them running before shooting T1. What I do wonder is if I should keep them more TAC since they more effectively threaten 3+save units in cc with their swords, and their stormbolters allows them to fire at a distance as well.

Opinions?

Aren't incinerators only 5 points each? Why not give 2 in each 10 man squad an incinerator? You'd still have 8 guys with storm bolters and power swords per squad then which sounds good to me.

Oh wait a minute though, psychic phase is before shooting right. Your nova power could theoretically kill too many dudes in weak squads so that your incinerator won't have the range to kill that much stuff. Hmm...

Super Newb wrote:
Your nova power could theoretically kill too many dudes in weak squads so that your incinerator won't have the range to kill that much stuff. Hmm...

That's definitely going to happen - cleansing flame will cut an arc into the unit you're attack, and so you'll have really bad angles for using the incinerator. You would probably have better luck using psycannon. And on turn 2 you can conga-line some of your purifiers another 6" out to use cleansing flame again, while keeping your psycannon gunners standing still so that they can fire at full effect.

 DanielBeaver wrote:

Super Newb wrote:
Your nova power could theoretically kill too many dudes in weak squads so that your incinerator won't have the range to kill that much stuff. Hmm...

That's definitely going to happen - cleansing flame will cut an arc into the unit you're attack, and so you'll have really bad angles for using the incinerator. You would probably have better luck using psycannon. And on turn 2 you can conga-line some of your purifiers another 6" out to use cleansing flame again, while keeping your psycannon gunners standing still so that they can fire at full effect.

Ok. Seems like incinerators wouldn't be the best bet then. Either no special weapons to keep them cheap, or psycannons, but probably only 2 per 10 guys...

Super Newb wrote:
Ok. Seems like incinerators wouldn't be the best bet then. Either no special weapons to keep them cheap, or psycannons, but probably only 2 per 10 guys...

Unless you're tight on points, I would max out the number of special weapons they take. Psycannons are worth their points, and you can hide them in the back of the squad so that they stay alive for a turn or two.

 DanielBeaver wrote:

Super Newb wrote:
Ok. Seems like incinerators wouldn't be the best bet then. Either no special weapons to keep them cheap, or psycannons, but probably only 2 per 10 guys...

Unless you're tight on points, I would max out the number of special weapons they take. Psycannons are worth their points, and you can hide them in the back of the squad so that they stay alive for a turn or two.

Salvo weapons are the exact opposite of what you want on an assault unit. Purifiers need to get close, fry their target with Cleansing Flame/Incinerator, then assault the remnants and consolidate toward the next target.

Incinerators all day long.

Just a quick question: why not consider psilencers?

You can technically slap all of them into a single combat squad with 4 psilencers to put the hurt on multi-wound infantry/cavalry/beasts. With that number of shots, you might even make heavier monsterous creatures break a sweat

Well, if you have a single Pod with Purifiers, take 2 incinerators.
The only alternative is 2 psycannons. However, psilencers are too situational.

Are they though? 2 incinerators is great if you can get really close... But with the changes to template weapons only being able to kill models within their range, they did take a bit of a hit.... They are still really good for purifiers, but I would prefer those weapons on interceptors.

People keep saying psilencers are very situational, but they are pretty good vs lightly armoured hordes (plenty of those around) and multi-wound units such as TWC (especially with TH/SS, they'll be a hard counter to most of our termies), summoned doggies, tau battlesuits (not riptides, that's just hopeing for the best if you shoot them), IG heavy weapon teams,...

I would say the psycannon is way worse than psilencers ever could be on PAGK. First thing people think about when they see psilencer, is shooting big, high T, high save MCs. But that would be about as dumb as shooting missile launchers at land raiders. Just don't do that...

Noob question: Is there a thing that lets a unit cast the same power twice in the GK codex? I didn't think you could spam the same power.

Mavnas wrote:
Noob question: Is there a thing that lets a unit cast the same power twice in the GK codex? I didn't think you could spam the same power.

Its in the rule book, a unit can cast a power only once per turn.
Casting cleansing flame two times in one round by a Purifier unit would be too much.

No, but you can put 10 in a drop pod and combat squad them from that point on.

So you'd get 4 dice out of 1 unit and the ability to cast it twice out of a 10 man squad with 1 droppod.

 Elmir wrote:
No, but you can put 10 in a drop pod and combat squad them from that point on.

So you'd get 4 dice out of 1 unit and the ability to cast it twice out of a 10 man squad with 1 droppod.

Indeed, this is a common tactics.
This can double the effectiveness.
If you face a horde army, 4 incinerators can do a lot a damage vs. an Ork mob say.

Aye, we're talking 4 combat squads in two drop pods comming down to unleash 4*cleansing flame. I want them to be able to assault the turn after, and pagk psycannons have lost that ability. I just wondered if people would consider it too much to add incinerators, since the novas' devestation could leave them targetless.

That's one of the reasons why I'm considering psilencers in that. Combat squatting them so 4 are in a single unit, they still have a healthy 24" range along with 24 shots (good against anything really), along with a possible force on it... and you won't be cramped for space as much.

Template range is a huge factor that prevents spamming incinerators from being too viable. I'm just not a fan on the salvo psycannon, although 4 of them in a combat squad could work on turn 2.

The issue with psilencers is that T1 they have to snapfire. 24 shots means 4 hits at s4 ap-. You get 1 and 1/3 s4 hits more than with storm bolters, at a cost of 40 point and 4 nemesis force weapons. If I then want to assault next turn (say to kill a tyranid MC next to the hordes I mutilated) I can't fire at all. Granted, if I would stay still I'd get 16 s4 hits next turn, but I want to move closer to the enemy to use cleansing flame again vs the same targets the psilencers go for.

Considering that incinerators only 5 points each and their advantages over storm bolters are numerous (Strength, AP, Wall of Fire, No Escape) I'd take them.

Also remember that Cleansing Flame is 2 WC power, meaning that if you want to get 3 off, you need to dedicate at least 4 WC per casting (3 WC= 50% chance, 4 WC = 69% chance, 5 WC = 82% chance of success).
Which is starts to be non-trivial amounts of Warp Charges.

The cons of the incinerator are twofold: 1, you lose ap3 and possible Force on 2 (3 on the charge) cc attacks, and 2, you run the risk of clearing a zone with cleansing flame before the incinerators can be utilized, while a storm bolter can hit units beyond 8".

And indeed, it requires quite the WC:s. However, in my current 2K list I generate 20 warp charges, which the cleansing flames use up. The libre demonica allows re-rolls of 1:s as well.

Psyker henchmen spam helps a lot.

It's exactly that reason why I think combat squatting 4 psilencers in one unit isn't necesarily a bad thing.

First off, like you already pointed out... getting full use out of ALL those 4 incinerators would be very hard under 7th edition rules. The range of the template screws them over. Extra casualties from your cleansing flames won't help there either, like TompiQ pointed out.

Secondly, it's very unlikely that you can keep casting 4 cleansing flames every single turn. Aiming to cast 3 reliably is probably a better bet, especially with dice not being as endless a resource as they once were.

Thirdly, losing AP3 attacks isn't as much of an issue if you split them so that there's a more dedicated CC squad and a more dedicated "shooty" squad afterwards. I think that may just be efficient. The alpha strike capacity of a psilencer is considerably less, but you can play them a lot more conservatively than just tossing everything withing 1-3" of your enemy.

I've not tested it out yet, but I think you'll be able to get more out of a "pseudo purgation" squad that way.

I am a bit lost, where exactly are you getting that combat squadding gives 4 special weapons in one unit of purifiers?

When you combat squad, you can split up a unit of 10 man into 5 man units. You decide what models go where before the game starts. It doesn't say anywhere that the special weapons have to be split evenly.

"You must decide which units are splitting into combat squads, and which models go into each combat squad, immediately before determining your Warlord Traits."

Seeing how purifiers are 2 specials per 5 man, you can just decide to slap all 4 of them into a single squad, and let the other run off freely to do as they please. That's how we've always been playing it at least, are we missing something?

I accidentially compared 4 psilencers to two stormbolters earlier: on the drop, you get 4 s4ap- hits with psilencers, and 5 1/3 s4ap5 hits with 4 stormbolters. In the next turn, the opponent can easily kill off the psilencers without much effort with only one ablative wound. Of course all other purifiers could be killed of just as easily, but they would contribute more to the alpha strike for less points. The incinerator could be fired at full potential immediately, and is sort cheap, so it is a plausible option. I just worry that it'd lose too much efficiency due to all the cleansing flames.

Honestly, I would probably go with Incinerators or Psycannons with leaning more towards the Incinerators. Psycannons are great on Interceptors but the Interceptors can move 12" a turn and I have always been in Salvo range with them. Purifiers might be a tad different because it would be harder for them to keep in range. Psilencers to me are out of the question for anyone except Purgation because they are heavy weapons thus snap shots unless you don't move which completely misses the point on Purifiers. Incinerators would possibly be a better choice as well but the range difference and Cleansing Flame might make them a bit pointless but what happens if Cleansing Flame doesn't go off? It is two Warp Charges and has a high probability. Incinerators make a good insurance policy and are quite fluffy for a Purifier.

 Elmir wrote:
When you combat squad, you can split up a unit of 10 man into 5 man units. You decide what models go where before the game starts. It doesn't say anywhere that the special weapons have to be split evenly.

"You must decide which units are splitting into combat squads, and which models go into each combat squad, immediately before determining your Warlord Traits."

Seeing how purifiers are 2 specials per 5 man, you can just decide to slap all 4 of them into a single squad, and let the other run off freely to do as they please. That's how we've always been playing it at least, are we missing something?

Nope, you are absolutely correct. I could have swore that it capped at 2 specials(you know, to not make purgation squads pointless). Double checked the rules and you're absolutely right about the numbers, that was my bad. And combat squadding is entirely up to you, my confusion came from my mis-remembering of the rules. I learn something new every day on these forums!

 troa wrote:
I am a bit lost, where exactly are you getting that combat squadding gives 4 special weapons in one unit of purifiers?

This comes up quite natural.
It is possible to combat squad a full unit into two equal sized units upon arrival of the Pod.
How you assign the modules to the units is your responsibility. There is no restriction here.

 troa wrote:


Nope, you are absolutely correct. I could have swore that it capped at 2 specials(you know, to not make purgation squads pointless). Double checked the rules and you're absolutely right about the numbers, that was my bad. And combat squadding is entirely up to you, my confusion came from my mis-remembering of the rules. I learn something new every day on these forums!

Hehe, you are welcome. You can have some fun stuff with combat squads. Especially with heavy weapons. It gets really close to "split fire" that way. You double up on your WC generation and you can get some funky small units, like interceptors with 2 incinerators in one unit, while the other runs off with a combination of hammers and halberds to put the beat down on enemy armor for instance.