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Doesn't it seem like GW is throwing the actual game into the pooper? With the release of the rules in End Times: Nagash, the semblance of actual armies and factions and even attempts at balance in general has been thrown out the window, with the combination of Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings, and Unbound. Will all three Chaos factions become one Chaos Legions? Will the Empire, Bretonnia, Dwarfs and High Elves become one "Good Guy Legions"? This is very off-putting I think. I want it to remain like it is, with 15 distinct factions to play as and against, not 5 "mega factions" that would look stupid on the tabletop and break the game.

Lore of Undeath to all armies? what.

50% Lords & Heroes? Why would they go back to Herohammer?

I fear for 9th Edition of Fantasy, the game would be perfect with a few minor tweaks to some rules. Instead they will probably change around and break the entire game...

Right now I just pray that GW will die and be sold to Hasbro so they can be run Wizards of the Coast-style.

The 50% lord thing only applies to End of Times campaign games. The lore of undeath is not really that powerful outside of Nagash using it, and well he wont see a lot of play at his point level. Its still up in the air whether any of this actually applies to the WHFB base ruleset at all... and I would look to TOs will more than likely reserve these rules for special tournament (like the occasional that we have now that include SoM) and exclude the whole book from most play.

The 50% Lord and Heroes thing applies to all games. Nowhere does it say it only applies to campaign games--and in fact for several campaign scenarios, you take the specific characters outside of the percentages.

Except the big title on the page where it states the percentages as "Armies of the End Times". No where does it say outside of "End Times" games do those percentages apply.

 quickfuze wrote:
Except the big title on the page where it states the percentages as "Armies of the End Times". No where does it say outside of "End Times" games do those percentages apply.

CHOOSING AN ARMY
This section updates the rules for how to pick an army for games of Warhammer. Just as the Lore of Undeath is available to any Wizard, all armies use these rules for choosing an army.

So unless you want to argue that the Lore of Undeath is "only available for campaign play"...

Again you are quoting rules found on pg21 under the Title "Armies of the End Times"....

Let me give you a scenario involving you and me and a phone call to play WHFB..

Me: Hello?
You: Hey man...wanted to see if you wanted to meet for a game of WHFB?
Me: Sure....what point level?
You: 3000
Me: 3000...okay; are we using Grand Army rules?
You: Yes...

Okay in this scenario I know that even though we are playing 3000 points, we have also stipulated that the Grand Army rules will be in effect. This makes certain adjustments to the army selection rules and restrictions.

Now again...

Me: Hello?
You: Hey man...wanted to see if you wanted to meet for a game of WHFB?
Me: Sure....what point level?
You: 3000
Me: 3000...okay; are we using End Times armies?
You: Yes...

Okay again I know that we are playing 3000 points and that the End Times armies rules and restrictions are in effect. No where does this change the brb rules restictions for the percentage system in normal games. Until either a 9th edition release, or an Errata to the 8th BrB.

Your first example requires no stipulation, as it's written that if a game is at that point value, Grand Army rules are allowed by default. No agreement required.

The Nagash book says it updates the rules for how to pick armies for games of Warhammer. Not games in the Warhammer End Times Campaign, not any of the Scenarios in the Nagash book, but Warhammer, flat out.

 nels1031 wrote:
Your first example requires no stipulation, as it's written that if a game is at that point value, Grand Army rules are allowed by default. No agreement required.

The Nagash book says it updates the rules for how to pick armies for games of Warhammer. Not games in the Warhammer End Times Campaign, not any of the Scenarios in the Nagash book, but Warhammer, flat out.

No it doesn't state that, if it was that clear cut, these discussions would not be occurring. The rules you are citing appear under the entry Armies of the End Times, not Armies of Warhammer Fantasy Battles or any wording thereof.

Armies of the End Times is a supplement for people wanting to run Undead as one faction with some different rules. It itself, in a way, is a whole new army. It's like Storms of Magic, something anyone can use.

Or like in 40k. Anyone can play with an Imperial Knight, but it comse down to "Hey, can you not use that? I'd rather not fight that right." which is a very reasonable thing to do in ALL cases of playing these games.

I, personally, will be using pure Tomb Kings run by Nagash and Arkhan the Black in whatever games I feel, and it's perfectly legal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 quickfuze wrote:


No it doesn't state that, if it was that clear cut, these discussions would not be occurring. The rules you are citing appear under the entry Armies of the End Times, not Armies of Warhammer Fantasy Battles or any wording thereof.

There do, in fact, exist special campaign settings for using models out of this supplement. They work very, very differently. Heck, there's a mission where Nagash alone fights Settra and a regiment of tomb kings. The rules update any OTHER game played in WHFB. Including regular games.

Also, don't worry about this guy. I feel bad for the people who have to play with him in his local group. As for literally anyone else, feel free to play with the supplement you purchased. If your opponent asks otherwise, then so be it. But come to a conclusion beforehand.

 quickfuze wrote:

 nels1031 wrote:
Your first example requires no stipulation, as it's written that if a game is at that point value, Grand Army rules are allowed by default. No agreement required.

The Nagash book says it updates the rules for how to pick armies for games of Warhammer. Not games in the Warhammer End Times Campaign, not any of the Scenarios in the Nagash book, but Warhammer, flat out.

No it doesn't state that, if it was that clear cut, these discussions would not be occurring. The rules you are citing appear under the entry Armies of the End Times, not Armies of Warhammer Fantasy Battles or any wording thereof.

These discussions happen because many people are incapable of reading and incapable of talking to their opponents before hand to make an agreement.


So here goes for those without the book, from Warhammer: Nagash


CHOOSING AN ARMY
This section updates the rules for how to pick an army for games of WARHAMMER, OK? (Added by me for clarification, this is because as from this release all armies are armies of the end times, every army in the Warhammer world are now considered armies of the end times as they are all mentioned in the book, this is this is the new Warhammer, these events are happening NOW to all the armies in Warhammer). Just as the lore of Undeath is available to all Wizards. All armies use these rules for choosing an army, OK?


SO TO SUMMARISE
All armies feature and are affected by events in The End Times, all armies can play any scenario in Warhammer Nagash, Undead Legions can be played in normal games of Warhammer, all armies are considered armies of the end times as of this book Warhammer: Nagash as it updates the rules for Warhammer. This is happening now in the world of Warhammer so man the barricades the End Times are now upon you. Because as a WOC player, we're gonna get you, we're gonna get you, you feeble unworthy maggots, death will reign upon this world and all life, unlife and God shall perish under my hand, for I am Archaon the Everchosen, Lord of the End Times.



Though all this is irrelevant unless you never speak to an opponent before a game (that's for those mythical thousands of PUG games that happen all the time of course), if you do actually speak to your opponent you are free to play Warhammer any way that pleases you and your opponent.

I dont see how the 50% changes anything. We play standard 4k games. none of us would ever drop 2k on lords anyhow. You cant win combat res and will just get wiped out. maybe if you are playing in micro games the Herohammer syndrome can happen but this has zero affect on our games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I dont see how the 50% changes anything. We play standard 4k games. none of us would ever drop 2k on lords anyhow. You cant win combat res and will just get wiped out. maybe if you are playing in micro games the Herohammer syndrome can happen but this has zero affect on our games.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Armies of the End Times is a supplement for people wanting to run Undead as one faction with some different rules. It itself, in a way, is a whole new army. It's like Storms of Magic, something anyone can use.

"Armies of the End Times" is a heading for a section of the book. It's not something new, it's not a supplement, it's not "like Storms of Magic" or anything like that.
The Campaign Scenarios are the thing which would require both players have to agree to play as it requires specific army lists, specific characters(which are taken if the models are available, with certain models being not counting against the percentage points limit for Lords or Heroes).

Or like in 40k. Anyone can play with an Imperial Knight, but it comse down to "Hey, can you not use that? I'd rather not fight that right." which is a very reasonable thing to do in ALL cases of playing these games.

It's really not though. Knights, like Nagash, are not as gamebreaking as most people make them out to be. They require a bit more killing than some previously existing items but they can die all the same.

I, personally, will be using pure Tomb Kings run by Nagash and Arkhan the Black in whatever games I feel, and it's perfectly legal.

Actually it's not if you read the Undead Legions army list on page 20.
"Arkhan the Black" is not in the listing of who you can take. He is replaced by "Arkhan the Black, Mortarch of Sacrament". Arkhan loses his level 5 Wizard status from his TK profile as he has surrendered the Book of Nagash which gave him that status.

Seriqolm wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:

 nels1031 wrote:
Your first example requires no stipulation, as it's written that if a game is at that point value, Grand Army rules are allowed by default. No agreement required.

The Nagash book says it updates the rules for how to pick armies for games of Warhammer. Not games in the Warhammer End Times Campaign, not any of the Scenarios in the Nagash book, but Warhammer, flat out.

No it doesn't state that, if it was that clear cut, these discussions would not be occurring. The rules you are citing appear under the entry Armies of the End Times, not Armies of Warhammer Fantasy Battles or any wording thereof.

These discussions happen because many people are incapable of reading and incapable of talking to their opponents before hand to make an agreement.


So here goes for those without the book, from Warhammer: Nagash


CHOOSING AN ARMY
This section updates the rules for how to pick an army for games of WARHAMMER, OK? (Added by me for clarification, this is because as from this release all armies are armies of the end times, every army in the Warhammer world are now considered armies of the end times as they are all mentioned in the book, this is this is the new Warhammer, these events are happening NOW to all the armies in Warhammer). Just as the lore of Undeath is available to all Wizards. All armies use these rules for choosing an army, OK?


SO TO SUMMARISE
All armies feature and are affected by events in The End Times, all armies can play any scenario in Warhammer Nagash, Undead Legions can be played in normal games of Warhammer, all armies are considered armies of the end times as of this book Warhammer: Nagash as it updates the rules for Warhammer. This is happening now in the world of Warhammer so man the barricades the End Times are now upon you. Because as a WOC player, we're gonna get you, we're gonna get you, you feeble unworthy maggots, death will reign upon this world and all life, unlife and God shall perish under my hand, for I am Archaon the Everchosen, Lord of the End Times.



Though all this is irrelevant unless you never speak to an opponent before a game (that's for those mythical thousands of PUG games that happen all the time of course), if you do actually speak to your opponent you are free to play Warhammer any way that pleases you and your opponent.

All armies are Armies of the End Times when participating in either End Times games, or the End Times Campaign and scenarios. Again, until there is an official Errata to the BrB or a 9th edition release that alters the base percentages, this changes nothing in normal games.

 Kanluwen wrote:

I, personally, will be using pure Tomb Kings run by Nagash and Arkhan the Black in whatever games I feel, and it's perfectly legal.

Actually it's not if you read the Undead Legions army list on page 20.
"Arkhan the Black" is not in the listing of who you can take. He is replaced by "Arkhan the Black, Mortarch of Sacrament". Arkhan loses his level 5 Wizard status from his TK profile as he has surrendered the Book of Nagash which gave him that status.

Umm, yes? I said Arkhan the Black simply because I didn't feel like typing out his whole new name. I have his new model as well as Nagash, and plan on using both of them as much as possible.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Umm, yes? I said Arkhan the Black simply because I didn't feel like typing out his whole new name. I have his new model as well as Nagash, and plan on using both of them as much as possible.

Just wanting to make sure you were aware of that.

quickfuze wrote:All armies are Armies of the End Times when participating in either End Times games, or the End Times Campaign and scenarios. Again, until there is an official Errata to the BrB or a 9th edition release that alters the base percentages, this changes nothing in normal games.

How, exactly, do you "participate in End Times games"?

They do not need to release an errata. It says right there in black and white that it is an update to the BRB.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Umm, yes? I said Arkhan the Black simply because I didn't feel like typing out his whole new name. I have his new model as well as Nagash, and plan on using both of them as much as possible.

Just wanting to make sure you were aware of that.

quickfuze wrote:All armies are Armies of the End Times when participating in either End Times games, or the End Times Campaign and scenarios. Again, until there is an official Errata to the BrB or a 9th edition release that alters the base percentages, this changes nothing in normal games.

How, exactly, do you "participate in End Times games"?

They do not need to release an errata. It says right there in black and white that it is an update to the BRB.

Uh no it does not, nowehere does it state that this is specifically an update the BrB nor 8th edition

 quickfuze wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Umm, yes? I said Arkhan the Black simply because I didn't feel like typing out his whole new name. I have his new model as well as Nagash, and plan on using both of them as much as possible.

Just wanting to make sure you were aware of that.

quickfuze wrote:All armies are Armies of the End Times when participating in either End Times games, or the End Times Campaign and scenarios. Again, until there is an official Errata to the BrB or a 9th edition release that alters the base percentages, this changes nothing in normal games.

How, exactly, do you "participate in End Times games"?

They do not need to release an errata. It says right there in black and white that it is an update to the BRB.

Uh no it does not, nowehere does it state that this is specifically an update the BrB nor 8th edition

Pg. 21 of the Nagash book: "Choosing an Army. This section updates the rules for how to pick an army for games of Warhammer. Just as the Lore of Undeath is available to any Wizard, all armies use these rules for choosing an army."

I don't know how many times and how many people need to point this out to you. Just accept that people can now just play this army whenever they want to. Maybe not in Tournaments, no. But for fun? Yes, very much so.

 quickfuze wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Umm, yes? I said Arkhan the Black simply because I didn't feel like typing out his whole new name. I have his new model as well as Nagash, and plan on using both of them as much as possible.

Just wanting to make sure you were aware of that.

quickfuze wrote:All armies are Armies of the End Times when participating in either End Times games, or the End Times Campaign and scenarios. Again, until there is an official Errata to the BrB or a 9th edition release that alters the base percentages, this changes nothing in normal games.

How, exactly, do you "participate in End Times games"?

They do not need to release an errata. It says right there in black and white that it is an update to the BRB.

Uh no it does not, nowehere does it state that this is specifically an update the BrB nor 8th edition

Warhammer: Nagash Page 21 wrote:CHOOSING AN ARMY
This section updates the rules for how to pick an army for games of Warhammer. Just as the lore of Undeath is available to any Wizard, all armies use these rules for choosing an army.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Umm, yes? I said Arkhan the Black simply because I didn't feel like typing out his whole new name. I have his new model as well as Nagash, and plan on using both of them as much as possible.

Just wanting to make sure you were aware of that.

quickfuze wrote:All armies are Armies of the End Times when participating in either End Times games, or the End Times Campaign and scenarios. Again, until there is an official Errata to the BrB or a 9th edition release that alters the base percentages, this changes nothing in normal games.

How, exactly, do you "participate in End Times games"?

They do not need to release an errata. It says right there in black and white that it is an update to the BRB.

Uh no it does not, nowehere does it state that this is specifically an update the BrB nor 8th edition

Warhammer: Nagash Page 21 wrote:CHOOSING AN ARMY
This section updates the rules for how to pick an army for games of Warhammer. Just as the lore of Undeath is available to any Wizard, all armies use these rules for choosing an army.

Not seeing anything in what you just quoted that states BRB nor 8th edition anything... further from the GW website product description: "Warhammer: Nagash Book 2 is a 96-page volume that contains new scenarios and rules based on the events in Warhammer: Nagash Book 1."

So again the rules are designed to allow you to replay the events and encounters (scenarios) that are presented to you in the Fluff book.

further "Armies of the End Times can also field more Lords - up to 50% - and the brand new spell lore - The Lore of Undeath - allows every wizard, mage and sorcerer to wield the fell magic unleashed by Nagash"

Specifically they call out Armies of the End Times can also field more lords. More lords than who? Oh you mean normal warhammer armies that are not Armies of the End Times? They wouldn't have to differentiate if it was an update.

And finally, they don't even list Nagash under the Rules and Expansions section of their website....its is specifically listed under the Campaigns section

 quickfuze wrote:

Warhammer: Nagash Page 21 wrote:CHOOSING AN ARMY
This section updates the rules for how to pick an army for games of Warhammer. Just as the lore of Undeath is available to any Wizard, all armies use these rules for choosing an army.

Not seeing anything in what you just quoted that states BRB nor 8th edition anything... further from the GW website product description: "Warhammer: Nagash Book 2 is a 96-page volume that contains new scenarios and rules based on the events in Warhammer: Nagash Book 1."

So again the rules are designed to allow you to replay the events and encounters (scenarios) that are presented to you in the Fluff book.

further "Armies of the End Times can also field more Lords - up to 50% - and the brand new spell lore - The Lore of Undeath - allows every wizard, mage and sorcerer to wield the fell magic unleashed by Nagash"

Specifically they call out Armies of the End Times can also field more lords. More lords than who? Oh you mean normal warhammer armies that are not Armies of the End Times? They wouldn't have to differentiate if it was an update.

And finally, they don't even list Nagash under the Rules and Expansions section of their website....its is specifically listed under the Campaigns section

This from the White Dwarf Blog..

"It’s worth pointing out right now that these books are no ordinary books; they’re not army books or campaign tales. These are the future of Warhammer, the first steps on the road to the End Times"


If you do not feel that this is the new Warhammer rules then I suggest you fire of a nice email to Games Workshop tomorrow and they'll clarify it for you and the rest of us will carry on as we've stated in this thread, OK?

History has shown that firing off an email to GW does nothing. The customer service personnel are not design team members. Further if you, me and another person all submit the exact same question it is very possible that we would all receive different responses (this has actually happened in the past).

 quickfuze wrote:
History has shown that firing off an email to GW does nothing. The customer service personnel are not design team members. Further if you, me and another person all submit the exact same question it is very possible that we would all receive different responses (this has actually happened in the past).

Don't send it to customer service send into one of the White Dwarf team all their emails are on the contents page.

Seriously quickfuze, stop hijacking this thread. I wanted to have a reasonable discussion about how people feel about the direction that Fantasy is taking.

 Marzillius wrote:
Seriously quickfuze, stop hijacking this thread. I wanted to have a reasonable discussion about how people feel about the direction that Fantasy is taking.

A terrible one. It allows for far more d-baggery than fluffiness.

Right now, it smells...no...stinks like 9th will be SoM. New Lore. More allowance for characters. Magic is the weakest part of 8th and making magic stronger would be the one worst mistake you could make.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Right now, it smells...no...stinks like 9th will be SoM. New Lore. More allowance for characters. Magic is the weakest part of 8th and making magic stronger would be the one worst mistake you could make.

All ninth needs to be is a supplement. If they release an entire edition that's really different from the current one, I think the majority of people will just continue using eighth, with the necessary tweaks to get it to work for them.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Right now, it smells...no...stinks like 9th will be SoM. New Lore. More allowance for characters. Magic is the weakest part of 8th and making magic stronger would be the one worst mistake you could make.

I've been playing 8th for a year now and all I've read is that Magic is overpowered and 6 dicing is the bane of the edition and now its the weakest? Seriqolm is confused I thought the Internet was a resource of the truth?

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Marzillius wrote:
Seriously quickfuze, stop hijacking this thread. I wanted to have a reasonable discussion about how people feel about the direction that Fantasy is taking.

A terrible one. It allows for far more d-baggery than fluffiness.

Elaborate, please.

Well, if anything ET:N seems to have injected some momentum into the game. I have had a few people who were convinced that they would not play it all of a sudden considering an Undead army of Nagash. Only problem is what to do for units like skeletons, which is a huge investment to getting some large units out for those things.

I honestly wonder if GW is putting more point costed models like Nagash with this whole 50 percent rule to help ease the balance a bit by having someone buy a high point character and then fill out the rest as seen fit because VC is one of the armies that gets hit hard with high model count to cost ratio.

Ultimately to me it comes down to confidence in this game. This year has been quite the tight clench of the buttocks wondering where this game is going to go. Is it 9th edition this year? Oh wait, 40k seems to have to have an edition to 'fix' their recent one for all that did. Well, maybe a Bretonnian book after the Wood Elves? Space Wolves... Grey Knights... sigh. Top off with all the crazy rumors flying around and the question of whether this game was going to undergo some massive overhaul has led to uncertainty and fear of change. And now all of a sudden they drop this out of the blue. I am glad that they are trying something, but whether it is better for the game as a whole in the long run will be something I will have to wait and see.

 quickfuze wrote:

Seriqolm wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:

 nels1031 wrote:
Your first example requires no stipulation, as it's written that if a game is at that point value, Grand Army rules are allowed by default. No agreement required.

The Nagash book says it updates the rules for how to pick armies for games of Warhammer. Not games in the Warhammer End Times Campaign, not any of the Scenarios in the Nagash book, but Warhammer, flat out.

No it doesn't state that, if it was that clear cut, these discussions would not be occurring. The rules you are citing appear under the entry Armies of the End Times, not Armies of Warhammer Fantasy Battles or any wording thereof.

These discussions happen because many people are incapable of reading and incapable of talking to their opponents before hand to make an agreement.


So here goes for those without the book, from Warhammer: Nagash


CHOOSING AN ARMY
This section updates the rules for how to pick an army for games of WARHAMMER, OK? (Added by me for clarification, this is because as from this release all armies are armies of the end times, every army in the Warhammer world are now considered armies of the end times as they are all mentioned in the book, this is this is the new Warhammer, these events are happening NOW to all the armies in Warhammer). Just as the lore of Undeath is available to all Wizards. All armies use these rules for choosing an army, OK?


SO TO SUMMARISE
All armies feature and are affected by events in The End Times, all armies can play any scenario in Warhammer Nagash, Undead Legions can be played in normal games of Warhammer, all armies are considered armies of the end times as of this book Warhammer: Nagash as it updates the rules for Warhammer. This is happening now in the world of Warhammer so man the barricades the End Times are now upon you. Because as a WOC player, we're gonna get you, we're gonna get you, you feeble unworthy maggots, death will reign upon this world and all life, unlife and God shall perish under my hand, for I am Archaon the Everchosen, Lord of the End Times.



Though all this is irrelevant unless you never speak to an opponent before a game (that's for those mythical thousands of PUG games that happen all the time of course), if you do actually speak to your opponent you are free to play Warhammer any way that pleases you and your opponent.

All armies are Armies of the End Times when participating in either End Times games, or the End Times Campaign and scenarios. Again, until there is an official Errata to the BrB or a 9th edition release that alters the base percentages, this changes nothing in normal games.

There is no such thing as an 'End Times game' there is nothing in the book which indicates that it is optional. If you choose NOT to play with it, then that is between you and your opponent, just like everything in this game, however the fact of the matter is that the official position of GW is that this is the new Warhammer Fantasy.

 quickfuze wrote:
History has shown that firing off an email to GW does nothing. The customer service personnel are not design team members. Further if you, me and another person all submit the exact same question it is very possible that we would all receive different responses (this has actually happened in the past).

Cool bro, stick your fingers in your ears and keep screaming if thats what the want. Nobody is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to play this way, but this is the new WHFB, and it will be the new WHFB going forward.

Seriqolm wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Right now, it smells...no...stinks like 9th will be SoM. New Lore. More allowance for characters. Magic is the weakest part of 8th and making magic stronger would be the one worst mistake you could make.

I've been playing 8th for a year now and all I've read is that Magic is overpowered and 6 dicing is the bane of the edition and now its the weakest? Seriqolm is confused I thought the Internet was a resource of the truth?

Yup, my local meta has quit because Magic is too powerful in 8th, other peoples metas have quit because its too weak, my opinion is that 8th edition is pretty solid (aside from the insistence that we all use massive unwieldy bricks of infantry) and everyone is just bitching for the sake of bitching.