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chaos0xomega wrote:
everyone is just bitching for the sake of bitching.

This is at least 75% of every single argument on the internet.

Seriqolm wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Right now, it smells...no...stinks like 9th will be SoM. New Lore. More allowance for characters. Magic is the weakest part of 8th and making magic stronger would be the one worst mistake you could make.

I've been playing 8th for a year now and all I've read is that Magic is overpowered and 6 dicing is the bane of the edition and now its the weakest? Seriqolm is confused I thought the Internet was a resource of the truth?

Magic is ridiculously overpowered in vanilla WHFB. Magic is the weakest part of the rules from a rule writing perspective.

 Sigvatr wrote:

Seriqolm wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Right now, it smells...no...stinks like 9th will be SoM. New Lore. More allowance for characters. Magic is the weakest part of 8th and making magic stronger would be the one worst mistake you could make.

I've been playing 8th for a year now and all I've read is that Magic is overpowered and 6 dicing is the bane of the edition and now its the weakest? Seriqolm is confused I thought the Internet was a resource of the truth?

Magic is ridiculously overpowered in vanilla WHFB. Magic is the weakest part of the rules from a rule writing perspective.

OK That makes more sense though I really don't agree at all as I find it way to easy to dispel my spells and when I do decide to go for the big one I miscast to often so I shy away from the big spells. I find the augmentation and hex spells to be much more effective with my WOC.

Seriqolm wrote:

OK That makes more sense though I really don't agree at all as I find it way to easy to dispel my spells and when I do decide to go for the big one I miscast to often so I shy away from the big spells. I find the augmentation and hex spells to be much more effective with my WOC.

Let me phrase it another way - Take a 2,000 point army. Nothing compells you to take a wizard rather than spending those points on..... let's say a rank or two of an infantry regiment.

I could do the same in 40k - swapping out a high level marine librarian for a small squad of marines with an assault weapon. This strikes me as a pretty fair trade.

What happens if you have a warhammer fantasy army where the enemy brought a decent wizard and you brought none?
Because in my experience, the answer is "lose horribly".

I don't insist that you can throw together an army out of any units in any combination, but you shouldn't be unable to succeed without magic to the level you are in the current rules.
Even Magic Resistance doesn't help - because increasing your ward save is great in theory.....if only the spells that really mattered allowed you a ward save. They don't.

locarno24 wrote:

Seriqolm wrote:

OK That makes more sense though I really don't agree at all as I find it way to easy to dispel my spells and when I do decide to go for the big one I miscast to often so I shy away from the big spells. I find the augmentation and hex spells to be much more effective with my WOC.

Let me phrase it another way - Take a 2,000 point army. Nothing compells you to take a wizard rather than spending those points on..... let's say a rank or two of an infantry regiment.

I could do the same in 40k - swapping out a high level marine librarian for a small squad of marines with an assault weapon. This strikes me as a pretty fair trade.

What happens if you have a warhammer fantasy army where the enemy brought a decent wizard and you brought none?
Because in my experience, the answer is "lose horribly".

I don't insist that you can throw together an army out of any units in any combination, but you shouldn't be unable to succeed without magic to the level you are in the current rules.
Even Magic Resistance doesn't help - because increasing your ward save is great in theory.....if only the spells that really mattered allowed you a ward save. They don't.

Being a WOC player I could say the same about shooting and warmachines which I struggle against Doom Divers being an example of a real PITA. You also do not need a Wizard to dispell spells your army can do it, I also have CC characters that can take a dispell scroll, do other armies not have this? so you can still mitigate a lot of magic and the big spells cannot be set off in CC so if you have a CC army you should be in combat a quick as you can thus negating the effect of the big spells.

 Sigvatr wrote:

Seriqolm wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Right now, it smells...no...stinks like 9th will be SoM. New Lore. More allowance for characters. Magic is the weakest part of 8th and making magic stronger would be the one worst mistake you could make.

I've been playing 8th for a year now and all I've read is that Magic is overpowered and 6 dicing is the bane of the edition and now its the weakest? Seriqolm is confused I thought the Internet was a resource of the truth?

Magic is ridiculously overpowered in vanilla WHFB. Magic is the weakest part of the rules from a rule writing perspective.

I mean, the way I see it, you have different kinds of players. Personally, I use magic to buff/debuff, and very rarely "6-dice" anything, unless it's a high casting value (Empowered Desiccation. Infernal Gateway, etc.). Then I've seen one or two people at my local stores that just spend their magic phases 6-dicing large Purple Suns all game. That's the kind of guy you just don't wanna play with.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

Seriqolm wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Right now, it smells...no...stinks like 9th will be SoM. New Lore. More allowance for characters. Magic is the weakest part of 8th and making magic stronger would be the one worst mistake you could make.

I've been playing 8th for a year now and all I've read is that Magic is overpowered and 6 dicing is the bane of the edition and now its the weakest? Seriqolm is confused I thought the Internet was a resource of the truth?

Magic is ridiculously overpowered in vanilla WHFB. Magic is the weakest part of the rules from a rule writing perspective.

I mean, the way I see it, you have different kinds of players. Personally, I use magic to buff/debuff, and very rarely "6-dice" anything, unless it's a high casting value (Empowered Desiccation. Infernal Gateway, etc.). Then I've seen one or two people at my local stores that just spend their magic phases 6-dicing large Purple Suns all game. That's the kind of guy you just don't wanna play with.

I six diced purple sun once. Admittedly, I gained another 12 power dice from the attribute and proceeded to take off All the characters in a VC army. That's beside the point though, the point is, magic can be powerful. I've 2 diced a spirit leech which took off hierophant, because of irresistible force. Magic itself isn't powerful. The spells and randomness are.

Yeah - This is just bad.

Now that all armies can summon undead...

So End times is a free-for-all desperate attempt to get everyone to buy new expensive models. Because that worked with Storm of Magic so well?

I actually thought the Nagash campaign/soucrebook was pretty cool looking and a step in the right direction - but this just reeks of more desperate scrambling for cash.

 Cryptek of Awesome wrote:
Yeah - This is just bad.

Now that all armies can summon undead...

So End times is a free-for-all desperate attempt to get everyone to buy new expensive models. Because that worked with Storm of Magic so well?

I actually thought the Nagash campaign/soucrebook was pretty cool looking and a step in the right direction - but this just reeks of more desperate scrambling for cash.

Umm, in all honesty, is someone is not running Nagash, or anyone from the book, using the Lore of Undeath is a dumb move. It's like Daemonology from 40k. Yes, anyone CAN use it, but how effective is it, really? It would be wizards dedicated to it, and you only get a mediocre amount of points, and a 12" range. And then that's not power dice going towards vital buffs or damage towards your opponent. Seems like a waste, if you ask me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

Seriqolm wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Right now, it smells...no...stinks like 9th will be SoM. New Lore. More allowance for characters. Magic is the weakest part of 8th and making magic stronger would be the one worst mistake you could make.

I've been playing 8th for a year now and all I've read is that Magic is overpowered and 6 dicing is the bane of the edition and now its the weakest? Seriqolm is confused I thought the Internet was a resource of the truth?

Magic is ridiculously overpowered in vanilla WHFB. Magic is the weakest part of the rules from a rule writing perspective.

I mean, the way I see it, you have different kinds of players. Personally, I use magic to buff/debuff, and very rarely "6-dice" anything, unless it's a high casting value (Empowered Desiccation. Infernal Gateway, etc.). Then I've seen one or two people at my local stores that just spend their magic phases 6-dicing large Purple Suns all game. That's the kind of guy you just don't wanna play with.

I six diced purple sun once. Admittedly, I gained another 12 power dice from the attribute and proceeded to take off All the characters in a VC army. That's beside the point though, the point is, magic can be powerful. I've 2 diced a spirit leech which took off hierophant, because of irresistible force. Magic itself isn't powerful. The spells and randomness are.

Well, yeah. As I also play Daemons, randomness alone can cause some crazy OP stuff, but also in the reverse. Getting a miscast is still getting a miscast, which is bad. So there is some balance to it. Though, I think they should change all the "test or die" spells to at least give Ward saves. That would kinda help.

BUT, at the same time, they have those spells to deal with incredibly powerful things that are obnoxiously hard to kill in the first place. So, I dunno...

As a wood elf I am not finding much use for the changes in army composition; on the other hand, armies like chaos, vampire counts, and maybe skaven, I can see take advantage of the extra lords/hero allowance: more greater daemons, for example.
I don't think many will find much use in the lore of Undeath, simply because while you can create new units, you can't grow them. Since they are going to be small, they are going to fold quite quickly as soon as the enemy charges them. Personally I'd mostly use them to gain another shooting phase. Even then, my eagles and fast cavalry already do this for me, but more efficiently. Maybe Empire would find the lore more useful.
All in all I am glad they are pushing out different scenarios; I think it's a good way to mix up the game so that it stays fresh, while providing new background content for those interested. It also lets them experiment with things they probably wouldn't try if they had to release an edition to include the rules. I think I'd enjoy events like the End of Times every couple of years or so.

If Fantasy is really selling as badly as rumors say it is (I've heard/read that world wide sales of Fantasy are 50% of the 40K market in North America. 50% of one market...), then yeah, I can see GW beginning to realize that they have priced Fantasy right out of the league for a new player.

So they take this incremental step of saying "50% of your army can now be Lords choices! And oh, look! Here is a $100 Lord Choice model..." If you go for the 50% Lords, you are fielding in many cases, far fewer models then normal. You won't have to paint as many models, nor will you have to transport as many. In other words, your army footprint will be smaller. Now the fun part- you could have spent $100 on 3-4 unit boxes of 10 guys, or you can spend $100 on a single model. Notice how GW still gets the same amount of money? But psychologically, you are fooled into believing that the one model is a better deal. It also helps a bit that said model has some pretty solid, good rules, AND its a spectacular model on the table.Say what you will about the rules, but GW sure can make a pretty model.

I bet we'll see 2-3 more supplements like Nagash. I won't pretend to even guess how they will be made up, but I'd bet any army that has a "Bad Ass" in the Fantasy Fluff will get the Nagash treatment. It'll all culminate in one big, last desperate campaign book where everyone will be fighting for the fate of the world. And then... BOOM. 9th Edition.

This is the first step. Can you guess what the next step is? Any 40K players here? UNBOUND. Bring what ever you want to play with. The most important rule is to have fun. Welcome to 9th Edition Fantasy. If you can't see that happening, then you are truly deaf and blind to the way GW does business.

This is all presuming though, that Warhammer Fantasy makes a turn around and starts selling again. Otherwise, Nagash might very well be the End Times for Warhammer Fantasy.

 Tamwulf wrote:
If Fantasy is really selling as badly as rumors say it is (I've heard/read that world wide sales of Fantasy are 50% of the 40K market in North America. 50% of one market...), then yeah, I can see GW beginning to realize that they have priced Fantasy right out of the league for a new player.

So they take this incremental step of saying "50% of your army can now be Lords choices! And oh, look! Here is a $100 Lord Choice model..." If you go for the 50% Lords, you are fielding in many cases, far fewer models then normal. You won't have to paint as many models, nor will you have to transport as many. In other words, your army footprint will be smaller. Now the fun part- you could have spent $100 on 3-4 unit boxes of 10 guys, or you can spend $100 on a single model. Notice how GW still gets the same amount of money? But psychologically, you are fooled into believing that the one model is a better deal. It also helps a bit that said model has some pretty solid, good rules, AND its a spectacular model on the table.Say what you will about the rules, but GW sure can make a pretty model.

I bet we'll see 2-3 more supplements like Nagash. I won't pretend to even guess how they will be made up, but I'd bet any army that has a "Bad Ass" in the Fantasy Fluff will get the Nagash treatment. It'll all culminate in one big, last desperate campaign book where everyone will be fighting for the fate of the world. And then... BOOM. 9th Edition.

This is the first step. Can you guess what the next step is? Any 40K players here? UNBOUND. Bring what ever you want to play with. The most important rule is to have fun. Welcome to 9th Edition Fantasy. If you can't see that happening, then you are truly deaf and blind to the way GW does business.

This is all presuming though, that Warhammer Fantasy makes a turn around and starts selling again. Otherwise, Nagash might very well be the End Times for Warhammer Fantasy.

Uhh, the Nagash book is very well done and is extremely invigorating for Fantasy, and if they do more like it, I'll probably purchase them for the sheer fluff alone. And there are tons of Undead players out there that are excited again and are pulling out their TK and VC to play. That's one of the things I like about Fantasy over 40k, the fluffy lists that you can make, and the campaigns you can run. So what if they charge 100 bucks for a new models. It's an awesome looking models, with decent rules, and you'll only ever need to buy one.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

Seriqolm wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Right now, it smells...no...stinks like 9th will be SoM. New Lore. More allowance for characters. Magic is the weakest part of 8th and making magic stronger would be the one worst mistake you could make.

I've been playing 8th for a year now and all I've read is that Magic is overpowered and 6 dicing is the bane of the edition and now its the weakest? Seriqolm is confused I thought the Internet was a resource of the truth?

Magic is ridiculously overpowered in vanilla WHFB. Magic is the weakest part of the rules from a rule writing perspective.

I mean, the way I see it, you have different kinds of players. Personally, I use magic to buff/debuff, and very rarely "6-dice" anything, unless it's a high casting value (Empowered Desiccation. Infernal Gateway, etc.). Then I've seen one or two people at my local stores that just spend their magic phases 6-dicing large Purple Suns all game. That's the kind of guy you just don't wanna play with.

I six diced purple sun once. Admittedly, I gained another 12 power dice from the attribute and proceeded to take off All the characters in a VC army. That's beside the point though, the point is, magic can be powerful. I've 2 diced a spirit leech which took off hierophant, because of irresistible force. Magic itself isn't powerful. The spells and randomness are.

The first one sounds like a player that put all his eggs in one basket.

Also at least magic is counterable, and deals with big blocks. The main issue I find is Artillery, I mean monsters are barely taken because Artillery is so breaking to them, nor giant lord mounts and the like.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

Seriqolm wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Right now, it smells...no...stinks like 9th will be SoM. New Lore. More allowance for characters. Magic is the weakest part of 8th and making magic stronger would be the one worst mistake you could make.

I've been playing 8th for a year now and all I've read is that Magic is overpowered and 6 dicing is the bane of the edition and now its the weakest? Seriqolm is confused I thought the Internet was a resource of the truth?

Magic is ridiculously overpowered in vanilla WHFB. Magic is the weakest part of the rules from a rule writing perspective.

I mean, the way I see it, you have different kinds of players. Personally, I use magic to buff/debuff, and very rarely "6-dice" anything, unless it's a high casting value (Empowered Desiccation. Infernal Gateway, etc.). Then I've seen one or two people at my local stores that just spend their magic phases 6-dicing large Purple Suns all game. That's the kind of guy you just don't wanna play with.

I six diced purple sun once. Admittedly, I gained another 12 power dice from the attribute and proceeded to take off All the characters in a VC army. That's beside the point though, the point is, magic can be powerful. I've 2 diced a spirit leech which took off hierophant, because of irresistible force. Magic itself isn't powerful. The spells and randomness are.

The first one sounds like a player that put all his eggs in one basket.

Also at least magic is counterable, and deals with big blocks. The main issue I find is Artillery, I mean monsters are barely taken because Artillery is so breaking to them, nor giant lord mounts and the like.

You mean me purple sunning through an ENTIRE VC army? Literally, one flank to another.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:
If Fantasy is really selling as badly as rumors say it is (I've heard/read that world wide sales of Fantasy are 50% of the 40K market in North America. 50% of one market...), then yeah, I can see GW beginning to realize that they have priced Fantasy right out of the league for a new player.

So they take this incremental step of saying "50% of your army can now be Lords choices! And oh, look! Here is a $100 Lord Choice model..." If you go for the 50% Lords, you are fielding in many cases, far fewer models then normal. You won't have to paint as many models, nor will you have to transport as many. In other words, your army footprint will be smaller. Now the fun part- you could have spent $100 on 3-4 unit boxes of 10 guys, or you can spend $100 on a single model. Notice how GW still gets the same amount of money? But psychologically, you are fooled into believing that the one model is a better deal. It also helps a bit that said model has some pretty solid, good rules, AND its a spectacular model on the table.Say what you will about the rules, but GW sure can make a pretty model.

I bet we'll see 2-3 more supplements like Nagash. I won't pretend to even guess how they will be made up, but I'd bet any army that has a "Bad Ass" in the Fantasy Fluff will get the Nagash treatment. It'll all culminate in one big, last desperate campaign book where everyone will be fighting for the fate of the world. And then... BOOM. 9th Edition.

This is the first step. Can you guess what the next step is? Any 40K players here? UNBOUND. Bring what ever you want to play with. The most important rule is to have fun. Welcome to 9th Edition Fantasy. If you can't see that happening, then you are truly deaf and blind to the way GW does business.

This is all presuming though, that Warhammer Fantasy makes a turn around and starts selling again. Otherwise, Nagash might very well be the End Times for Warhammer Fantasy.

Uhh, the Nagash book is very well done and is extremely invigorating for Fantasy, and if they do more like it, I'll probably purchase them for the sheer fluff alone. And there are tons of Undead players out there that are excited again and are pulling out their TK and VC to play. That's one of the things I like about Fantasy over 40k, the fluffy lists that you can make, and the campaigns you can run. So what if they charge 100 bucks for a new models. It's an awesome looking models, with decent rules, and you'll only ever need to buy one.

Invigorating? Did you SEE the lists I'd run for it?

You mean me purple sunning through an ENTIRE VC army? Literally, one flank to another.

I am surprised that you managed to get close enough with your wizard without them charging you and keeping you from casting the Vortex at close range..Or that every single character he had failed an initiative test.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

You mean me purple sunning through an ENTIRE VC army? Literally, one flank to another.

I am surprised that you managed to get close enough with your wizard without them charging you and keeping you from casting the Vortex at close range..Or that every single character he had failed an initiative test.

A level 4 on a dark pegasus is quite hard to pin down. And I never said that every character failed the tests. I just put it through the entire army.

 thedarkavenger wrote:


Invigorating? Did you SEE the lists I'd run for it?

Umm, I don't think I want to. Knowing that you're a competitive gamer, you'd probably do some stupid stuff for it. I simply run it for fluff and narrative purposes, and for fun mostly. Plus, I run straight TK, nothing VC included.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

You mean me purple sunning through an ENTIRE VC army? Literally, one flank to another.

I am surprised that you managed to get close enough with your wizard without them charging you and keeping you from casting the Vortex at close range..Or that every single character he had failed an initiative test.

It's easy to do in uncomped WHFB. The problem is that magic death bombs are the downright best tactic against a few armies. If you can get a strong caster in casting range against an army that is very open to Do-or-Dumb spells, such as OK or Undead armies, you just have to get close, puke out dice and watch them fall in droves.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:


Invigorating? Did you SEE the lists I'd run for it?

Umm, I don't think I want to. Knowing that you're a competitive gamer, you'd probably do some stupid stuff for it. I simply run it for fluff and narrative purposes, and for fun mostly. Plus, I run straight TK, nothing VC included.

My normal army dances around, avoiding combat, and dwellersing stuff off. In End Times, that becomes a dancy, avoidy, dwellers-y, final transmutation-y, and purple sun-y filth.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:


Invigorating? Did you SEE the lists I'd run for it?

Umm, I don't think I want to. Knowing that you're a competitive gamer, you'd probably do some stupid stuff for it. I simply run it for fluff and narrative purposes, and for fun mostly. Plus, I run straight TK, nothing VC included.

My normal army dances around, avoiding combat, and dwellersing stuff off. In End Times, that becomes a dancy, avoidy, dwellers-y, final transmutation-y, and purple sun-y filth.

Uhhh, and how do you get Final Transmutation? Nothing in either army can take Lore of Metal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nevermind, my brain was thinking you'd be using the Undead. Forgot you could use it with every other army.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Uhhh, and how do you get Final Transmutation? Nothing in either army can take Lore of Metal.

Forbidden Lore for VC lets you do it.

For a player just getting into fantasy it seems a little overwhelming, don't get me wrong all story developments sound really interesting. Starting off with high elves and I am loving them so far but I am worried that with all these changes I will never stand a chance if I decide to go to any local grand tournaments. On the positive side there has been an increase in interest from 40k players in making the switch at my flgs.

I've been playing since 7th edition with the (then new) 7th edition VC as my first army. I'm pretty happy with where 8th is right now. I'd say a tweak of for every 1k points over 2k you get another d6 for power dice and the cap is raised by 6 would make it scale better. That aside if they drop 9th on my next year I may turn into the guy that just stops keeping up with it and plays an old edition.

Now if these End Time books turn into rules/army updates for 8th providing those small tweaks then maybe I can get on board. The price of some of these models is getting pretty steep for me to justify though so I guess I'll just have to see what happens.