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Made in gb
Nurgle Veteran Marine with the Flu






RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
As the rules for Deep Striking don't give explicit permission for GoI users to ignore the "deep strike reserve, t2, etc" parts of the DS rules, if Hawks can't do it, RAW, neither can GoI user.


The rules for GoI give the explicit permission. I explained that already. The GoI rule tells you specifically that they arrive. Specific rule > general rule.

In contrast, if your Hawks are in ongoing reserve you might decide that you want to try and deep strike them. Without any specific rules exempting them from the prerequisites for deep strike, they then have to see if they meet those requirements before you can start placing models.

So once again, if the Hawks don't start the game in deep strike reserve, they can't deep strike from ongoing reserves.
   
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 Tonberry7 wrote:
RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
As the rules for Deep Striking don't give explicit permission for GoI users to ignore the "deep strike reserve, t2, etc" parts of the DS rules, if Hawks can't do it, RAW, neither can GoI user.


The rules for GoI give the explicit permission. I explained that already. The GoI rule tells you specifically that they arrive. Specific rule > general rule.



A strict reading to deny Hawks means that GoI is "obviously" intended to allow a librarian to jump in on T2+ and then jump elsewhere in the game with someone else arriving from deep strike and having the deep strike rule (so no teleporting T1 podded sternguard either), not start on the board in T1 and jump anywhere. Those are both absurd interpretations, IMO.

The Deep Strike Rules say you need to have the Deep Strike rule and start in reserves to arrive from Deep Strike. Gate of Infinity says you use the deep strike rules, not that the unit gains the deep strike rule and didn't have to start in reserves. If you want to deny Hawks deep striking in from ongoing reserves on that basis, you deny GoI. If you read the rules loosely in your favor and strictly against the other guy, you really undermine the legitimacy of your argument.

So once again, if the GoI doesn't say it grants the unit the Deep Strike rule and they didn't need to start in reserves first, they can't deep strike by that same needlessly contrived reasoning.


   
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Its about whether you read it as a restriction or a permission. Deep Strike in order to use Deep Strike, you must be in Reserves. Deep strike grants you the ability to move on from an alternate method then any other and Deep Strike cannot be used once you are on the board.

Deep strike never addresses GOI or Skyleap as those are more specific rules. It does not even address Ongoing Reserves.
   
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RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
 Tonberry7 wrote:
RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
As the rules for Deep Striking don't give explicit permission for GoI users to ignore the "deep strike reserve, t2, etc" parts of the DS rules, if Hawks can't do it, RAW, neither can GoI user.


The rules for GoI give the explicit permission. I explained that already. The GoI rule tells you specifically that they arrive. Specific rule > general rule.



A strict reading to deny Hawks means that GoI is "obviously" intended to allow a librarian to jump in on T2+ and then jump elsewhere in the game with someone else arriving from deep strike and having the deep strike rule (so no teleporting T1 podded sternguard either), not start on the board in T1 and jump anywhere. Those are both absurd interpretations, IMO.

The Deep Strike Rules say you need to have the Deep Strike rule and start in reserves to arrive from Deep Strike. Gate of Infinity says you use the deep strike rules, not that the unit gains the deep strike rule and didn't have to start in reserves. If you want to deny Hawks deep striking in from ongoing reserves on that basis, you deny GoI. If you read the rules loosely in your favor and strictly against the other guy, you really undermine the legitimacy of your argument.

So once again, if the GoI doesn't say it grants the unit the Deep Strike rule and they didn't need to start in reserves first, they can't deep strike by that same needlessly contrived reasoning.




I'm really having trouble following what you're trying to say here. You seem to be jumping back and forth between the two different topics of swooping hawks and GoI. How can I deny Hawks deep striking from ongoing reserve on the basis of the GoI rules?

I'm not even trying to deny that Hawks can DS from ongoing reserves. I'm just saying they can only do that if they start the game in deep strike reserve and therefore this isn't an option if they start the game on the table.

As for GoI I'm not claiming the unit gains the DS rule. GoI gives the unit specific permisssion to be removed from the board and immediately re-arrive using the DS rules due to the manifestation of the power. There is no mention of ongoing reserves in GoI.

To simplify matters, why don't you just stick to the actual rules and if you can, cite the permission that allows swooping hawks to ignore the restriction of having to start the game in DS reserve in order to deep strike?
   
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Honestly the Deep Strike Special Rule is fast approaching my candidate for the most 'annoyingly written' of the Special Rules, which is saying something given it the other candidates in that category.
... Actually, does Dakkadakka do sort of 'award show' type things from time to time where we can vote on these things?

At this point in time, I personally feel that Deep Strike never should have been written as a Special Rule....
The Arriving by Deep Strike sequence could have easily been a sub-set of Rules found in a numerous other sections of the book, with the primary candidate being the section detailing what Reserves. With such a formatting change, there would be nothing more then a sequence simply known as 'Deep Striking,' it could even keep the current name 'Arriving by Deep Strike' without a problem, and a quick run down that informs us that certain Rules will refer to this sequence. It would then be up to these other Rules to inform us of the conditions required to access said sequence, allowing the Authors to create specific Restrictions instead of having to remember every default Restriction so they can create specific Exceptions to them.

Then we wouldn't have this mess where a Rule refers us back to the entirety of the Deep Strike Special Rule, including problematic Restrictions which can not be obeyed, when it simply wants us to use the Sequence found within....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/11 19:23:17


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
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Not really, the rules for Specific vs Advanced cover most the problems.
   
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Vanished Completely

No, Really, as Basic Vs Advanced only comes into play when there is a direct conflict which returns to this question:
Can we even evoke an optional Rule stating that we must to do X if there is a Restriction that would make X illegal?

Now I have stretched the concept in the past when it came to these very same Restrictions, which is where I first realized the Deep Strike Special Rule had a problem. The very act of going to such extensive lengths just to prove a conflict even exists should not be required, it should be very obvious when such do occur and even better written Rules would address such situations internally. The very fact that we have to regularly Evoke 'Basic Vs Advanced' shows there is a massive problem with the way the Deep Strike Special Rule itself is written. It is literally accepting that we have to 'tricked out of existence' a few very annoying and clearly not applicable Restrictions just to get the game to function.

A few minor formatting changes is all it would take to eliminate the entire need for us to greatly abuse the Basic Vs Advanced Rule to simply access a sequence that far to many Rules rely on....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/11 19:43:25


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
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 Tonberry7 wrote:

I'm not even trying to deny that Hawks can DS from ongoing reserves. I'm just saying they can only do that if they start the game in deep strike reserve and therefore this isn't an option if they start the game on the table.

And I'm not even trying to deny that GoI users can DS immediately. I'm just saying they can only do that if they start the game in deep strike reserve and therefore this isn't an option if they start the game on the table, nor can they if the unit does not have the Deep Strike rule in it's profile/unit type. If your Librarian and a termi unit starts in reserve, comes on in T2 after a roll and then you want to use GoI to bounce them around in T3, feel free. Don't try to do that if either starts on the board though, not with any unit that doesn't already have the Deep Strike rule if you are going to say that Hawks can't.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

As for GoI I'm not claiming the unit gains the DS rule. GoI gives the unit specific permisssion to be removed from the board and immediately re-arrive using the DS rules due to the manifestation of the power. There is no mention of ongoing reserves in GoI.


As for Skyleap the unit explicitly has the DS rule as a result of being Jump Infantry. Skyleap gives the unit specific permission to be removed from the board and be placed into on-going reserves, which auto-arrive the following re-arrive, presumably using the DS rules as any other interpetation is daft. Do Mawlocs burrow and then.... walk on from their own edge? There is no mention of ongoing reserves in GoI, nor is the mention of granting the unit the Deep Strike rule, nor an exception to any of the rules for deep strike. It says they can arrive following the rules for deep strike, which have those two conditions which the GoI does not explicitly state it grants/ignores.



 Tonberry7 wrote:

To simplify matters, why don't you just stick to the actual rules and if you can, cite the permission that allows swooping hawks to ignore the restriction of having to start the game in DS reserve in order to deep strike?


To simplify matters, why don't you just stick to the actual rules and if you can, cite the permission that allows Gate Of Infinity to ignore the restriction of having to start the game in DS reserve (and have the DS rule) in order to deep strike?

If you want to read the rules in a severe fashion, do so consistently. If you want to deny Hawks (and Mawlocs and I assume the Necron guys, depending on their rules), then you have to deny GoI for most uses too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/11 19:41:59


 
   
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RAWRAIrobblerrobble:
Being a broken conclusion doesn't mean it is incorrect within the confines of a Rule as Written debate.
There is a reason why I do not use the exact Written Rules to play this game....

8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
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JinxDragon wrote:
RAWRAIrobblerrobble:
Being a broken conclusion doesn't mean it is incorrect within the confines of a Rule as Written debate.
There is a reason why I do not use the exact Written Rules to play this game....


Absolutely agreed. It's not HIWPI either, I'm just pointing that out for the guy who wants to ban Hawks from T1 leaping off and then DSing in T2 on that basis. He wants to be RAW against them but then RAI for GoI. I think if you want to be RAW, then be RAW, don't waffle when RAW goes against your guys. That's WAAC IMO.

   
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In a Rule as Written debate I don't think it should matter if the Rule being discussed is a boon or a bane to any given side, only what is Written.

8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
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JinxDragon wrote:
No, Really, as Basic Vs Advanced only comes into play when there is a direct conflict which returns to this question:
Can we even evoke an optional Rule stating that we must to do X if there is a Restriction that would make X illegal?

Now I have stretched the concept in the past when it came to these very same Restrictions, which is where I first realized the Deep Strike Special Rule had a problem. The very act of going to such extensive lengths just to prove a conflict even exists should not be required, it should be very obvious when such do occur and even better written Rules would address such situations internally. The very fact that we have to regularly Evoke 'Basic Vs Advanced' shows there is a massive problem with the way the Deep Strike Special Rule itself is written. It is literally accepting that we have to 'tricked out of existence' a few very annoying and clearly not applicable Restrictions just to get the game to function.

A few minor formatting changes is all it would take to eliminate the entire need for us to greatly abuse the Basic Vs Advanced Rule to simply access a sequence that far to many Rules rely on....


So you dont consider a rule that allows you to move around the board "as if" Deep Striking, more specific than the rule stating that you have to start in reserves to Deepstrike?
   
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JinxDragon wrote:
In a Rule as Written debate I don't think it should matter if the Rule being discussed is a boon or a bane to any given side, only what is Written.


Agreed, but he's trying to have to both ways. Fragile wants the technicalities apply to unit X because they don't say they ignore it, but he doesn't apply to unit Y, even though it doesn't say they ignore it either. I have my view. it is consistent and most people play it that way (100% of my meta).

I'm fine with an overly technical reading of rules - that can be its own kind of fun, but I want consistency. If you quibble over an eighth of an inch for my tank to fit on a bridge, don't walk your assault guys more than 6" from your deployment zone in the movement phase. Loose or tight, keep it consistent.
   
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RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
JinxDragon wrote:
RAWRAIrobblerrobble:
Being a broken conclusion doesn't mean it is incorrect within the confines of a Rule as Written debate.
There is a reason why I do not use the exact Written Rules to play this game....


Absolutely agreed. It's not HIWPI either, I'm just pointing that out for the guy who wants to ban Hawks from T1 leaping off and then DSing in T2 on that basis. He wants to be RAW against them but then RAI for GoI. I think if you want to be RAW, then be RAW, don't waffle when RAW goes against your guys. That's WAAC IMO.



No, I've applied RAW in both situations, you're just misunderstanding and claiming that I'm being inconsistent for some reason.

Once again, the GoI rule explicitly tells you that the unit arrives. This specific instruction overrides any restriction in the DS rule that determines whether they can arrive by DS or not. Advanced rule > Basic rule.

Otherwise you couldn't cast GoI on any unit containing models which don't have the DS rule anyway.

I notice you still haven't cited a rule allowing Hawks to ignore these restrictions.
   
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Fragile wrote:

So you dont consider a rule that allows you to move around the board "as if" Deep Striking, more specific than the rule stating that you have to start in reserves to Deepstrike?


Fragile, why do you ignore my counter point for point example? It makes it seem like you are trying to have it both ways.

The Deep Strike rules say you must start the game in DS Reserves and that you must have the DS rule to DS. If the Hawks needs to be explicitly allowed to DS back in, then you certainly need to show where in the GoI that it grants the DS rule to units affected and that they can ignore the "DS start in Reserves", so that they can take advanatage of those rules if they don't already have DS and didn't start in DS Reserves. Otherwise your Hawk view must mean that only Libbies and Termies arriving from DS on T2+ can ever use the GoI.

   
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Fragile,
Can an optional Rule, such as casting a Psychic Power, be evoked if the instructions within would knowingly violate a 'Must' Restriction?

I've made my personal view on the matter known because Deep Strike is officially 'broken' from a Rule as Written perspective as far as I am concerned. Accessing the Arriving by Deep Strike sequence involves triggering Restrictions within the greater Deep Strike Special Rule. For any secondary Rules trying to access this sequence to function, at all, they need to address these Restrictions and grant us permission to bypass them. As the Rules in question fail to do that, the only thing we get around the problem is by creating elaborate 'conflicts' in order to prove we have permission to ignore the Restrictions.

How is that not broken?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/12 02:15:43


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
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@Raw, how am I trying to have it both ways. Your trying to limit abilities of a unit and a psychic power based on a basic deployment type "Starting the game in Reserves".
   
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Fragile wrote:
@Raw, how am I trying to have it both ways. Your trying to limit abilities of a unit and a psychic power based on a basic deployment type "Starting the game in Reserves".


You seem to be advocating that Swooping Hawks, a Jump Infantry Model with the Deep Strike rule, can not deep strike onto the board unless they started off the board in turn 1, on the basis of the DS rule stating they must start in DS Reserve before the game to DS.

At the same time, you seem to be saying that a GoI spell, which says "use the DS rules", can somehow lets a unit that was not in DS Reserves before the game began DS back in. That seems inconsistent to me in RAW vs RAI.

GoI says "use the DS rules", not "use the DS rules but ignore the DS restrictions". Under that logic, if a Librarian starts on the board before T1, he can't come back in at all after using GoI. To me, any interpretation that negates Hawk jump out T1 jump in T2 negates GoI too.

HIWPI is I'll let my opponent jump hawks out on T1 and back in on T2 and let Librarians/etc pinball their sternguard around with GoI and I'll expect the same. But then I remind people to use their shatter terrain warpsmith power when they forget, because I want everyone to have fun and not feel bad.

   
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RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
Fragile wrote:
@Raw, how am I trying to have it both ways. Your trying to limit abilities of a unit and a psychic power based on a basic deployment type "Starting the game in Reserves".


You seem to be advocating that Swooping Hawks, a Jump Infantry Model with the Deep Strike rule, can not deep strike onto the board unless they started off the board in turn 1, on the basis of the DS rule stating they must start in DS Reserve before the game to DS.

At the same time, you seem to be saying that a GoI spell, which says "use the DS rules", can somehow lets a unit that was not in DS Reserves before the game began DS back in. That seems inconsistent to me in RAW vs RAI.

GoI says "use the DS rules", not "use the DS rules but ignore the DS restrictions". Under that logic, if a Librarian starts on the board before T1, he can't come back in at all after using GoI. To me, any interpretation that negates Hawk jump out T1 jump in T2 negates GoI too.

HIWPI is I'll let my opponent jump hawks out on T1 and back in on T2 and let Librarians/etc pinball their sternguard around with GoI and I'll expect the same. But then I remind people to use their shatter terrain warpsmith power when they forget, because I want everyone to have fun and not feel bad.



My position was that both are able to be done. Deep Strike is a basic deployment rule. It does not address things like Ongoing Reserves and things that let you move "as if DSing."

In this case GoI is specifically allowed because it skips past the requirements for DS and goes straight to Arriving. Hawks are allowed to enter Ongoing Reserves past Turn 1 and can DS per JI. Anything that says it moves like DS'ing, such as Veilteks is a more specific rule that lets you follow the DS rules.



   
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Buffalo, NY

Fragile wrote:
My position was that both are able to be done.


And there within lay the confusion. RAW was under the impression you were for allowing GoI to work but not Deep Striking from Ongoing Reserves.


Now I think we can all agree that this is settled?

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
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Fragile wrote:
RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
Fragile wrote:
@Raw, how am I trying to have it both ways. Your trying to limit abilities of a unit and a psychic power based on a basic deployment type "Starting the game in Reserves".


You seem to be advocating that Swooping Hawks, a Jump Infantry Model with the Deep Strike rule, can not deep strike onto the board unless they started off the board in turn 1, on the basis of the DS rule stating they must start in DS Reserve before the game to DS.

At the same time, you seem to be saying that a GoI spell, which says "use the DS rules", can somehow lets a unit that was not in DS Reserves before the game began DS back in. That seems inconsistent to me in RAW vs RAI.

GoI says "use the DS rules", not "use the DS rules but ignore the DS restrictions". Under that logic, if a Librarian starts on the board before T1, he can't come back in at all after using GoI. To me, any interpretation that negates Hawk jump out T1 jump in T2 negates GoI too.

HIWPI is I'll let my opponent jump hawks out on T1 and back in on T2 and let Librarians/etc pinball their sternguard around with GoI and I'll expect the same. But then I remind people to use their shatter terrain warpsmith power when they forget, because I want everyone to have fun and not feel bad.



My position was that both are able to be done. Deep Strike is a basic deployment rule. It does not address things like Ongoing Reserves and things that let you move "as if DSing."

In this case GoI is specifically allowed because it skips past the requirements for DS and goes straight to Arriving. Hawks are allowed to enter Ongoing Reserves past Turn 1 and can DS per JI. Anything that says it moves like DS'ing, such as Veilteks is a more specific rule that lets you follow the DS rules.



The whole point of this thread, as I see it, is "Does Skyleap allow Swooping Hawks start on the table T1, jump off and then, from ongoing reserves, come back on automatically via DS in T2?"

Ultraconservative reading of the DS rules is that they can not, because they did not start in Deep Strike Reserves (DSR). If ultraconservative reading is uniformly applied, GoI does NOT exempt anyone from that DSR requirement.

Essentially, I believe that RAI, Skyleap is a GoI that puts them back on the next turn instead of the same turn. If it does not, due to ultraconservative reading of the DSR, then GoI doesn't allow them back in either if they were on the board T1.

Fragile, if you disagree, can you quote the rule that says GoI allows one to skip the DSR requirement when applying the DS rules to a GoIing unit?



   
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RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
The whole point of this thread, as I see it, is "Does Skyleap allow Swooping Hawks start on the table T1, jump off and then, from ongoing reserves, come back on automatically via DS in T2?"

Ultraconservative reading of the DS rules is that they can not, because they did not start in Deep Strike Reserves (DSR).


My rulebook no longer even uses that DSR term. It is simply reserves now.

If ultraconservative reading is uniformly applied, GoI does NOT exempt anyone from that DSR requirement.

Essentially, I believe that RAI, Skyleap is a GoI that puts them back on the next turn instead of the same turn. If it does not, due to ultraconservative reading of the DSR, then GoI doesn't allow them back in either if they were on the board T1.

Fragile, if you disagree, can you quote the rule that says GoI allows one to skip the DSR requirement when applying the DS rules to a GoIing unit?


As to GoI.

It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike.


What is arriving by DS. The rule states....[.Arriving by Deep Strike: Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:.......]

The rules to arrive are then listed.


   
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Interestingly, under Conjuring, Daemonic Summoning seems to be less broken than GoI via the ultraconservative reading as well:
"the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike,". (no rules appended in text)

Since GoI doesn't say arrives by DeepStrike, but explicitly says "Deep Strike rules" there is further RAW against GoI. Again, the tortured logic to deny Hawks a T1 skyleap out and T2 auto DS back in is the same logic that will deny GoI for the same reason.



   
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RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
Interestingly, under Conjuring, Daemonic Summoning seems to be less broken than GoI via the ultraconservative reading as well:
"the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike,". (no rules appended in text)

Since GoI doesn't say arrives by DeepStrike, but explicitly says "Deep Strike rules" there is further RAW against GoI. Again, the tortured logic to deny Hawks a T1 skyleap out and T2 auto DS back in is the same logic that will deny GoI for the same reason.





There is no "tortured logic" apart from your attempts to use a misinterpretation of GoI rules to justify why swooping hawks should be able to ignore restrictions on being able to deep strike.

Forget GoI as it isn't relevant to the RAW discussion of hawks arriving from ongoing reserve. Please just cite some rules allowing the hawks to ignore the requirement of having to start the game in DS reserve in order to be eligible to deep strike. Or concede that they can't T1 Skyleap then DS in T2.
   
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RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
Interestingly, under Conjuring, Daemonic Summoning seems to be less broken than GoI via the ultraconservative reading as well:
"the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike,". (no rules appended in text)

Since GoI doesn't say arrives by DeepStrike, but explicitly says "Deep Strike rules" there is further RAW against GoI. Again, the tortured logic to deny Hawks a T1 skyleap out and T2 auto DS back in is the same logic that will deny GoI for the same reason.



GoI and Conjuration work fine. Arriving by Deep Strike is clear in the rules. You follow the steps under the Arriving section of the DS rules.

   
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Fragile wrote:

GoI and Conjuration work fine. Arriving by Deep Strike is clear in the rules. You follow the steps under the Arriving section of the DS rules.


No it doesn't, is says they follow the deep striek rules and the deep streike rules say to deep strike you need:
1) The Deep Strike rule - which GoI does not grant RAW, and
2) to have started the game in reserves.

If you want to RAW at people, be consistent. If Hawks can't DS back in if they were on the board in T1, then Gate of Infinity users can't either.

Fragile, again I ask, if you disagree, please quote the RAW rule that grants the exception to those two requirements, because my book says they use the DS rules. It does NOT say they are placed back on they table as if they had just deep struck in. Anything else is irrelevant as "they meant to" can apply to Hawks too.




   
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Gate of Infinity is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Unless the target is Zooming or Swooping, remove the target and his unit from the board. It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike.


Deep Strike.

Arriving by Deep Strike. (Second Paragraph in digital format)

Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and
then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you
would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a
vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must
continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be
placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When
the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model
touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.
• Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.

etc....

   
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And the paragraph before that says:

"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike."


Nothing in GoI grants the DS rule or overrides the need to start in reserve. RAW GoI is so deepstrikers can bounce around. If you want to say they meant something else, that's fine but then don't say that they meant to allow GoI but didn't mean to allow Skyleap off T1 and back on T2.


   
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You are told they "Arrive" per the Deep strike rules. "Arriving by Deep strike" is its own sub-section in the rules, clearly labeled at that. Anything that lets you arrive by Deep Strike without having the Deep Strike rule is obviously a more specific rule and it references the rules you need to use.

Specific > General. Clear case.
   
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Fragile wrote:
You are told they "Arrive" per the Deep strike rules. "Arriving by Deep strike" is its own sub-section in the rules, clearly labeled at that. Anything that lets you arrive by Deep Strike without having the Deep Strike rule is obviously a more specific rule and it references the rules you need to use.

Specific > General. Clear case.


And around we go again. If you want to argue RAW, then where does Gate of Infinity grant a unit the Deep Strike Rule and exempt them from the requirement to start off the table? Because those are required to deep strike at all the way you read it for T1 Skyleaping Hawks. Hint: It doesn't.

Your.... persistence has inspired me to dig deeper, and I've found a way to let Hawks Skyleap T1 and DS T2 but, by the same purist RAW you seem to seek to apply to them, denies Gate.

"Ongoing Reserves
If a unit enters Reserve part way through the game, such as a Flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering Ongoing Reserves. Units in Ongoing Reserve always re-enter play at the start of their controlling player’s following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves"

So there, explicit permission for Hawks. Still waiting to see where GoI says follow only the beneficial parts of the rules for Deep Strike, because you haven't said it yet.






This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/12 19:21:15


 
   
 
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