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RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
And around we go again. If you want to argue RAW, then where does Gate of Infinity grant a unit the Deep Strike Rule and exempt them from the requirement to start off the table?

You appear confused. The rule is clearly laid out above. There is nothing of question there.

FYI.. you started this discussion about GoI. You keep trying to bring Hawks into it. Hawks are a separate argument.

GOI never actually deep strikes so has nothing in common with skyleap. Not sure where this comparison even got off.


GOI only requires you re-position your unit using deep strike scatter rules. They are never placed into reserves nor ever have to be in reserves.


Strict RAW, you cannot arrive via deep strike from reserves unless:
A. you started the game in deep strike reserves.
B. a special rule states you are placed into deep strike reserves.


A closer rule to skyleap would be the mawlocs burrow ability if you want to compare rules.

Eihnlazer wrote:
GOI never actually deep strikes so has nothing in common with skyleap. Not sure where this comparison even got off.


GOI only requires you re-position your unit using deep strike scatter rules. They are never placed into reserves nor ever have to be in reserves.


Strict RAW, you cannot arrive via deep strike from reserves unless:
A. you started the game in deep strike reserves.
B. a special rule states you are placed into deep strike reserves.


A closer rule to skyleap would be the mawlocs burrow ability if you want to compare rules.

What is deep strike reserves ?

Fragile wrote:
What is deep strike reserves ?

A specific type of reserves mentioned in passing in the rules for Deep Strike (the first non-fluff paragraph, page 162), but not actually mentioned in the Reserves rules themselves (p135).

 Quanar wrote:

Fragile wrote:
What is deep strike reserves ?

A specific type of reserves mentioned in passing in the rules for Deep Strike (the first non-fluff paragraph, page 162), but not actually mentioned in the Reserves rules themselves (p135).

Not even mentioned in mine.

It is mentioned in passing when it states to tell your opponent when you put a Model into Reserves that it will be Arriving by Deep Striking.

Indeed. "When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). " Outflankers also need to be declared as outflanking prior to deployment. My understanding is nothing lets you change yoru mind and have them walk on afterwards when they (first) enter the board.

Fragile, given my previous post, do you now concede the RAW allow Skyleap to be used to be on the board T1 and DS back in automatically on T2? If not, please explain why not given the explicit RAW excerpts I posted above.

Back to the ongoing reserves thing. It tells us that they auto come in the following turn, but otherwise follow the normal Reserves rules. For normal reserves, wouldn't we declare them "in depstrike reserve" when they are placed there?

So my questions is, if we are otherwise using the noraml reserves rules, when the hawks skyleap T1, cant we just clare them in "deepstrike reserve?"

no because ongoing reserve also mentions that when a model enters the table from reserve it cannot change movement modes (if a flier) or the method of entry (if any other unit).

This means if it was not originally placed in Deep strike reserve at the start of the game, it can never enter the table again through that method (unless a special rule specifically says it may).

Eihnlazer wrote:
no because ongoing reserve also mentions that when a model enters the table from reserve it cannot change movement modes (if a flier) or the method of entry (if any other unit).

Good point.

Skyleap: place in ongoing reserves
Ongoing reserves: automatically come in the next turn
Deep Strike: "When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). " and "Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike."
Ongoing Reserves: "Units in Ongoing Reserve always re-enter play at the start of their controlling player’s following turn, but otherwise follow
the normal rules for Reserves."

One can legitimately debate whether their trip to Ongoing reserves travels through the just plain Reserves or Deep Strike Reserves, but there's no clear RAW against or for it under that perspective - they follow the normal rules for Reserves (which may include DSR), not a unit in (normal) Reserves.

Conjuration lends support to DSR, but it is ambiguous. The Leaving Combat airspace " it then enters Ongoing Reserves. Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to the battlefield)." implies they get back into the fight as quickly as possible, but again that's not explicit enough to deter a rules lawyer fighting for a predetermined outcome.

The thing that confuses me is how anyone can think (RAW) Swooping Hawks can't deep strike back in T2 after a T1 skyleap, but somehow DO think that RAW, GOI should work on anything that didn't DS onto the board after the game started. GOI says they follow the DS rules, not are placed as if they had DSed. Arrives from DS means [follow the DS rules: Need DS, need to be in DSR pre T1].





There's the whole Spirit of the Game thing too, but that's hardly meaningful on YMDC.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
The thing that confuses me is how anyone can think (RAW) Swooping Hawks can't deep strike back in T2 after a T1 skyleap

It's probably because the rules for deep strike require the unit to have started the game in deep strike reserves in order to be eligible to deep strike. It's as simple as that. This has been pointed out to you several times already and you still haven't cited any rules that allow Swooping Hawks to ignore this requirement.

Constantly grasping at straws and referring to GoI rules is of no relevance whatsoever to Swooping Hawks coming in from ongoing reserves. You can't use your misinterpretation of other rules to legalise a T1 Skyleap and T2 Deep Strike with Swooping Hawks.

Eihnlazer wrote:
no because ongoing reserve also mentions that when a model enters the table from reserve it cannot change movement modes (if a flier) or the method of entry (if any other unit).

This means if it was not originally placed in Deep strike reserve at the start of the game, it can never enter the table again through that method (unless a special rule specifically says it may).

Ah I see. That makes sense. Makes me wonder if there are even any other cases where is sitiutaion would be possible?

 Tonberry7 wrote:

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
The thing that confuses me is how anyone can think (RAW) Swooping Hawks can't deep strike back in T2 after a T1 skyleap

It's probably because the rules for deep strike require the unit to have started the game in deep strike reserves in order to be eligible to deep strike. It's as simple as that. This has been pointed out to you several times already and you still haven't cited any rules that allow Swooping Hawks to ignore this requirement.

Constantly grasping at straws and referring to GoI rules is of no relevance whatsoever to Swooping Hawks coming in from ongoing reserves. You can't use your misinterpretation of other rules to legalise a T1 Skyleap and T2 Deep Strike with Swooping Hawks.

I note you keep cutting off the part that says "If nothing says Hawks can, what says GOI can?". I'm fine either way, I just want a consistent reading. I'd appreciate it if you quoted the entire sentence.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

It's probably because the rules for deep strike require the unit to have started the game in deep strike reserves in order to be eligible to deep strike. It's as simple as that.

You put it up there yourself this time. Nothing in Gate of Infinity says they get to ignore that when following the rules for Deep Strike. Stop trying to have it both ways. If Hawks can't by RAW then neither can GOI users who started on the board.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
Indeed. "When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). " Outflankers also need to be declared as outflanking prior to deployment. My understanding is nothing lets you change yoru mind and have them walk on afterwards when they (first) enter the board.

Fragile, given my previous post, do you now concede the RAW allow Skyleap to be used to be on the board T1 and DS back in automatically on T2? If not, please explain why not given the explicit RAW excerpts I posted above.

RAWRAI, you again appear confused. I cannot concede a point that I am not arguing. The point is that GoI works explicitly by RAW. Hawks work as well, but it is a different argument. I was questioning the "Deep Strike Reserve" when the correct term is just 'Reserves". I had missed the part in parenthesis looking over it. That was a term from much previous editions that is slowly being phased out.

For strict RAW and not HIWPI, and per the dakka "how to argue" article, here's numbered premises.

In order to Deep Strike you must:
1) have the Deep Strike rule
2) begin the game in (deep strike) Reserves

To avoid any accidental misunderstand of the Gate of Infinity power, here's the relevant portion of the rule:
"It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike"
Please note that, RAW, "arrives using the rules for deep strike" is NOT the same as "place on the board as if it had deep struck". No where does it state that it grants the affect unit the Deep Strike Rule which is required condition 1. It also does not say it exempts the unit from condition #2. You keep saying GOI works by RAW. Where does it grant premises #1 and #2?


Premise 1:
Gate of Infinity does NOT grant Premise 1, so it FAILS this test.
Swooping Hawks, as jump infantry: Check, passes the test.

Premise 2: An strict RAW reading here breaks Skyleap, Mawloc's powers etc. This is the only way to deny Hawks from jumping back in after being on the board T1
Gate of Infinity does NOT grant Premise 2, so it FAILS this test.
If Hawks start on the board fulfill Premise 1, it cannot fulfill premise 2. If you quote on this line and ignore the rest of the post I'll take that as your resignation from legitimate debate on the point.



My question to you is:
If Premise 2 prevents Hawks from coming back after pregame placement on the board, what allows Gate of Infinity to work on anything that didn't strike in to begin with?

RAWRAI, you continue to refer to irrelevant rules (GoI) as a basis for your argument for Swooping Hawks to break the rules for deep striking from ongoing reserves. No-one is being inconsistent over RAW for ongoing reserves and GoI either. Just to indulge your obsession with GoI, this rule works fine as it is.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
To avoid any accidental misunderstand of the Gate of Infinity power, here's the relevant portion of the rule:
"It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike"

The phrase "immediately arrives" is a specific permission within the rule for the unit to..... immediately arrive. This advanced ruling overrides the general requirements to determine eligibility for a unit to deep strike. I believe this has been pointed out several times already. When resolving a successful manifestation of GoI, you therefore proceed from the part of the deep strike rules where they start detailing the placement of models and scattering etc.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
For strict RAW and not HIWPI, and per the dakka "how to argue" article, here's numbered premises.

In order to Deep Strike you must:
1) have the Deep Strike rule
2) begin the game in (deep strike) Reserves

Premise 2: An strict RAW reading here breaks Skyleap, Mawloc's powers etc. This is the only way to deny Hawks from jumping back in after being on the board T1

There's no "strict RAW". What does this even mean? Is this opposed to lenient RAW where you break the rules that don't suit you? There's either RAW or HIWPI but I'm glad you're finally conceding that the RAW don't allow Hawks to deep strike after being on the board T1.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
My question to you is:
If Premise 2 prevents Hawks from coming back after pregame placement on the board

It doesn't prevent them from coming back via their table edge after pregame placement on the board. It does, however, prevent them from deep striking after pregame placement on the board.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
what allows Gate of Infinity to work on anything that didn't strike in to begin with?

The specific permission given in the actual GoI rule to immediately arrive as discussed above. The same specific permission that allows GoI to work on models without the deep strike rule.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
what allows Gate of Infinity to work on anything that didn't strike in to begin with?

The specific permission given in the actual GoI rule to immediately arrive as discussed above. The same specific permission that allows GoI to work on models without the deep strike rule.

There is no such permission. Re-read the rule - I've quoted it for you repeatedly. It says arrives using the DS rules, not is placed as if it had DSed. If GOI works, then so does skyleap because the only thing stopping T1 skyleap (did they start in reserve?) also stops GOI.

If you want to state that GOI exempts a unit from the requirement to have started the game in reserves, show where that is written. Again "arrives following the deep strike rules" does NOT mean you get to ignore any of the deep strike rules. If you want to ignore that and just repost "yes it does" feel free to get the last word, but the rule doesn't actually say that or you would have quoted it.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
what allows Gate of Infinity to work on anything that didn't strike in to begin with?

The specific permission given in the actual GoI rule to immediately arrive as discussed above. The same specific permission that allows GoI to work on models without the deep strike rule.

There is no such permission. Re-read the rule - I've quoted it for you repeatedly. It says arrives using the DS rules, not is placed as if it had DSed.

The rule explicitly gives permission for the unit to immediately arrive. I'm not sure how you can interpret this any other way. If, as you're claiming, a unit that is using GoI cannot ignore any part of the deep strike rules do they then have to make a reserve roll after successfully manifesting GoI despite not being in reserve?

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
If GOI works, then so does skyleap because the only thing stopping T1 skyleap (did they start in reserve?) also stops GOI.

Despite the fact that this statement is logically flawed, GoI works perfectly fine as it is. Skyleap also works. There is nothing stopping a T1 Skyleap. But none of these has any relevance whatsoever to Swooping Hawks being unable to deep strike from ongoing reserves if they didn't start the game in deep strike reserve. You can however Skyleap some Hawks in T1 and then walk them on from their table edge in T2. I really don't know why you keep referring to GoI. It has nothing to do with Hawks in ongoing reserve.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
If you want to state that GOI exempts a unit from the requirement to have started the game in reserves, show where that is written.

Gate of Infinity - "It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board". Specific permission overruling the requirement to have started the game in deep strike reserves.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
Again "arrives following the deep strike rules" does NOT mean you get to ignore any of the deep strike rules. If you want to ignore that and just repost "yes it does" feel free to get the last word, but the rule doesn't actually say that or you would have quoted it.

Yes it does. Specific permission. I did quote it.

@Tonberry: you're wrong.

RAW: GoI doesn't work for non-deep strike units that did not start the game in reserve.
RAW: Skyleap doesn't grant a deep strike for units that did not start the game in reserve.

Proof is:

DEEP STRIKE

Some units make their way to battle via tunnelling, teleportation, flying, or some other extraordinary means which allows them to appear in the thick of the fighting.

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

Skyleap: A unit composed entirely of models with this
special rule can ‘skyleap’ - when it does so, remove the
unit from the board and place it in Ongoing Reserve. This
cannot be done in the same turn that the unit arrives from
Reserve. A skyleap can only be performed at the start of the
unit’s Movement phase, before Regroup tests.

Gate of Infinity is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Unless the target is Zooming or Swooping, remove the target and his unit from the board. It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike.

RAI: GoI MAY NOT EVEN BE SUPPOSED TO BE USED FOR NON DEEP STRIKE UNITS.

RAI: Skyleap and other similar abilities mean the Hawks go back to reserve and deep strike the next turn.

The point you are making about Skyleap is tied to every single other rule that uses the "deep strike rules", including GoI, Mawlocs, and so many more.


I know you're just having fun with your prey though, so don't mind me, I just don't want anyone having the impression that there is only one person on the right side of the debate.

morgoth wrote:
@Tonberry: you're wrong.

RAW: Skyleap doesn't grant a deep strike for units that did not start the game in reserve.

Agreed. This is very close to the point I've been making all along. So how am I wrong?

 Tonberry7 wrote:

morgoth wrote:
@Tonberry: you're wrong.

RAW: Skyleap doesn't grant a deep strike for units that did not start the game in reserve.

Agreed. This is very close to the point I've been making all along. So how am I wrong?

You're wrong because what matters is RAI, and RAI the Hawks get to Skyleap T1 and DS T2.

You're also wrong because you suggest that other abilities referring to the DS rule would not be affected by the same argument you used for Skyleap.

morgoth wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

morgoth wrote:
@Tonberry: you're wrong.

RAW: Skyleap doesn't grant a deep strike for units that did not start the game in reserve.

Agreed. This is very close to the point I've been making all along. So how am I wrong?

You're wrong because what matters is RAI, and RAI the Hawks get to Skyleap T1 and DS T2.

I see. You're now saying the RAW don't really matter then? And Skyleap should be played the way you have interpreted the rule to be intended? So essentially I'm wrong because of the way you think the rule was intended? That's a pretty convincing argument. Remember the fact that the Skyleap rule doesn't even mention deep striking. What if I suggested the RAW and RAI was to prevent Hawks exploiting Skyleap and guaranteeing a T2 deep strike?

morgoth wrote:
You're also wrong because you suggest that other abilities referring to the DS rule would not be affected by the same argument you used for Skyleap.

If you're referring to GoI, I didn't even bring this into the discussion. That was someone else trying to justify breaking the rules for Hawks deep striking from ongoing reserves by misinterpreting a completley unrelated rule. I'd have preferred to stick to the topic. As for GoI it's not the same argument at all. This rule works perfectly fine as specific permission is given for the unit to arrive by deep strike. Hawks have no such permission when arriving from ongoing reserves and have to follow the basic BRB rule.

~)~ RAI does not matter in this forum unless the rule is completely broken and doesnt work within the rules set.


Both of the rules we were talking about work just fine using the RAW even if it seems fishy, thus RAI makes no difference and shouldnt even be brought up.

Just state HIWPI and move on if you dont agree.


RAW, you cannot skyleap T1 and deepstrike.

RAW, you can GOI with units that do not have the deep strike rule, since its a psychic power that has everything you need to preform it written down. You dont need to refference any other part of the book, just do what the power says and you have broken no rules.

Both of these situations have nothing to do with each other so stop trying to compare them.

Eihnlazer wrote:
RAW, you can GOI with units that do not have the deep strike rule, since its a psychic power that has everything you need to preform it written down. You dont need to refference any other part of the book, just do what the power says and you have broken no rules..

And here is where we disagree. What in GoI gives permission to override all of the rules regarding Deep Strike? The claim so far has been "they immediately arrive", which says nothing about overriding the restriction to start the game in Deep Strike Reserves (as the rules for Deep Striking instruct).

Now I'm fairly certain, that, GoI, VoD, Burrow/TftD, and Skyleap/DS are all meant to work. I don't think the rules as they are currently written actually support this.

happy there is another unit that "arrives" on the table using scatter without deep striking, so there is presedence for this.

Spore mines from the biovores launcher arrive after you roll for scatter and can in fact assault the following assault phase.


The only difference is that when you use GOI you can scatter onto a unit and mishap, and you are specifically told you cannot assault.

The spore mines cant mishap because they have already scattered and are unable to touch a unit.


EDIT: the above argument doesnt really respond to you i notice so i'll add this.

GoI gives you permission to ignore deep strike rules because you are not in fact deep striking. You are just following the rules the power lays out to you when you successfully manifest it. It doesnt happen in the movement phase or at the start of the turn (which is when deep strikers come in) and so has absolutely nothing to do with deep strike itself. It only even mentions deep striking because it uses the exact same method of placement on the table and mishap chart.

Eihnlazer wrote:
happy there is another unit that "arrives" on the table using scatter without deep striking, so there is presedence for this.

Spore mines from the biovores launcher arrive after you roll for scatter and can in fact assault the following assault phase.


The only difference is that when you use GOI you can scatter onto a unit and mishap, and you are specifically told you cannot assault.

The spore mines cant mishap because they have already scattered and are unable to touch a unit.

No, the only difference is that Spore Mines don't reference the Deep Strike rules.

EDIT: the above argument doesnt really respond to you i notice so i'll add this.

GoI gives you permission to ignore deep strike rules because you are not in fact deep striking. You are just following the rules the power lays out to you when you successfully manifest it. It doesnt happen in the movement phase or at the start of the turn (which is when deep strikers come in) and so has absolutely nothing to do with deep strike itself. It only even mentions deep striking because it uses the exact same method of placement on the table and mishap chart.

Again, GoI says to use the rules for Deep Strike. The rules for Deep Strike says the entire unit must have the Deep Strike special rule, and start the game in Deep Strike Reserves. There is nothing in the GoI rules that overrides this, despite your claim otherwise.

If thats the case i'll apologize but i was fairly certain GoI did not actually deep strike.

I didnt see anywhere in the description of GoI to remove the model from the table and deep strike them. I just read it as you re-position them using the deep strike scatter rules.

Eihnlazer wrote:
If thats the case i'll apologize but i was fairly certain GoI did not actually deep strike.

I didnt see anywhere in the description of GoI to remove the model from the table and deep strike them. I just read it as you re-position them using the deep strike scatter rules.

This is exactly right. The unit using GoI isn't actually deep striking. Permission is given to remove them from the board and then immediately re-arrive elsewhere. They don't enter ongoing reserves and deep strike back in. Yes, it says they arrive using the rules for deep strike but this just means you place them back on the board using the deep strike rules for placement and scatter etc.

If the GoI unit were arriving via deep strike it would say so unambiguously. Look at the wording used for Conjured Daemon units; the Conjuration rules specifically say "when the power is resolved, the new unit arrives via deep strike" showing clearly that they are deep striking.

Tonberry, why are you choosing which parts of the rule to ignore? Unless told otherwise, you need to use the rule in its entirety. And you are not told otherwise.

Can I choose to ignore the restriction on Slow & Purposeful that says the unit cannot fire Overwatch?

 Happyjew wrote:
Tonberry, why are you choosing which parts of the rule to ignore? Unless told otherwise, you need to use the rule in its entirety. And you are not told otherwise.

Can I choose to ignore the restriction on Slow & Purposeful that says the unit cannot fire Overwatch?

Exactly this. RAW, GoI only grants the unit permission to USE the DS rules. You must follow the rules that you are using in their entirety.