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I can't believe they haven't dropped that ball yet.

It says: USES THE RULES FOR DEEP STRIKE.

So, you use all the rules, some of which say you need to have the DS special rule AND start in reserve.

It would still be an awesome power that way, BTW.

And for the RAI/RAW argument, I don't think there's any shadow of a doubt that the intent was to let Swooping Hawks Deep Strike again anytime they Skyleap.

If you think otherwise, that means you believe it's more likely that every side-effect of new rule wording in v7 is intended, i.e. that GW is omniscient, never makes mistakes, ...

When we already know that they make big mistakes and the BRB can even contradict itself in places.

You are welcome to believe that RAI is not that, but Occam's Razor says I'm right and you're wrong.

 Happyjew wrote:
Tonberry, why are you choosing which parts of the rule to ignore? Unless told otherwise, you need to use the rule in its entirety. And you are not told otherwise.

Can I choose to ignore the restriction on Slow & Purposeful that says the unit cannot fire Overwatch?

Which rule are you referring to?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Tonberry, why are you choosing which parts of the rule to ignore? Unless told otherwise, you need to use the rule in its entirety. And you are not told otherwise.

Can I choose to ignore the restriction on Slow & Purposeful that says the unit cannot fire Overwatch?

Exactly this. RAW, GoI only grants the unit permission to USE the DS rules. You must follow the rules that you are using in their entirety.

It also grants them specific permission to arrive immediately. You can check to see if they have the deep strike rule, started the game in deep strike reserve, and then make a roll for reserves if you want, but they still arrive immediately.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Tonberry, why are you choosing which parts of the rule to ignore? Unless told otherwise, you need to use the rule in its entirety. And you are not told otherwise.

Can I choose to ignore the restriction on Slow & Purposeful that says the unit cannot fire Overwatch?

Which rule are you referring to?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Tonberry, why are you choosing which parts of the rule to ignore? Unless told otherwise, you need to use the rule in its entirety. And you are not told otherwise.

Can I choose to ignore the restriction on Slow & Purposeful that says the unit cannot fire Overwatch?

Exactly this. RAW, GoI only grants the unit permission to USE the DS rules. You must follow the rules that you are using in their entirety.

It also grants them specific permission to arrive immediately. You can check to see if they have the deep strike rule, started the game in deep strike reserve, and then make a roll for reserves if you want, but they still arrive immediately.

To arrive immediately, following the rules from Deep Strike.

You may think that this means GW intended for the GoI to allow DS no matter what, but RAW, it just doesn't work like that.

morgoth wrote:
I can't believe they haven't dropped that ball yet.

It says: USES THE RULES FOR DEEP STRIKE.

So, you use all the rules, some of which say you need to have the DS special rule AND start in reserve.

It would still be an awesome power that way, BTW.

The DS rules say you also need to make a roll for reserves if you want to insist on that one too. So again, you can check to see if they have the deep strike rule, started the game in deep strike reserve, and then make a roll for reserves if you want, but they still arrive immediately because the GoI rule gives them specific permission to do so.

morgoth wrote:
And for the RAI/RAW argument, I don't think there's any shadow of a doubt that the intent was to let Swooping Hawks Deep Strike again anytime they Skyleap.

If you think otherwise, that means you believe it's more likely that every side-effect of new rule wording in v7 is intended, i.e. that GW is omniscient, never makes mistakes, ...

When we already know that they make big mistakes and the BRB can even contradict itself in places.

You are welcome to believe that RAI is not that, but Occam's Razor says I'm right and you're wrong.

And for the RAI/RAW argument, RAI has no place in a RAW discussion. It's also not clear at all that it was intended for Hawks to be able to guarantee a T2 deep strike and avoid a reserve roll. You are welcome to play the game any way you want to, but the RAW say I'm right and you're wrong.

And RAW says GoI doesn't work if you did not start the game in reserve.

morgoth wrote:
And RAW says GoI doesn't work if you did not start the game in reserve.

Despite the fact that GoI works fine with current RAW, how is this statement relevant to Swooping Hawks?

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Tonberry, why are you choosing which parts of the rule to ignore? Unless told otherwise, you need to use the rule in its entirety. And you are not told otherwise.

Can I choose to ignore the restriction on Slow & Purposeful that says the unit cannot fire Overwatch?

Which rule are you referring to?

I'm referring to the Deep Strike rule. The rules for GoI say to use the rules for Deep Strike, do you agree or disagree?
The rules for Deep Strike say that all models need to have the Deep Strike special rule, do you agree or disagree?
A Librarian without Terminator armour or a Jump Pack, does not have the Deep Strike special rule, agree or disagree?

If you agree with all of the above, then a Librarian without the Deep Strike special rule, is unable to Deep Strike, and as such, GoI would not work.


If GoI said something like "the unit is removed from the table and then immediately arrives using the "Arriving from Deep Strike" part of the Deep Strike special rule." (or something a little less cluttered, then you would be able to ignore the restrictions in place that require the Deep Strike special rule, and starting the game in Reserves.


What GW should have done, was make Arriving by Deep Striking, Infiltrating, Scout, and Outflank part of the deployment rules, with a preface that says something like "Some models have the ability to Deep Strike. When arriving by Deep Strike..." The special rule "Deep Strike" would then only need to say "If a unit is composed entirely of models with the Deep Strike special rule, they may start the game in Reserves and arrive via Deep Strike (see page XX)." That way if something arrives using the Deep Strike rule, you would refer to "Arriving by Deep Strike" which would not have the restrictions in place.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Tonberry, why are you choosing which parts of the rule to ignore? Unless told otherwise, you need to use the rule in its entirety. And you are not told otherwise.

Can I choose to ignore the restriction on Slow & Purposeful that says the unit cannot fire Overwatch?

Which rule are you referring to?

I'm referring to the Deep Strike rule. The rules for GoI say to use the rules for Deep Strike, do you agree or disagree?
The rules for Deep Strike say that all models need to have the Deep Strike special rule, do you agree or disagree?
A Librarian without Terminator armour or a Jump Pack, does not have the Deep Strike special rule, agree or disagree?

If you agree with all of the above, then a Librarian without the Deep Strike special rule, is unable to Deep Strike, and as such, GoI would not work.


If GoI said something like "the unit is removed from the table and then immediately arrives using the "Arriving from Deep Strike" part of the Deep Strike special rule." (or something a little less cluttered, then you would be able to ignore the restrictions in place that require the Deep Strike special rule, and starting the game in Reserves.


What GW should have done, was make Arriving by Deep Striking, Infiltrating, Scout, and Outflank part of the deployment rules, with a preface that says something like "Some models have the ability to Deep Strike. When arriving by Deep Strike..." The special rule "Deep Strike" would then only need to say "If a unit is composed entirely of models with the Deep Strike special rule, they may start the game in Reserves and arrive via Deep Strike (see page XX)." That way if something arrives using the Deep Strike rule, you would refer to "Arriving by Deep Strike" which would not have the restrictions in place.

I could answer all of your queries, but since they don't have anything to do with Swooping Hawks arriving from ongoing reserves they are largely irrelevant. I really don't know why people insist on discussing GoI in this thread. Even if GoI was broken in terms of RAW (which it isn't) this would have no bearing on the actual topic of swooping hawks.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Tonberry, why are you choosing which parts of the rule to ignore? Unless told otherwise, you need to use the rule in its entirety. And you are not told otherwise.

Can I choose to ignore the restriction on Slow & Purposeful that says the unit cannot fire Overwatch?

Which rule are you referring to?

I'm referring to the Deep Strike rule. The rules for GoI say to use the rules for Deep Strike, do you agree or disagree?
The rules for Deep Strike say that all models need to have the Deep Strike special rule, do you agree or disagree?
A Librarian without Terminator armour or a Jump Pack, does not have the Deep Strike special rule, agree or disagree?

If you agree with all of the above, then a Librarian without the Deep Strike special rule, is unable to Deep Strike, and as such, GoI would not work.


If GoI said something like "the unit is removed from the table and then immediately arrives using the "Arriving from Deep Strike" part of the Deep Strike special rule." (or something a little less cluttered, then you would be able to ignore the restrictions in place that require the Deep Strike special rule, and starting the game in Reserves.


What GW should have done, was make Arriving by Deep Striking, Infiltrating, Scout, and Outflank part of the deployment rules, with a preface that says something like "Some models have the ability to Deep Strike. When arriving by Deep Strike..." The special rule "Deep Strike" would then only need to say "If a unit is composed entirely of models with the Deep Strike special rule, they may start the game in Reserves and arrive via Deep Strike (see page XX)." That way if something arrives using the Deep Strike rule, you would refer to "Arriving by Deep Strike" which would not have the restrictions in place.

I could answer all of your queries, but since they don't have anything to do with Swooping Hawks arriving from ongoing reserves they are largely irrelevant. I really don't know why people insist on discussing GoI in this thread. Even if GoI was broken in terms of RAW (which it isn't) this would have no bearing on the actual topic of swooping hawks.

You must have missed where I freely admitted that strict RAW Hawks cannot Leap turn 1 then Deep Strike.
I also claim that for the same reason that Hawks cannot Deep Strike if they did not start in Reserves, then nobody can, unless they have a special rule that specifically overrides it.

At this point , the thread has gone beyond just Skyleap, and is now discussing all Deep Strikes.

You keep claiming that GoI does specifically override because "they immediately arrive." As such, the onus is on you to prove that GoI works RAW. If you insist, however, we can always start a new thread.


Actually that might not be a bad idea. New thread away!

Unless a mod locks as a duplicate.

So, we've established that the rules are poorly written here.

I suspect that won't change the way people play it on this one, though.

Moving on.