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I kind of like Grotsnik and want to use him in a friendly game in some weeks. I see two ways of using hime - 1) buffing a 30-boy-aquad with fearless and FNP to give it back its old reliability; 2) buffing a squad of 3-5 meganobz in a truck or BW so that they can deliver some pain in my opponents ass . Just wondering if thouse are the only ways to use the Dok?

Some use him in a greentide formation.

Theoretically any unit benefits, but he's generally better in a smaller, more elite unit.

Big mobz don't need his fearless rule as mob rule is good enough until they've been shot to bits so much you no longer care if they run. You might as well take a normal painboy for less points

By comparison, something like meganobz can virtually never ignore a failed test by having 10+ models - because if you ever need to take a morale check, you must have taken a casualty, so can only have 9 meganobz left....

More importantly, small units are more likely to benefit from the second part of the Dok's awesomness - rampage. Rampaging mega-armour is truly ridiculous in its killing power.

Greentide? It`s form the Ghaz supplement, right? Then why not take the Big Boss Pole and a normal painboy? Would be cheaper and just as efficient. Unless the boyz allso get Rampage, but since half the armies out there are marines I doubt they will ever get the extra attacks.

You'd be hard pressed to ever get rampage in a unit with at least 101 models

Putting Grotsnik with MANz isn't the greatest idea either, most of his potential will be wasted since the unit already slaughters anything it touches. Fearless also has little use, since they still pass a fair amount of tests by simply rerolling mob rule with a boss pole, you rarely suffer any wounds from the resulting hits. Spending the additional points on extra MANz is way more efficient.

In total, Gortznik is a nice model in vacuum, but the codex doesn't really have place for him to go. You don't want him as your warlord, since you don't get a Waaagh! from him, fearless is only a small upgrade over mob rule in large mobs and rampage does little for them, in a small unit he is buffing too few models compared to his costs, and in elite units like nobz and MANz, he simply adds more overkill.

He'd probably be best in a unit of burnaz with a bunch of killsaw meks, since they benefit from all his abilities and rampage on AP2/3 weapons is sweet. However, burnaz aren't a good choice in the first place.

I agree with Jidmah. Grotsnik looks amazing but he has noone exceptionally good to stick too.

If you allready have the model, he might be ok with:

1. A 30-strong squad of regular boyz. - allows you to make a 2-d sturdy 30-strong unit without eating up 2 HQ slots on boss + painboss. Probably the way to go if you take a 3-HQ formation or have mek/wierdboy as a 4-th HQ in double CAD. Rampage will start to take place after the first initial charge later in the game when it most likely won't matter.
2. Wagonboyz. Same benefits and drawbacks as in the 1-st case.
3. MANz missile / truckboyz - rampage and extra durability are really useful but he makes a truck missile cost like 250-300 pts which the opponent is never gona allow to live through turn 1. And it contradicts the very purpose of 'missile'.

Grotsnik is basically a warboss that gives FNP for another unit of boyz. Throw him in 1 30man blob, have warboss + painboy in another, now you got 2 dead killy and durable units with a badass boss leading them.

Rampage will almost never be used. Only way you can get it is either in Council of Da Waaaagh! formation (usually around 10-13 models unless you max the nobz in the formation) or in a MANz missile. Problem with MANz is as Jidmah stated, they already kill everything dead so hes kinda wasted here. But theres also my philosophy - dont paint a giant bullseye on a unit that cant take it. MANz die quick when your opponent finally directs attention to them. You want them cheap, so if they do die its more of a loss to your opponent for dedicated fire than it is to you for losing them (3 manz will wreck just about anything they catch).

Hes just as nasty as he was in the previous dex. Technically previous dex he was stupid strong and buffed a unit tremendously, but the "old rage" he had made him useless. He doesnt have that anymore.

The issue is; I usually field warboss to get access to the Waaagh!. When you field Grotznik, you need to field another Warboss.

 Jidmah wrote:
The issue is; I usually field warboss to get access to the Waaagh!. When you field Grotznik, you need to field another Warboss.

That's exactly why you take him as the 3-d HQ. When you allready have a Warboss and Painboss. Or as a 2-d one when you have a boss in a squad that doesn't need a painboss, for example a megaboss with DLS accompanied by 18 boyz in a wagon don't necessarily need a Painboss to function. But your second wagonboyz will benefit from Grotsnik. Or when you're going for double cad and want something like a big mek or wierdboy. Boyz start functioning to their max potential when they have both a painboss for fnp and Warboss for extra pk attacks, ini4 (for sweeping advance), ld9. Grotsnik will sit on 2 chairs here.

As Vineheart01 said, Grotsnik is just warboss+painboss for the most part. Plus rampage and Fearless, minus Waaagh and 1 str, 1 ini. Don't know if 'urty surgine must be used instead of a pk to grant poison or it gives poison to your pk attacks making them basically shred.

You can only use one weapon, you can't combine them. An ork might, but you can't

It pretty much allows to chose whether you want the PK at I1 or the poison at I3.

 Jidmah wrote:
You can only use one weapon, you can't combine them. An ork might, but you can't

It pretty much allows to chose whether you want the PK at I1 or the poison at I3.

Maybe can be useful in some super-rare situations when you're fighting necron lord with ini2 and both Grotsnik and lord's down to 1 wound. Or some tyranid MC down to a wound. But once again, it's not even a 1 in 10 games situation when you want to forego pk for 4+ poison. Just good to have options, i guess.

Another situation when you could field Grotsnik is when you don't have anyone who benefits from WAAAAGH! For example, you have a few wagonz with MANZ backed with grots, big gunz, vehicles and stuff. And for some reason you don't want to take bully boyz, for example, you want to run squads of 3 to save points elsewhere.

Someone runs him with a Greentide not to get a painboy id-ed by s8-9 barrage and for extra wound. And it's perfectly reasonable.

Anywayz, we can summ it up that Grotsnik is Warboss + Painboss minus WAAAAAGH!

Note that, unlike pain boyz, grotznik actually has a slugga, so he'd get an additional attack when using the 'urty syringe. I'm currently too lazy to mathhammer it, but it might be useful against models with bad saves.

It's a bit better when you fight wytches/lesser daemons or charge Legion of the damned.

Well, it's a friendly game, so I don't mind a small overkill. He will be with my MANz in a trukk, just because I want to give my opponent a little piece of butthurt
Grotsnik as a 3d HQ? Seems interesting. Could be usefull when i get to field my boyz.

i am actually severely surprised there is no 'urty klaw type weapon. The new painboy model looks like he has a freakin powerklaw with injection needles for fingers. That does not translate to an 'urty syringe to me....

Or for that matter, letting painboys utilize powerklaws and/or other upgrades such as range weapons and relics. Thats the bigger reason why i feel that third hq is so important, the painboy we always have brings literally nothing but FNP since hes S5 AP- on the charge with 5 attacks...his rerolling from poison only works on T4 or less models now (must exceed rather than equal or exceed) so hes basically a sluggachoppa nob that always wounds on at worst a 4+ but has no ap possibilities.
Even if the 'urty klaw wasnt 2x str, but rather just AP2 and maybe +1str, i'd still take that on every painboy lol.

In the IA ork list the Painboss can take a power claw. A Sanguinary Priest can take any weapon. Why can't a Painboy do the same? Probably because of "forhing a narative"...

willing to bet their reasoning for that is "its just a nob with a special wargear list" - well...so is the big mek....the only difference between a bigmek and a nob is the LD8 and the wargear.

Weirdboyz should have access to the toys too.

I remember reading that weirdboyz are not given any weaponry because it keeps exploding around them. The new weirdboy staff is a nice upgrade though.

True that im glad they actually made the staff hes MODELED WITH actually do something. It wasnt even listed before, even though he clearly has one. I believe there was a way to make him count as having a power weapon if he activated powers 1-3 while in combat and which power weapon was defined by what hes holding if he didnt have a specific wargear listed, but truthfully how often did that happen...lol

Still too squishy though. Needs another "passes a psyker spell test" rule that grants him an invul or something along those lines.