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 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Than can you explain it to us?

Cliff notes...

What I've been arguing over Lordy isn't really about net neutrality...

It's all about "peering" and "transit agreements". If you want more info, go here:
https://www.techpolicyinstitute.org/files/amkinternetpeeringandtransit.pdf

Think about it like this... anyone who has to deliver large amounts of content and data across the Internet simply must engage in "peering and transit agreements."

Otherwise the burdens and costs become unmanageable.

That's the "Real World Order™" in this industry that has been very successful w/o much government intervention.

Google... owner of the bandwidth-hogging YouTube and one of the world’s biggest information databases, for example, peers like a mutha fether and for obvious reasons. See here:
http://www.peeringdb.com/view.php?asn=15169

If you own a small site... you pay to have it hosted on a service like Yahoo Domains. If your traffic becomes too much, you may have to move to a bigger service and start paying for transit. And if you grow that big (which is pretty big mind you), it’s likely you can afford to pay something. Ie, in Netflix vs Comcast case... and really, Cogent (originally the deliverer of Netflix content).

The recent streaming agreement between Netflix and Comcast essentially cut out Cogent between the two.

These agreements is actually VERY COMMON in this industry that the public largely doesn't know, hear or understand.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/10 17:00:29


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That's kind of interesting.

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 sebster wrote:
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So, the big argument right now is the best way to get information to the customer.

And if you're drinkin' well, you know that you're my friend and I say "I think I'll have myself a beer"
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Here's a fantastic article that sheds more light on these "interconnection deals":
Comcast vs. Netflix: Is this really about Net neutrality?
Netflix’s disputes with broadband providers, like Comcast, have zip to do with Net neutrality. Here's what you need to know about Net neutrality, and the Internet, to understand why.

If you noticed more buffering and sputtering when streaming video from Netflix a few months ago, you weren't alone. But who was really to blame? Your broadband provider or Netflix?

Netflix, which earlier this year reluctantly agreed to pay interconnection fees to broadband providers, has suggested that Comcast is to blame because it's violating principles of Net neutrality, which are all about keeping the Internet free and open.

Comcast has vigorously denied these assertions. Still, questions remain and confusion abounds over how the two ideas are linked or whether they should be linked at all. The confusion deepened with statements earlier this year by Netflix CEO Reed Hastings, who called on the FCC to adopt "stronger Net neutrality" regulation to ensure Netflix subscribers get flawless access to their streaming video.

So it comes as little surprise that as people try to understand the Net neutrality debate that's taking shape in Washington, D.C., right now, they would confuse it with the public dispute between Netflix and Comcast over interconnection fees.

That debate comes to a head Thursday as the Federal Communications Commission holds an open meeting to consider a controversial proposal regarding its Net neutrality rules. Passions are running high: activists have organized a public protest to coincide with today's FCC meeting. (Update 8:55 a.m. PT: The FCC voted Thursday to allow public comment on that proposal.)

In this edition of Ask Maggie, I try to clarify why the Netflix-Comcast wrangle has nothing to do with Net neutrality. I also take a stab at explaining what Net neutrality is and why anyone is still arguing about it

The real issue between Comcast and Netflix

Dear Maggie,

I've read some of your stories on Net neutrality. And I've read stories from others about Net neutrality and I'm confused. Lots of people say that Comcast is already violating Net neutrality by slowing down Netflix traffic. I watch Netflix and I have noticed the video quality is getting worse, especially in the evenings.

What I'm confused about is that the FCC chairman and other people, like you, say this is not a Net neutrality issue. How is that possible? Isn't Netflix already in a slow lane? I am utterly confused.

Can you please explain?

Thanks,

Net neutrality novice


Dear Net neutrality novice,

You aren't the only person who has confused the Netflix-Comcast dispute as a Net neutrality violation. To understand why it's not will require an understanding of some complicated issues.

The short answer to your question is that the dispute between Netflix and Comcast is not a Net neutrality issue because it does not have to do with how Comcast is treating Netflix's traffic once it's on the Comcast broadband network. Instead, it stems from a business dispute the two companies have over how Netflix is connecting to Comcast's network.

To more fully answer this question and explain what's happening here, you first have to understand what Net neutrality is and how the Internet works.

Defining Net neutrality

In a nutshell, Net neutrality is the principle that Internet service providers and governments should treat all Internet traffic the same. This means that Internet service providers should not block or slow down traffic on their local broadband networks based on individual users or the type of traffic those users are accessing or by the type of service that is sending the content.

The idea is to ensure that consumers can access any legal content they want, while also ensuring that companies using these broadband networks to reach their customers will not have their services interfered with by the companies that control the Internet connections into people's homes. Supporters of Net neutrality and even the federal appeals court that recently threw out the FCC's 2010 Open Internet rules on a legal technicality agree that broadband providers, especially in markets where there is little competition, may be tempted to block or degrade traffic for their own gain. Therefore, rules may be needed to ensure this doesn't happen.

The term "Net neutrality" was coined in 2003 by Columbia media law professor Tim Wu, who used it to explain how the concept of "common carriage" could be applied to the Internet. "Common carriage" is a centuries-old legal concept developed to ensure that the public retain access to fundamental services that use public rights of way. The national highway system and utilities such as water and electricity are regulated under this concept. The traditional telephone network is also regulated under the concept of common carriage.

In the context of the Internet, when people talk about the Internet being regulated as a common carrier or a utility, they're talking about making sure the infrastructure used to deliver Web pages, online video and audio streaming services, and all kinds of other Internet content get the same open access.

After more than a decade of legal battles and public debate, broadband providers say they also want an open Internet and they have consented to work with the FCC to develop formal rules of the road.

But significant disagreement remains over how these Net neutrality rules should be imposed and how strict they should be. For instance, Net neutrality supporters say they want the FCC to formally reclassify broadband as a Title II service under the 1996 Telecommunications Act, which they argue will allow the agency to apply common-carrier rules to the service and protect the Internet. Broadband providers say that reclassifying broadband services would stifle innovation and may not even be legal.

In terms of the strictness of the rules, Net neutrality supporters are concerned that without a common-carrier reclassification of broadband traffic, broadband providers would still be able to create priority services or fast lanes on their networks. They argue these fast lanes would necessarily mean slower access for all other services that don't pay for priority. And they believe it would serve as a barrier to entry for new competitors online, who may not be able to afford the added fee.

Broadband providers have not explicitly indicated that they'd develop these priority services. It could be argued, though, that providing such fast lanes of service could actually improve certain services, such as streaming audio and video, which are extremely sensitive to delay. In this case, consumers could very well benefit from services like Netflix or Amazon paying for priority lanes on congested broadband networks to deliver video traffic.

In any case, these are the issues currently being debated. And these are the issues that will be addressed in the FCC's proposal to rewrite its Open Internet rules, which are being opened for comment today.

What is not expected to be a part of the formal Open Internet rules is how broadband network operators connect to other networks. And that's the issue that you're really asking about regarding the Comcast-Netflix dispute.

How the Internet works

Before you can really understand what's happening between Comcast and Netflix, you first need to understand how the Internet works.

The Internet is not controlled by a single Internet service provider, like Comcast, AT&T, Verizon, or Time Warner Cable, that sells you broadband service. Instead, the Internet is made up of a series of networks that are all connected to each other. And when you request a video from Netflix or send your grandmother an email, the information is chopped into packets and sent over multiple networks until it reaches its final destination.

The only piece of the Internet that broadband providers, such as Comcast or Verizon, control is the so-called last mile of the Internet, which is connected to several other networks traversing the globe. When people talk about Net neutrality and making sure broadband providers don't monkey with Internet traffic, they're talking about the traffic when it reaches this part of the network.

The best way to imagine how the Internet works is to think of it like a system of roads and highways. The last mile is like the beltway that surrounds a city along with all the smaller county and city streets and roads that lead to individual homes. Ultimately, these roads connect to larger state highways and interstate highways that criss-cross the nation.

The other thing to realize about the Internet is that the network itself is a shared medium. Information is chopped into packets that traverse the Internet separately and are reassembled at their destinations. Packets from your email or a video you selected from Netflix travel alongside packets for everyone else's data. Just like a highway where all cars are subject to the same speed limit, but still travel at different speeds due to the congested road, some packets arrive at their destination sooner than others.

For some forms of communication it doesn't matter much if the packets arrive in order or if some arrive a little later than others. This is true of most text-based communications, such as text-based websites or email. But for other forms of communication, such as audio or video, it's crucial that all packets arrive in order and in close succession. If some packets are delayed or dropped, the experience of the video or audio once the packets are reassembled is not pleasant. There's often buffering, pixelation, and/or jitter.

The best way to ensure that video is delivered at a high-quality is to make sure there is enough room on the network for all the packets to arrive when they're supposed to. Network operators employ a bunch of techniques to manage congestion on their networks to ensure that this happens.

Years ago as the Internet was first becoming commercialized people realized that when you limit the distance and number of "network hops" between the server and the end user, the IP packets travel faster through the network. Fewer packets are lost or dropped and they tend to arrive in order on time. This not only speeds up the time it takes to download a web page, but it also improves the quality of video or audio that's being streamed.

Content companies building businesses and services online recognized this speed advantage, and they began working with companies that specialized in building servers all over the Internet that would store or cache popular information closer to where customers would access it. Companies like Akamai and Limelight pioneered what's become known as the content delivery network or CDN business. These companies specialized in building these networks, which if you think of the highway analogy I used before acted as a network of warehouses that were used to store the content closer to end users.

But in order to deliver the goods to end users, these companies still needed access to the roads or transit networks that would carry the packets to their destination. And in order to deliver their packets of content to end users, they would have to pay the owners of those networks -- that is, broadband providers like Comcast, Verizon, and AT&T.

In turn, companies, like Netflix, which have large amounts of content to distribute and want to ensure better quality of service for their consumers, contracted with CDNs, like Akamai, to deliver that content more efficiently. In those days, the cost of paying for transit over long distances was also quite expensive, which also factored into the business calculus of paying a CDN to act as a middleman and store content closer to consumers.

This is how the Internet has worked for more than a decade.

Meanwhile, there is another set of players, which I alluded to above. These players are called transit providers. These are companies, like Level 3 and Cogent as well as big telecom giants, like AT&T and Verizon, that have built networks or backbones that span continents. These companies carry all kinds of traffic and transport it to its final destination. Because it's impossible to build networks in every corner of the world, they have to hand off traffic to other providers, until the IP packets they're transporting ultimately reach their destinations.

This handoff of traffic is what's known as "interconnection" or "peering." In a "settlement-free peering" relationship, network operators simply swap equal amounts of traffic with one another without every exchanging payment.

But sometimes the balance of traffic is not equal. In that case, the companies enter into interconnection agreements where the network operator that is delivering more traffic than it accepts pays the network operator. These arrangements can be between two backbone providers or they can occur between backbone and last-mile broadband providers. Most of the time these are private deals between companies. And the public knows very little about the details of the arrangements.

But there are occasions when one party or both parties make public some details of the dispute, most often to gain some negotiating power in the relationship. This is exactly what happened in 2005 when Level 3 threatened to stop taking any traffic from Cogent. Level 3 said that Cogent was violating its arrangement by sending more traffic onto Level 3's network than Level 3 was sending onto Cogent's network. The two companies could not come to an agreement on the payment terms. Level 3 threatened to stop accepting Cogent traffic. Within a matter of weeks, the two companies settled their dispute. The final arrangement was never made public.

Over the years, the CDN business has gotten more competitive as the cost of transit or transporting packets over longer distances has dropped dramatically. Additionally, transit backbone providers, such as Level 3 and Cogent, have decided to get into the CDN business as well. In other words, they not only act as the truck drivers that carry the packets through the Internet, now they also own the warehouses where the content is stored until it's delivered to end-users.

Because the transit companies also own big chunks of the highway or network, they can undercut the traditional CDNs in terms of pricing. As a result, companies like Netflix have contracted with these companies to deliver their streaming video content to end-users.

So now these backbone transit operators are not only delivering their usual traffic load to networks throughout the world, but they've also now taken on additional traffic from their own CDN businesses. And eventually they will connect with last mile broadband networks to deliver the content to end users.

The result is that Level 3 and Cogent are now sending far more traffic onto some broadband networks than they are receiving. And here is where the disputes come into play. Level 3 and Cogent believe that their old peering relationships with broadband providers should still hold because they are simply delivering traffic to these networks as they have always done. But broadband providers, who are seeing dramatic increases in the amount of traffic coming from these transit providers, say that because of the imbalance in traffic, Level 3 and Cogent must now pay them to interconnect.

This has been the nature of arguments that Level 3 has had with Comcast and that Cogent has had with Verizon.


Netflix vs. Comcast

Meanwhile, Netflix, whose subscription video service now accounts for about 30 percent of all Internet traffic, has also built its own CDN network. So like pure CDN players such as Akamai and Limelight, as well as transit providers such as Level 3 and Cogent, Netflix now has its own network of video warehouses around the Internet that it's using to deliver content.

Because it has its own CDN, Netflix doesn't need to rely on anyone else to deliver its video. What's more, the company believes that if it eliminates these other network hops between its servers and the home video subscriber, it can deliver the video faster and at a higher quality.

As a result, it has been seeking deals that directly connect it with broadband providers to deliver its content. But as anyone who has streamed video knows, the amount of bandwidth that is needed to stream or download video far outweighs the amount of bandwidth needed to request such a video. And the result is a massive imbalance of traffic going onto the broadband network, which likely requires a commercial interconnection arrangement between Netflix and the various broadband network providers.

But Netflix has argued that the improvements in the quality of the video streaming to the broadband providers' customers is so valuable that broadband providers should not charge for the imbalance of traffic on their networks. After all, their customers are benefiting from the direct connection between Netflix and the broadband provider.


Some broadband providers have agreed to these terms. For example, cable operators Cablevision in the Northeast and Grande Communications in Texas have agreed to Netflix's business terms for interconnection. But bigger broadband providers, like Comcast and Verizon, have not. And they are requiring Netflix pay for the interconnection.

This is where the spat between Comcast and Netflix comes into the open. Netflix, which is likely hoping to pressure Comcast into offering better terms in its commercial business deal, has implied that this issue is somehow related to Net neutrality.

In a blog post in March, Netflix CEO Reed Hastings called for "stronger Net neutrality."

He explained: "Strong Net neutrality prevents ISPs from charging a toll for interconnection to services like Netflix, YouTube, or Skype, or intermediaries such as Cogent, Akamai, or Level 3, to deliver the services and data requested by ISP residential subscribers. Instead, they must provide sufficient access to their network without charge."

In other words, Hastings proposed that "strong Net neutrality" would also call on the government to outlaw the existing interconnection fees that companies charge each other when exchanging unequal amounts of data.

What FCC Chairman Tom Wheeler has said and other Internet experts also confirm is that the Net neutrality rules originally passed in 2010 were never intended to cover these interconnection business deals. Remember that Comcast and other broadband providers don't control your Internet traffic end-to-end. The content you request often travels over several networks before it reaches you. Broadband providers only control the traffic once it's on their networks. And it's this piece of the network that Net neutrality is designed to make sure stays free and open.

It's like complaining that New York City traffic cops are responsible for and should prevent traffic backups on the New Jersey Turnpike. While New York police may control the flow of traffic once cars enter the city, they don't have jurisdiction in New Jersey or anywhere else that the traffic originates. So they are somewhat limited in how they deal with the congestion.

The same is true of broadband providers. They can add more ports or points of entry into their networks. But adding additional ports costs money. It may not be a significant amount of money as it relates to the rest of their businesses, but it's still a cost. Comcast believes that Netflix should have to pay for those additional ports, whereas Netflix believes that Comcast should be responsible for that cost.

Even though the FCC's Wheeler doesn't see these interconnection relationships as a Net neutrality issue, that doesn't mean that the FCC still couldn't look into whether large broadband providers are abusing their power.

So far the FCC has not indicated whether it will consider looking into such matters. But given that Comcast, the largest cable operator is trying to buy Time Warner Cable, the second largest cable operator, it's likely that this issue will come up as the FCC examines whether it should approve the merger.

What's really happening with Netflix traffic?

So now we get to the other part of your question about whether Netflix is already in the Internet slow lane. Netflix has published data showing that its video streaming service has performed poorly over certain broadband networks, including Comcast, for several months. And it just so happens the networks that have seen poor performance are ones with which Netflix has had difficulty negotiating interconnection deals. As a result, some people have concluded that Comcast must be deliberately slowing Netflix traffic on its network until Netflix agrees to pay Comcast for better service. Individuals who have tested their Comcast network connections through speed tests confirm there appears to be plenty of capacity on their networks and yet the Netflix videos they are streaming are still buffering and sputtering as though the network were congested at full capacity.

So what gives?

Think back for a moment to my long explanation of how the Internet works. Now imagine that Netflix is funneling a large amount of its traffic through its own CDN connections to Comcast rather than distributing its traffic among the other 40 or so companies that Comcast has interconnection arrangements with.

In other words, Netflix is attaching a fire hose to the Comcast network, which is only equipped to handle connections the size of garden hoses. The gushing fire hose of content can't possibly be funneled into the few garden hose ports that are available. So packets are dropped and the service is degraded.

Netflix could fix this problem in one of two ways. It could pay for a fire hose connection instead of taking the garden hose connection that it can get through a standard peering relationship with Comcast. The large connection would accommodate the Netflix traffic. The other option is to distribute its traffic more evenly among other CDNs that are delivering traffic to Comcast. In this case, the video traffic could get onto the Comcast network via the many garden hoses already connected to the Comcast network.

Of course, in either instance this would cost Netflix more money. The company would either have to pay Comcast for more capacity or the company would have to pay CDNs more money to deliver its traffic. In either instance, the additional costs that Netflix would incur under either of these scenarios are not new. The company has always had to pay for the transit and delivery of its content.

The bottom line

I recognize that some people reading this will accuse me of being a shill for the broadband companies since it appears by my description of how the Internet works that I agree with all their business practices. The truth is I don't know what happens in the back rooms where these companies negotiate their interconnection deals. All I can tell you is that these negotiations happen. And this process for doing business on the Internet has been happening for years.

Should the government be involved in these negotiations to ensure that no one is manipulating the quality of Internet services that consumers experience? I don't know the answer to that.

But I think it's something that is worth examining. Because the details of these deals are kept secret, it's hard to say whether the big broadband companies are doing anything nefarious. If regulators could get a look at these deals and examine them to see what is really happening, maybe we'd have a better idea of whether there are real abuses or anticompetitive behavior going on.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/10 18:08:49


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 whembly wrote:
Otherwise the burdens and costs become unmanageable.


The reality is that cable companies are exploiting a legal gray zone to change regulations in a market that already heavily favors them to favor them more. It has nothing to do with burdening costs (which is just as much a myth as the music industry's "piracy is killing us" line). It's simply these companies trying to make it legal to double dip into the market and charge both ends.

The reality is that it has everything to do with Net Neutrality and actually very little to do with Netflix. The real targets are Google and Amazon (but they have much bigger legal departments than Netflix, so Netflix is the easier one to take to court).

w/o much government intervention.


You really don't understand net neutrality.


If you own a small site... you pay to have it hosted on a service like Yahoo Domains.


Yeah you pay for server space and maintenance. The actual bandwidth you're paying for isn't a cable providers it's Yahoo!'s because company's like Yahoo! and Netflix already pay for internet access and bandwidth (like the rest of us).

This:

Level 3 said that Cogent was violating its arrangement by sending more traffic onto Level 3's network than Level 3 was sending onto Cogent's network. The two companies could not come to an agreement on the payment terms. Level 3 threatened to stop accepting Cogent traffic. Within a matter of weeks, the two companies settled their dispute. The final arrangement was never made public.


Has always been the case. It's the simple reality of the internet that traffic tends to flow more heavily in certain directions, especially when you compare a massive network like Comcast's to a smaller one like Cognet. This is not a new thing. The arrangements the above article talks about have never been between websites and internet service providers (it's strictly been 1 provider to another provider because they needed to share lines).

The entire article is basically just shovel for Comcast, who has spent this entire debate twisting reality. Not to mention the article completely glosses over that if the cable companies have their way, in all probability Netflix will die. You do know Comcast owns large stakes in Hulu right?

These agreements is actually VERY COMMON in this industry that the public largely doesn't know, hear or understand.


No they are not common at all. You've been drinking too much of Comcast's coolaid. The agreement between Comcast and Netflix is unheard of. A website has never been forced to pay a cable provider extra before.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/10 20:43:07


   
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*reads just the OP*

Ahhhh, finally a topic where we can set aside our various beliefs and politics, where conservative and progressive, feminist & MRA, Gun Rights and Gun Control, Space Marine and Tau can all come together under the banner of 'we are citizens of the net' and we want it protected. Because surely, surely no one (who's not one of the corporate proles who're set to profit) would actually be against Net Neutrality.

Surely.

*reads actual thread*

. . .

*headdesk*


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Part of the problem is that the FCC has been left to dangle this kind of on its own (the issue isn't big enough to interest Congress) and on their own the FCC's options are limited. It doesn't help that the head of the FCC used to work for Verizon, and naturally favors the position of the cable companies.

   
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 LordofHats wrote:

No they are not common at all. You've been drinking too much of Comcast's coolaid. The agreement between Comcast and Netflix is unheard of. A website has never been forced to pay a cable provider extra before.

Do some more research.

See the firehose vs gardenhose analogy from my previous post.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LordofHats wrote:
Part of the problem is that the FCC has been left to dangle this kind of on its own (the issue isn't big enough to interest Congress) and on their own the FCC's options are limited. It doesn't help that the head of the FCC used to work for Verizon, and naturally favors the position of the cable companies.

You mean, the same FCC head that Obama nominated? I thought you were all about letting the duly elected President "have his men" nominated to these posts???

Seriously, I do think that's a problem... how would you combat against that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LordofHats wrote:
You do know Comcast owns large stakes in Hulu right?

I've mentioned before that those should be investigated... simply on monopoly grounds.

Same with Comcast/GE holding over the NBC products.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/10 21:40:13


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 whembly wrote:

Do some more research.


The kind of research that leads to the conclusion that net neutrality stifles innovation and that a company that has seen it's net division profits double from 99 to 09 (and a 30% boost in 2012) is suffering an unmanageable burden because Google is streaming some videos? Yeah sorry. Some of us do real research and the only fiction I read is dreamy teen vampire romances


 whembly wrote:

You mean, the same FCC head that Obama nominated?


Unfortunately. He was doing a somewhat okayish job too.

Seriously, I do think that's a problem... how would you combat against that?


I'm not really saying it's a problem. Naturally, people use their past experiences to influence future decisions. The current FCC chair has past experiences that is libel to lean him towards favoring the position of cable companies (and he's said as such).


I've mentioned before that those should be investigated... simply on monopoly grounds.

Same with Comcast/GE holding over the NBC products.


Yeah. Given that the US Government has maintained net neutrality and nonintervention in the market the last 30 years, I think I'm favoring them over a company that's been trying to abolish such things since the mid-90s.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/10 21:45:40


   
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 LordofHats wrote:
 whembly wrote:

Do some more research.


The kind of research that leads to the conclusion that net neutrality stifles innovation and that a company that has seen it's net division profits double from 99 to 09 (and a 30% boost in 2012) is suffering an unmanageable burden because Google is streaming some videos? Yeah sorry. Some of us do real research and the only fiction I read is dreamy teen vampire romances

These days, net neutrality is trying to push the reclassification of ISPs to Title II utilities... that's where it'll stifle innovation.

 whembly wrote:

You mean, the same FCC head that Obama nominated?


Unfortunately. He was doing a somewhat okayish job too.

Eh... it seems he's playing both sides... like a true politician

Seriously, I do think that's a problem... how would you combat against that?


I'm not really saying it's a problem. Naturally, people use their past experiences to influence future decisions. The current FCC chair has past experiences that is libel to lean him towards favoring the position of cable companies (and he's said as such).

What I would, for all political positions, is to either enact a moratorium that ex-political office holders from working in the same industry for a year, or tax them on top of the existing tax structure... or something like that.

*shrug*


I've mentioned before that those should be investigated... simply on monopoly grounds.

Same with Comcast/GE holding over the NBC products.


Yeah. Given that the US Government has maintained net neutrality and nonintervention in the market the last 30 years, I think I'm favoring them over a company that's been trying to abolish such things since the mid-90s.

I still favor the companies over increased government regulation (as currently proposed).


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 whembly wrote:

These days, net neutrality is trying to push the reclassification of ISPs to Title II utilities... that's where it'll stifle innovation.


Except the stated purpose of that push is to allow the FCC to say "may net neutrality reign" a position they've held strong to for years. I'm not even asking you to take their word that that's all they want to do, they have 3 decades of history to back up that that is what they'll do. Then when the cable companies say "we swear we won't screw anyone" I can only thing of this 20 year long battle to end net neutrality, their virtual monopolies on a captive consumer base, and think "why would you bother if you weren't going to screw us?"

Net neutrality is the opposite of government intervention. It's an outright statement that data on the internet can move freely. It's the same thing as saying "the only rule is that there are no rules."

What I would, for all political positions, is to either enact a moratorium that ex-political office holders from working in the same industry for a year, or tax them on top of the existing tax structure... or something like that.


Well really. Like Obama could see this coming when he appointed Tom Wheeler to the position. Net neutrality was a minor point for him in both his elections, so he was probably banking that 30 years of the courts favoring the FCC's neutrality position would just keep going and had no reason to think otherwise.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/10 22:09:13


   
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I remember the last thread on this topic with a handful of users claiming that if NN was thrown out the window, then nothing would change.

http://www.zdnet.com/level-3-accuses-major-isps-of-forcing-internet-traffic-into-the-slow-lane-7000029200/
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/03/level-3-blames-internet-slowdowns-on-isps-refusal-to-upgrade-networks/

Sorry, I as a consumer can't accept a lack of regulation on our ISPs. Forget classifying them as common carriers, fine them into obvlivion until they upgrade their networks.

It's sad when Estonia beats the US in bandwidth and/or speed. We're way behind in network infanstructure.

When is deadly danger,
When beset by doubt,
Run in little circles,
And wave your hands and shout. 
   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

This is a pretty good explaination


Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

"it goes against the free market to instill a neutral environment."

^Uttered by someone who doesn't give a damn about the free market because their entire business model is built around a monopoly.

It's really hard to hate that guy when he keeps making good videos... Though for the life of me I can't remember why I hate him...

   
Made in au
Guardsman with Flashlight




Perth, Australia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz4Ej3IVefo

another explanation to NN

Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist-.
George Carlin 
   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

I watched that, it's pretty good.

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

 The Airman wrote:
I remember the last thread on this topic with a handful of users claiming that if NN was thrown out the window, then nothing would change.

http://www.zdnet.com/level-3-accuses-major-isps-of-forcing-internet-traffic-into-the-slow-lane-7000029200/
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/03/level-3-blames-internet-slowdowns-on-isps-refusal-to-upgrade-networks/

Sorry, I as a consumer can't accept a lack of regulation on our ISPs. Forget classifying them as common carriers, fine them into obvlivion until they upgrade their networks.

It's sad when Estonia beats the US in bandwidth and/or speed. We're way behind in network infanstructure.


North America, the US especially, is essentially a third world country when it comes to internet access, except the management is even more corrupt.
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2014/08/12/339710293/a-fascinating-look-inside-those-1-1-million-open-internet-comments

Thought you might all want to hear about this O.o

1.1 Million open internet comments.


Apparently FCC is sorting through the emails

From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
Made in us
Most Glorious Grey Seer





Everett, WA

I don't mind the concept of a "fast lane" being made available for a fee. What would bother me is a) inequality of access to that "fast lane" - everyone that wants to pay should be allowed to. b) providers using their power to block competition - Comcast shouldn't impede YouTube while boosting Netflix. Or c) (my big fear) a multi-tiered speed system where small fish get pushed to the internet backwaters - two speeds is more than enough.


 
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

You realize that by "fast lane," it'd end up turning today's current speeds into today's "fast lane," and tomorrow's slow lane into something unusable.

America's internet is already a pitiful excuse for a joke to the rest of the world. The last thing you need is a system that excuses worse.
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

 Breotan wrote:
I don't mind the concept of a "fast lane" being made available for a fee. What would bother me is a) inequality of access to that "fast lane" - everyone that wants to pay should be allowed to. b) providers using their power to block competition - Comcast shouldn't impede YouTube while boosting Netflix. Or c) (my big fear) a multi-tiered speed system where small fish get pushed to the internet backwaters - two speeds is more than enough.



This 'fast' lane would be more like a normal speed, and everyone else's lanes would be slower, so only companies associated with these major companies would get this 'fast' lane.

This fast lane would not be faster.

Its impossible to increase the speed, we are currently at the point where there are too many users on the internet and all the space is being used by smart phones and various other types of devices.


I still favor the companies over increased government regulation (as currently proposed).


Well that makes sense considering your beliefs.

Government bad,

Companies good,

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/11 11:28:18


From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Asherian Command wrote:
 Breotan wrote:
I don't mind the concept of a "fast lane" being made available for a fee. What would bother me is a) inequality of access to that "fast lane" - everyone that wants to pay should be allowed to. b) providers using their power to block competition - Comcast shouldn't impede YouTube while boosting Netflix. Or c) (my big fear) a multi-tiered speed system where small fish get pushed to the internet backwaters - two speeds is more than enough.



This 'fast' lane would be more like a normal speed, and everyone else's lanes would be slower, so only companies associated with these major companies would get this 'fast' lane.

This fast lane would not be faster.

Its impossible to increase the speed, we are currently at the point where there are too many users on the internet and all the space is being used by smart phones and various other types of devices.

That's not how it works...

I still favor the companies over increased government regulation (as currently proposed).


Well that makes sense considering your beliefs.

Government bad,

Companies good,

For the most part... yup.

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in pt
Tea-Kettle of Blood




 whembly wrote:
 Asherian Command wrote:
 Breotan wrote:
I don't mind the concept of a "fast lane" being made available for a fee. What would bother me is a) inequality of access to that "fast lane" - everyone that wants to pay should be allowed to. b) providers using their power to block competition - Comcast shouldn't impede YouTube while boosting Netflix. Or c) (my big fear) a multi-tiered speed system where small fish get pushed to the internet backwaters - two speeds is more than enough.



This 'fast' lane would be more like a normal speed, and everyone else's lanes would be slower, so only companies associated with these major companies would get this 'fast' lane.

This fast lane would not be faster.

Its impossible to increase the speed, we are currently at the point where there are too many users on the internet and all the space is being used by smart phones and various other types of devices.

That's not how it works...


Actually that is exactly how it works.

Transmission speeds are constrained by the available bandwidth. With the strains that internet networks already have, for something to be faster, everything else would have to be slower.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 whembly wrote:

These days, net neutrality is trying to push the reclassification of ISPs to Title II utilities... that's where it'll stifle innovation.


In the free market that you seem to like so much, innovation should be incentivized through competition, but since these companies in the US operate in virtual monopolies that competition doesn't exist. Do you wan't better internet service? Break the monopolies in which these companies operate.

Net Neutrality doesn't stifle innovation in any way shape or form, what it does do is stifle the ability of these companies to charge twice for the same service.

I can't even begin to understand how someone that isn't a majority shareholder in one of these companies can be against such a thing!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/11 14:45:00


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

PhantomViper wrote:
 whembly wrote:
 Asherian Command wrote:
 Breotan wrote:
I don't mind the concept of a "fast lane" being made available for a fee. What would bother me is a) inequality of access to that "fast lane" - everyone that wants to pay should be allowed to. b) providers using their power to block competition - Comcast shouldn't impede YouTube while boosting Netflix. Or c) (my big fear) a multi-tiered speed system where small fish get pushed to the internet backwaters - two speeds is more than enough.



This 'fast' lane would be more like a normal speed, and everyone else's lanes would be slower, so only companies associated with these major companies would get this 'fast' lane.

This fast lane would not be faster.

Its impossible to increase the speed, we are currently at the point where there are too many users on the internet and all the space is being used by smart phones and various other types of devices.

That's not how it works...


Actually that is exactly how it works.

Transmission speeds are constrained by the available bandwidth. With the strains that internet networks already have, for something to be faster, everything else would have to be slower.

That's only TRUE if you believe technologies are static.

Yes, bandwidth is a discrete finite "resource"... but, these companies invest billions every year in the infrastructure.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
PhantomViper wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 whembly wrote:

These days, net neutrality is trying to push the reclassification of ISPs to Title II utilities... that's where it'll stifle innovation.


In the free market that you seem to like so much, innovation should be incentivized through competition, but since these companies in the US operate in virtual monopolies that competition doesn't exist. Do you wan't better internet service? Break the monopolies in which these companies operate.

Net Neutrality doesn't stifle innovation in any way shape or form, what it does do is stifle the ability of these companies to charge twice for the same service.

I can't even begin to understand how someone that isn't a majority shareholder in one of these companies can be against such a thing!

What's broken now?


*note, the competition is pretty intense between cable/baby-bell/wirless companies.

Additionally, it's only a monopoly by region, not in the industry.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/09/11 14:49:17


Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN (Currently in WY)

 mega_bassist wrote:
So, the big argument right now is the best way to get information to the customer.


No it's more about who gets to make money from the Internet and how.


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Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

whembly wrote:


*note, the competition is pretty intense between cable/baby-bell/wirless companies.


Except the cable company lobbies have managed to pass into law regulations that have crippled the growth of wireless internet providers. And that's ignoring the innate and overwhelming market advantage that comes with selling television, phone, and internet services as a package.

it's only a monopoly by region, not in the industry.


If you're the only game in town, you have a monopoly. That other games exist on the planet is irrelevant to the consumer who lives in town.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/11 14:56:13


   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

 whembly wrote:
PhantomViper wrote:
 whembly wrote:
 Asherian Command wrote:
 Breotan wrote:
I don't mind the concept of a "fast lane" being made available for a fee. What would bother me is a) inequality of access to that "fast lane" - everyone that wants to pay should be allowed to. b) providers using their power to block competition - Comcast shouldn't impede YouTube while boosting Netflix. Or c) (my big fear) a multi-tiered speed system where small fish get pushed to the internet backwaters - two speeds is more than enough.



This 'fast' lane would be more like a normal speed, and everyone else's lanes would be slower, so only companies associated with these major companies would get this 'fast' lane.

This fast lane would not be faster.

Its impossible to increase the speed, we are currently at the point where there are too many users on the internet and all the space is being used by smart phones and various other types of devices.

That's not how it works...


Actually that is exactly how it works.

Transmission speeds are constrained by the available bandwidth. With the strains that internet networks already have, for something to be faster, everything else would have to be slower.

That's only TRUE if you believe technologies are static.

Yes, bandwidth is a discrete finite "resource"... but, these companies invest billions every year in the infrastructure.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
PhantomViper wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 whembly wrote:

These days, net neutrality is trying to push the reclassification of ISPs to Title II utilities... that's where it'll stifle innovation.


In the free market that you seem to like so much, innovation should be incentivized through competition, but since these companies in the US operate in virtual monopolies that competition doesn't exist. Do you wan't better internet service? Break the monopolies in which these companies operate.

Net Neutrality doesn't stifle innovation in any way shape or form, what it does do is stifle the ability of these companies to charge twice for the same service.

I can't even begin to understand how someone that isn't a majority shareholder in one of these companies can be against such a thing!

What's broken now?


*note, the competition is pretty intense between cable/baby-bell/wirless companies.

Additionally, it's only a monopoly by region, not in the industry.


Bandwidth is not infinite, is finite. There is only so much Bandwidth in the AIR

From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

I think you're confusing signal bandwidth with networking bandwidth. Networking bandwidth for all practical reasons, is limited only by how many cables you have to carry the data (and is what Comcast and Netflix were fighting about).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/11 15:02:28


   
Made in pt
Tea-Kettle of Blood




 whembly wrote:

That's only TRUE if you believe technologies are static.


That is true right now, no one can predict what will happen in the future or what type of technology will be developed. But with the current technology there is no such thing as a 'fast lane'.

 whembly wrote:

Yes, bandwidth is a discrete finite "resource"... but, these companies invest billions every year in the infrastructure.


And? Unless they control all the physical networks from the origin up to the end consumer, that doesn't change anything of what I said.

 whembly wrote:

What's broken now?


*note, the competition is pretty intense between cable/baby-bell/wirless companies.


What is broken now in the US (from what I've read), is that all the major cable companies have "secret" or "unspoken" agreements not to interfere in each other's markets making it that each cable company will have a virtual monopoly in those markets.

Competition between smaller cable companies and wireless companies is probably as fierce as you say, but since those companies don't have the resources of the larger companies, they end up having to pay the majors to rent their networks to guarantee coverage to their customers, and that is as it should be. But makes it so that they end up not competing in an equal footing to Verizon and the likes.
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

 LordofHats wrote:
I think you're confusing signal bandwidth with networking bandwidth. Networking bandwidth for all practical reasons, is limited only by how many cables you have to carry the data.


Except there is also the issue that there is currently too many users using bandwidth in the air.

They call it the Bandwidth Crunch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwidth_allocation

or the Spectrum Crunch




Accordingly the issue has been becoming a larger issue over the years.

Have you ever noticed how the internet is spotty during the night but in the morning its fantastic? The main reasoning is that there are tons of people using the internet at the same time. That its taking up the bandwidth.

Considering that most devices that connect to the internet are wireless nowadays.

From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
 
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