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Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Actually, I gotta correct myself for a part. According to Urban Dictionary:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=social+justice+warrior

A pejorative term for an individual who repeatedly and vehemently engages in arguments on social justice on the Internet, often in a shallow or not well-thought-out way, for the purpose of raising their own personal reputation.[...]

Perfectly fits to Zoe Quinn.

I don't think that it fully applies to Sarkeesian, however, as she was mainly interested in cash and then pretty much went under the radar after the first impact, being rather quiet about most issues.

   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Canada

 Valion wrote:
Also, if you haven't read the techraptr interview with Daniel Vavra about this whole kerfuffle, you should.
http://techraptor.net/2014/09/12/interview-daniel-vavra/
Then you should go buy his games.
I like him, thanks for the link.
This quote has some relevance to what I have been thinking in these discussions:

" The biggest problem we have is, that there is a group of people that think they know what’s right and what’s wrong and that they have a mission to make the world a better place and protect the oppressed by any means. They don’t even care what the “oppressed” people think. They censor any feedback they don’t like. They try to censor Twitter. They think that they are better than the rest. It’s funny that they are absolutely unable to have any discussion or provide solid arguments. Have you ever seen any of them in direct confrontation with their opponents? I guess you didn’t, because they only know how to bark at others from behind the fence and then how to play victims when somebody barks back.

And they will never be happy. If you don’t have a gay character in your game, you are homophobic, if you do have gay character in your game, you are homophobic, because they don’t like the character. If women in your game look good, you are sexist, if they look bad, you are sexist, if you can fight with them, you are misogynistic, if you can’t fight with them, you are using them as objects, if you don’t have any women, because there is no correct way how to have them, you are misogynistic.

It’s a witch hunt and it’s affecting my artistic freedom.
" - Daniel Vavra

I have felt that no matter what opinion or view expressed by me: "it is wrong and is the typical opinion of the unenlightened" when faced by those with "an iron in the fire".
Unless I am a woman, gay, an ethnic minority, an internet celebrity or an endangered species what I have to say is not relevant because I am not one of the oppressed.
I, like others have a part to play in all this: to behave myself, give good people a fair shake and keep my mind open.

I have found exposure to both ends of the spectrum of the #Gamergate scandal has narrowed my mind wonderfully (against my mentioned keeping an open mind):
I have no patience for those who feel entitled to their opinion but will not allow or acknowledge mine.

A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

 Talizvar wrote:
 Valion wrote:
Also, if you haven't read the techraptr interview with Daniel Vavra about this whole kerfuffle, you should.
http://techraptor.net/2014/09/12/interview-daniel-vavra/
Then you should go buy his games.
I like him, thanks for the link.
This quote has some relevance to what I have been thinking in these discussions:

" The biggest problem we have is, that there is a group of people that think they know what’s right and what’s wrong and that they have a mission to make the world a better place and protect the oppressed by any means. They don’t even care what the “oppressed” people think. They censor any feedback they don’t like. They try to censor Twitter. They think that they are better than the rest. It’s funny that they are absolutely unable to have any discussion or provide solid arguments. Have you ever seen any of them in direct confrontation with their opponents? I guess you didn’t, because they only know how to bark at others from behind the fence and then how to play victims when somebody barks back.

And they will never be happy. If you don’t have a gay character in your game, you are homophobic, if you do have gay character in your game, you are homophobic, because they don’t like the character. If women in your game look good, you are sexist, if they look bad, you are sexist, if you can fight with them, you are misogynistic, if you can’t fight with them, you are using them as objects, if you don’t have any women, because there is no correct way how to have them, you are misogynistic.

It’s a witch hunt and it’s affecting my artistic freedom.
" - Daniel Vavra

I have felt that no matter what opinion or view expressed by me: "it is wrong and is the typical opinion of the unenlightened" when faced by those with "an iron in the fire".
Unless I am a woman, gay, an ethnic minority, an internet celebrity or an endangered species what I have to say is not relevant because I am not one of the oppressed.
I, like others have a part to play in all this: to behave myself, give good people a fair shake and keep my mind open.

I have found exposure to both ends of the spectrum of the #Gamergate scandal has narrowed my mind wonderfully (against my mentioned keeping an open mind):
I have no patience for those who feel entitled to their opinion but will not allow or acknowledge mine.


I've been reading that and it is extremely true.

I am fully on Daniel's side.

The enitre point of censoring the world is kind off crazy.

From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Canada

 Asherian Command wrote:
The enitre point of censoring the world is kind off crazy.
It also conveys an inherent arrogance to assume to censor others.

If I don't like what someone writes, I take it up with them.
We discuss and come to an understanding.
If the understanding is that the person will remain offensive to me: I will not seek out their postings and possibly actively block them from me.
To try to stop the person from communicating to others rarely is thought of (unless some "scam" where protection from "harm" may be needed).
This is pretty much it.

A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

 Talizvar wrote:
 Asherian Command wrote:
The enitre point of censoring the world is kind off crazy.
It also conveys an inherent arrogance to assume to censor others.

If I don't like what someone writes, I take it up with them.
We discuss and come to an understanding.
If the understanding is that the person will remain offensive to me: I will not seek out their postings and possibly actively block them from me.
To try to stop the person from communicating to others rarely is thought of (unless some "scam" where protection from "harm" may be needed).
This is pretty much it.


I think the only time you should censor someone is if they are actively harrassing, bullying, and threatening to you.

Criticism are often confused to be harassment which is really sad.

I remember I criticized one of my friends and they took it as me being rude, they gave me a paper to mark up and edit. They told me to be upfront and honest.

I was upfront and honest, and criticized all parts of their work. And even the message. I gave examples of what to do and how to do it. That is something I would expect in turn. But do not talk to me while you are editting the piece, the entire point of editting someone's work is to see it from the perspective of a new reader on the piece and do not know anything about me. That is how criticize the work. You approach it as a reader and with cyncism, You take things as they are, and if they have metaphors or hidden messages you address it. IF they do things correctly you congratulate them, but you help them make that message even stronger or more entertaining or more meaningful.

But people often confuse harassment and criticism, they are often times confused as negative. Criticism is not always negative, it is meant to enable the writer, to learn from their mistakes and improve their writing. But harassment is completely negative. That is sending gargle and hate towards people.

I think this silencing of the critics is something shameful to do as a journalist. That is like what my friend did. After that, she no longer gave me her paper to mark up and look over. All she wanted was to have gratification to be told that her work is good.

As many people here know. I am a writer, and a novelist in training. I will keep writing and I will keep submitting my work to get criticism, I want to be criticized. If some critics my work, I will listen, but I will not listen to harassment. As a person and a writer, it is up to me to know the difference between a critic, and a harasser.

That is something you must take to heart. If you do not. You have no place in the media or writing.

These articles though on Gamers are Dead, Gamers are Sexists, Gamers are Evil, Those articles as critic are completely out of place...

You do not write those types of articles. You do not decry an entire community what you do do. Is raise awareness by saying. Harassment in Gaming.

And not generalize, you say the minority in gaming, or you raise awareness of the problem within it.

The point of Journalism is to report, to give facts.

IF they are attacking the community they say they are representing, then they are no longer fit to call themselves representing the best interests of gamers. They have the responsibility to represent the gaming community. Not the journalists pockets or money thoughts, but the best interest of the community.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/12 19:05:15


From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
Made in gb
Renegade Inquisitor de Marche






Elephant Graveyard

Editing and criticism are different things.

Dakka Bingo! By Ouze
"You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry. 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

 purplefood wrote:
Editing and criticism are different things.


They told me to give an honest opinion and to edit their work.

I think the two work hand in hand.

Criticism and Editting are both processes to understand and work with.

When I posted my Piece called Black Inked. It was panned. People said it was far too confusing and too lovely dovey. A few months ago, I revisited it, and rewrote it accordingly. I reread it and went through processes, but I will probably not post it up until I deem it ready for viewing till, I am satisfied with my work.

But the thing is that these writers/journalists actively avoid criticism, and silence them.

From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Canada

 Asherian Command wrote:
But the thing is that these writers/journalists actively avoid criticism, and silence them.

What I think it is all about. Or maybe this:

A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte 
   
Made in gb
Renegade Inquisitor de Marche






Elephant Graveyard

 Asherian Command wrote:
 purplefood wrote:
Editing and criticism are different things.


They told me to give an honest opinion and to edit their work.

I think the two work hand in hand.

Criticism and Editting are both processes to understand and work with.

When I posted my Piece called Black Inked. It was panned. People said it was far too confusing and too lovely dovey. A few months ago, I revisited it, and rewrote it accordingly. I reread it and went through processes, but I will probably not post it up until I deem it ready for viewing till, I am satisfied with my work.

But the thing is that these writers/journalists actively avoid criticism, and silence them.

Critiquing something is recognising mistakes and the good points of something. Changing anything is up to the author's discretion at this point.
Editing is the act of changing something. A few words in the right place can change the tone of a whole article. It can be likened to censorship in some cases.
One usually happens after the other. They are not mutually inclusive.
One can wish to avoid people editing their work without wishing to avoid criticism.

Dakka Bingo! By Ouze
"You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry. 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

 purplefood wrote:
 Asherian Command wrote:
 purplefood wrote:
Editing and criticism are different things.


They told me to give an honest opinion and to edit their work.

I think the two work hand in hand.

Criticism and Editting are both processes to understand and work with.

When I posted my Piece called Black Inked. It was panned. People said it was far too confusing and too lovely dovey. A few months ago, I revisited it, and rewrote it accordingly. I reread it and went through processes, but I will probably not post it up until I deem it ready for viewing till, I am satisfied with my work.

But the thing is that these writers/journalists actively avoid criticism, and silence them.

Critiquing something is recognising mistakes and the good points of something. Changing anything is up to the author's discretion at this point.
Editing is the act of changing something. A few words in the right place can change the tone of a whole article. It can be likened to censorship in some cases.
One usually happens after the other. They are not mutually inclusive.
One can wish to avoid people editing their work without wishing to avoid criticism.


True.

But both are extremely useful. I am not saying that one cannot happen without the other it just really helps the the writing process more.




But anyway... .Back on topic.

There has been no updates as of yet. Other than the whole Antia and Zoe Quinn situations.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/12 20:48:47


From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

 Mechanical Crow wrote:
But here we go again, muddy the waters of people doing bad things and making it about misogyny because that fits the narrative.

Its not about misogyny FFS.


Misogyny is a bad thing though, as you said yourself.

To be frank misogyny is a much worse thing than some dodgy computer game reviews.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

 Kilkrazy wrote:
 Mechanical Crow wrote:
But here we go again, muddy the waters of people doing bad things and making it about misogyny because that fits the narrative.

Its not about misogyny FFS.


Misogyny is a bad thing though, as you said yourself.

To be frank misogyny is a much worse thing than some dodgy computer game reviews.


Its on the same level as Racism.

Though personally I think there is less people who are misognist as there are the concerned consumer who are rallying to defeat the games media.

From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Then it is a pity that the campaign to defeat the games media should concentrate on bashing a woman developer and a woman journalist, because that makes it look misogynistic.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Then it is a pity that the campaign to defeat the games media should concentrate on bashing a woman developer and a woman journalist, because that makes it look misogynistic.


Thats not what is going on. XD

Please refer to the links.

There are currently many things going on. Mainly the radical elements of journalists Phil Fish and Many journalists from polygon have been getting targeted for saying certain things and for writing a few articles.

Leigh Alexander is a big time reporter and has often threatened quite a few people by saying such things as. "Feeding on the tears of gamers." And "Ruining the dreams of others."

She is not being targeted because she is a woman, she is being targeted for what she has written and for the corruption she has created. By having personal relations and for donating to multiple developers and giving them good reviews due to their relations.

The main issue has always been integrity, transparency, and corruption in gaming media.

People just have been talking about quin because she is adding fuel on the fire. And has made wild claims.

She is mainly in it to gain attention. She is an attention seeker and is known for doing many bad things. I think The Fine Young Captialists have talked about her in detail and their dealings with her.

I mean if you have read the information given and the information in this thread the main backlash has been because of the mass censorship of the event.

From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
Made in gb
Renegade Inquisitor de Marche






Elephant Graveyard

Oh please. The games journalism industry is already corrupt. She didn't spread it or start it.
The FYC thing was just atrocious frankly.
Phil Fish should learn no one cares what he thinks anymore/ever. The man has quit twice for pete's sake.

Dakka Bingo! By Ouze
"You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry. 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Asherian Command wrote:
She is not being targeted because she is a woman, she is being targeted for what she has written and for the corruption she has created. By having personal relations and for donating to multiple developers and giving them good reviews due to their relations.


If she isn't targeted because she's a woman then why is she singled out for criticism while her male colleagues are pretty much ignored? It's not like corruption in gaming journalism is anything new, we've known for years (or even decades!) that game reviews constantly give inflated scores to mediocre products, and the close relationship between the media and the businesses they report on ensures that it stays that way. The surprising thing here isn't that the reviewers are corrupt, it's that there are still people in 2014 who are surprised by this fact.

The main issue has always been integrity, transparency, and corruption in gaming media.


Really? Because if that's the main issue then "your" side needs to learn how to communicate properly. Because right now all I see is the same old whining about "social justice warriors" and "feminism ruins everything". If there are any legitimate points about the gaming media buried somewhere in that mess they aren't being presented very well.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

 purplefood wrote:
Oh please. The games journalism industry is already corrupt. She didn't spread it or start it.
The FYC thing was just atrocious frankly.
Phil Fish should learn no one cares what he thinks anymore/ever. The man has quit twice for pete's sake.


Wait how was it Atrocious? The FYC?

I mean they have a lot of good intentions. And have stayed pretty level headed through out this.


I mean its not like its been a secret that games journalism has not been corrupt. I don't think it ever has not been corrupt.

I've always assumed it to be corrupt, but now it is time to change that. To make journalism better. The consumers want it, and they shall have it.


Really? Because if that's the main issue then "your" side needs to learn how to communicate properly. Because right now all I see is the same old whining about "social justice warriors" and "feminism ruins everything". If there are any legitimate points about the gaming media buried somewhere in that mess they aren't being presented very well.


I don't know about you but I find that kind of funny. I do support gamersgate, and I have lended my voice to it and, I have decried any harasser or anyone causing trouble.

Zoe Quinn I have stopped caring about. But she keeps bringing her head out and keeps trying to bring it back to her.

Please check the other thread for more information.

If she isn't targeted because she's a woman then why is she singled out for criticism while her male colleagues are pretty much ignored? It's not like corruption in gaming journalism is anything new, we've known for years (or even decades!) that game reviews constantly give inflated scores to mediocre products, and the close relationship between the media and the businesses they report on ensures that it stays that way. The surprising thing here isn't that the reviewers are corrupt, it's that there are still people in 2014 who are surprised by this fact.


That is not what is being raised.

What is being raised is that journalists are not disclosing their relationships. That certain organizations in the indie scene are giving awards to their own company and have finanicially invested money into. And they win more money from those who have submitted into the competition. There is this whole idea that indie scene has been getting away with things. That journalists are not writting what the customer wants. That the journalists are going in with an agenda. That they have been writing hype pieces.

And you are saying like this happening is a bad thing how is this bad?

This is the consumers standing up for themselves, and refused to be labeled things by the media.

Read the sources. And please refrain from commenting on this thread. Until you have been fully read on the situation. This situation is more complicated than you think, do not come on here without reading ALL associated sources.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/12 21:31:10


From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Peregrine wrote:
 Asherian Command wrote:
She is not being targeted because she is a woman, she is being targeted for what she has written and for the corruption she has created. By having personal relations and for donating to multiple developers and giving them good reviews due to their relations.


If she isn't targeted because she's a woman then why is she singled out for criticism while her male colleagues are pretty much ignored?


Like Phil Fish or the "journalists" getting fired?

She's getting targetted because she WANTS to get negative attention.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/12 21:26:00


   
Made in gb
Renegade Inquisitor de Marche






Elephant Graveyard

 Asherian Command wrote:
 purplefood wrote:
Oh please. The games journalism industry is already corrupt. She didn't spread it or start it.
The FYC thing was just atrocious frankly.
Phil Fish should learn no one cares what he thinks anymore/ever. The man has quit twice for pete's sake.


Wait how was it Atrocious? The FYC?

I mean they have a lot of good intentions. And have stayed pretty level headed through out this.


I mean its not like its been a secret that games journalism has not been corrupt. I don't think it ever has not been corrupt.

I've always assumed it to be corrupt, but now it is time to change that. To make journalism better. The consumers want it, and they shall have it.

No I mean what happened to the FYC. I agree, given what happened i'd expect them to be a bit more crazy about it but they've been (from what I can see) universally positive about what happened and the subsequent boost they got because of it.

Dakka Bingo! By Ouze
"You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry. 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

 purplefood wrote:
 Asherian Command wrote:
 purplefood wrote:
Oh please. The games journalism industry is already corrupt. She didn't spread it or start it.
The FYC thing was just atrocious frankly.
Phil Fish should learn no one cares what he thinks anymore/ever. The man has quit twice for pete's sake.


Wait how was it Atrocious? The FYC?

I mean they have a lot of good intentions. And have stayed pretty level headed through out this.


I mean its not like its been a secret that games journalism has not been corrupt. I don't think it ever has not been corrupt.

I've always assumed it to be corrupt, but now it is time to change that. To make journalism better. The consumers want it, and they shall have it.

No I mean what happened to the FYC. I agree, given what happened i'd expect them to be a bit more crazy about it but they've been (from what I can see) universally positive about what happened and the subsequent boost they got because of it.


Oh okay. I misread it XD.

From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el




So I have a hard time seeing gammergate as being about games journalism because of where is started. It didn't spring from one of the many reminders that gamers journalism is kind of just advertising for the big publishers. It started with a woman who had some sex.

If you really wanted to have a talk about how bad games journalism is, It would have been a smart idea to wait till latter. Then you would be able to do it without this really creepy shadow kind of marking the whole idea.
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

nomotog wrote:
So I have a hard time seeing gammergate as being about games journalism because of where is started. It didn't spring from one of the many reminders that gamers journalism is kind of just advertising for the big publishers. It started with a woman who had some sex.

If you really wanted to have a talk about how bad games journalism is, It would have been a smart idea to wait till latter. Then you would be able to do it without this really creepy shadow kind of marking the whole idea.


It sprung out because she had sex with a journalist. And this journalist was on an awards board that gave her game an award. So there was bias there and has put journalism integrity on the line. This question was raised. And was silenced at reddit that started the movement.

Gamergate was started by Adam Baldwin after the reddit mod deleted the 22,000 comments on the matter. And the reaction of the media decrying gamers as dead.

From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Asherian Command wrote:
What is being raised is that journalists are not disclosing their relationships.


Again, how is any of that new? This has been going on for years/decades, so why is it suddenly a major problem?

That journalists are not writting what the customer wants. That the journalists are going in with an agenda. That they have been writing hype pieces.


And they've been doing that for as long as there's been gaming journalism. Everybody knows that media reviews are absolutely worthless, and that "independent journalists" are just short of paid employees of the game industry. They haven't been providing what their customers want, and their customers have been voting with their wallets. And they've been content to just stop spending money on a product they aren't interested in, without turning this into some kind of pro-gamer crusade against the evils of the industry.

And you are saying like this happening is a bad thing how is this bad?


It's bad because I don't believe for one moment that this is legitimate outrage that would be happening (or at least happening to the same degree) if the people at the center of it were men. The corruption involved has been an ongoing problem for a very long time, and the response previously has simply been to stop wasting money on gaming magazines. But now suddenly it's time to take a stand, when the only thing that has changed is the gender of the people involved in the corruption?

This is the consumers standing up for themselves, and refused to be labeled things by the media.


Sorry, but the labels are accurate. The gaming community as a whole has major issues, and the various TFG stereotypes exist for very good reasons. The only "change" in the recent past is that people have started criticizing those elements publicly instead of just quietly ignoring it while large parts of the gaming community play the same games but constantly say "but I'm not that kind of gamer".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Asherian Command wrote:
It sprung out because she had sex with a journalist. And this journalist was on an awards board that gave her game an award. So there was bias there and has put journalism integrity on the line. This question was raised. And was silenced at reddit that started the movement.


Again, how is any of this new? How is this incident any different from every other incident of the industry buying awards and positive reviews that has happened over the past 10+ years? Ever since the internet became popular everyone in the gaming hobby has known perfectly well that "journalistic integrity" is a joke in the game media.

And the reaction of the media decrying gamers as dead.


Sorry if it's the uncomfortable truth, but gamers are dead, of self-inflicted wounds. The industry is quite happy to focus on the very profitable market of people who play Call of Battlefield 9 and Football 2014 on their console, but don't define themselves as gamers. Meanwhile there are plenty of people playing "serious" games that reject the "gamer" identity because they don't want to be associated with the TFG stereotypes. And every time the community turns into an angry mob screaming about "social justice warriors" they do a little more to ensure that they stay dead.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/12 22:02:42


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

 Peregrine wrote:
 Asherian Command wrote:
What is being raised is that journalists are not disclosing their relationships.


Again, how is any of that new? This has been going on for years/decades, so why is it suddenly a major problem?

That journalists are not writting what the customer wants. That the journalists are going in with an agenda. That they have been writing hype pieces.


And they've been doing that for as long as there's been gaming journalism. Everybody knows that media reviews are absolutely worthless, and that "independent journalists" are just short of paid employees of the game industry. They haven't been providing what their customers want, and their customers have been voting with their wallets. And they've been content to just stop spending money on a product they aren't interested in, without turning this into some kind of pro-gamer crusade against the evils of the industry.

And you are saying like this happening is a bad thing how is this bad?


It's bad because I don't believe for one moment that this is legitimate outrage that would be happening (or at least happening to the same degree) if the people at the center of it were men. The corruption involved has been an ongoing problem for a very long time, and the response previously has simply been to stop wasting money on gaming magazines. But now suddenly it's time to take a stand, when the only thing that has changed is the gender of the people involved in the corruption?

This is the consumers standing up for themselves, and refused to be labeled things by the media.


Sorry, but the labels are accurate. The gaming community as a whole has major issues, and the various TFG stereotypes exist for very good reasons. The only "change" in the recent past is that people have started criticizing those elements publicly instead of just quietly ignoring it while large parts of the gaming community play the same games but constantly say "but I'm not that kind of gamer".


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 Asherian Command wrote:
It sprung out because she had sex with a journalist. And this journalist was on an awards board that gave her game an award. So there was bias there and has put journalism integrity on the line. This question was raised. And was silenced at reddit that started the movement.


Again, how is any of this new? How is this incident any different from every other incident of the industry buying awards and positive reviews that has happened over the past 10+ years? Ever since the internet became popular everyone in the gaming hobby has known perfectly well that "journalistic integrity" is a joke in the game media.

And the reaction of the media decrying gamers as dead.


Sorry if it's the uncomfortable truth, but gamers are dead, of self-inflicted wounds. The industry is quite happy to focus on the very profitable market of people who play Call of Battlefield 9 and Football 2014 on their console, but don't define themselves as gamers. Meanwhile there are plenty of people playing "serious" games that reject the "gamer" identity because they don't want to be associated with the TFG stereotypes. And every time the community turns into an angry mob screaming about "social justice warriors" they do a little more to ensure that they stay dead.


You and I will probably tussle with this for years to come about this.

First this has not been happening in a decade. Because the internet has not been as promninent. There has not been as many hype pieces. The industry scene was non-existant a decade ago. There were very few indie games back in 2000.

Being involved in the industry I can tell as a designer we are kind of sick and tired of the hype pieces written by IGN, Polygon and Kotatku.

You keep saying blah blah this has been happening blah blah this has been happening.

To be honest it has not been happening as frequently. Look at how many hype pieces there are. How many games have been disappointing or down right ignored. Where some games are praised where others had done a better job.

This is a legitmate crusade. And you have voluntary ignored and nitpicked all to high hell my arguments. The main thing that is happening is the consumers are outraged that this Indie Developer has had so many dealings with the press, and they have decryed every gamer as dead.

You are completely wrong. They would wither and die if it was only call of duty. This is a banner for all gamers. REGARDLESS of what games you play and no matter what console.

You have approached this like. "Yeah right."

Yet you refuse to the see the consumer side.

Sorry, but the labels are accurate. The gaming community as a whole has major issues, and the various TFG stereotypes exist for very good reasons. The only "change" in the recent past is that people have started criticizing those elements publicly instead of just quietly ignoring it while large parts of the gaming community play the same games but constantly say "but I'm not that kind of gamer".


It has been changing. Let me ask who is the average video game player. Its the casual. Not the hardcore gamer. The person who sits down and plays candy crush and/or a web browser is a gamer.

You cannot say they are not part of the gaming community.

Sorry if it's the uncomfortable truth, but gamers are dead, of self-inflicted wounds. The industry is quite happy to focus on the very profitable market of people who play Call of Battlefield 9 and Football 2014 on their console, but don't define themselves as gamers. Meanwhile there are plenty of people playing "serious" games that reject the "gamer" identity because they don't want to be associated with the TFG stereotypes. And every time the community turns into an angry mob screaming about "social justice warriors" they do a little more to ensure that they stay dead.


Get out. This agrument has been debated to death. You have provided me no evidence to support the matter. All those articles. Called Gamers are dead are just falisities and wild fantasies in the perfect world without need of a consumer. With just that crowd. Gaming would cease to exist.

IT would be books without its readers.

What makes the gaming industry so great is its community. NOT its journalists, who have been a poison in the industry.

A true journalist seperates their work into two groups editorials or news. Editorials are opinion pieces. News is hard facts. They are not opinion pieces. That has not been happening in this industry. And is unique to our industry.

So get off your high horse. And get out of this thread for your argument has no place in this thread with baseless attacks on gamers, and decrying gamers as dead is as pig headed and wrong as humanly possible.

This is criticism not harassment.

Your argument is completely flawed.

This is a reaction again to journalism losing its intergrity and to falling into the standards of a teenager. Where it only can insult and defend itself like an injured angry child. This is its tantrum.

Where Zoe quinn only tries to bring attention to herself. Stop saying this is about her. It isn't.

That is only the journalists saying it is. It has never been about her. it is about her relationship with a journalist. And always has been.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/12 22:26:23


From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
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 Asherian Command wrote:
nomotog wrote:
So I have a hard time seeing gammergate as being about games journalism because of where is started. It didn't spring from one of the many reminders that gamers journalism is kind of just advertising for the big publishers. It started with a woman who had some sex.

If you really wanted to have a talk about how bad games journalism is, It would have been a smart idea to wait till latter. Then you would be able to do it without this really creepy shadow kind of marking the whole idea.


It sprung out because she had sex with a journalist. And this journalist was on an awards board that gave her game an award. So there was bias there and has put journalism integrity on the line. This question was raised. And was silenced at reddit that started the movement.

Gamergate was started by Adam Baldwin after the reddit mod deleted the 22,000 comments on the matter. And the reaction of the media decrying gamers as dead.


This could have been so much cleaner if happened as a result of a different scandal. Like anyone recall that Cain and lynch thing. Why couldn't gammer gate have happened after that. Timing is everything and is bad timing.

You know, in a truly journalistic games press, you would see a lot more stories about gamers being dead. What is that old saying. If it doesn't make someone angry it's just advertising. Something like that. That is kind of a thing that relates to the side of gammers gate I deal with most. I have had people talk to me as if gammergate is a way to like purge gammeing of the feminist and the arty game makers, but that sentiment kind of flies right in the face the other part. In a free press, you would see a lot more stuff like that not less.

It's like you have several forces all puling in counter directions and that actually makes a lot of sense giving it's from the internet.
   
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Chicago, Illinois

nomotog wrote:
 Asherian Command wrote:
nomotog wrote:
So I have a hard time seeing gammergate as being about games journalism because of where is started. It didn't spring from one of the many reminders that gamers journalism is kind of just advertising for the big publishers. It started with a woman who had some sex.

If you really wanted to have a talk about how bad games journalism is, It would have been a smart idea to wait till latter. Then you would be able to do it without this really creepy shadow kind of marking the whole idea.


It sprung out because she had sex with a journalist. And this journalist was on an awards board that gave her game an award. So there was bias there and has put journalism integrity on the line. This question was raised. And was silenced at reddit that started the movement.

Gamergate was started by Adam Baldwin after the reddit mod deleted the 22,000 comments on the matter. And the reaction of the media decrying gamers as dead.


This could have been so much cleaner if happened as a result of a different scandal. Like anyone recall that Cain and lynch thing. Why couldn't gammer gate have happened after that. Timing is everything and is bad timing.

You know, in a truly journalistic games press, you would see a lot more stories about gamers being dead. What is that old saying. If it doesn't make someone angry it's just advertising. Something like that. That is kind of a thing that relates to the side of gammers gate I deal with most. I have had people talk to me as if gammergate is a way to like purge gammeing of the feminist and the arty game makers, but that sentiment kind of flies right in the face the other part. In a free press, you would see a lot more stuff like that not less.

It's like you have several forces all puling in counter directions and that actually makes a lot of sense giving it's from the internet.


Art game makers. will always be apart of the industry. That is not why this is happening.

May I ask where have you been reading this?

And no you wouldn't those would be more editorals and not actual news.

Also am I the only standing up for gamers shesh.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/12 22:28:24


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 Asherian Command wrote:
First this has not been happening in a decade. Because the internet has not been as promninent. There has not been as many hype pieces. The industry scene was non-existant a decade ago. There were very few indie games back in 2000.


...

Yes, it has been happening for a decade. The internet certainly existed in 2004, and I can remember complaints about corruption and game publishers buying favorable reviews in all but name. Anyone who thinks media corruption is a new thing in the gaming industry is clearly just too young to remember anything from that far back.

Being involved in the industry I can tell as a designer we are kind of sick and tired of the hype pieces written by IGN, Polygon and Kotatku.


And back in 2000 you'd be sick of the hype pieces written by gaming magazines.

To be honest it has not been happening as frequently. Look at how many hype pieces there are. How many games have been disappointing or down right ignored. Where some games are praised where others had done a better job.


I am looking at it, and I see the exact same things that have been happening for the entire time I've been playing games. Major new releases get positive reviews no matter how mediocre (or even broken) they are. Problems are barely mentioned, and the review is full of pretty pictures and talk about how awesome its good parts are. And just like when I first started playing games I ignore the shiny pictures and constant 95+/100 scores for every new release and either pirate a copy to test it or make my decision based on what my friends and online communities have to say about it.

The main thing that is happening is the consumers are outraged that this Indie Developer has had so many dealings with the press, and they have decryed every gamer as dead.


And the point you keep ignoring is that this is not new. If you had told me back in 2010 that a developer would be caught having sex with a reviewer in exchange for positive reviews I would have shrugged and said "yep, that's how it works".

They would wither and die if it was only call of duty.


The sales numbers say otherwise. The real situation here is that the ability to milk the CoD/sports cash cow every year is what allows game developers to even consider taking risks on anything new. Take away all the other games and profits would go down, but the cash cow would still be profitable.

It has been changing. Let me ask who is the average video game player. Its the casual. Not the hardcore gamer. The person who sits down and plays candy crush and/or a web browser is a gamer.

You cannot say they are not part of the gaming community.


Yes, and that's exactly the point being made by "gamers are dead". The stereotypical hardcore self-identified gamer is becoming less and less relevant, and is being replaced by people who play games but don't make them their identity.

Get out.


No.

This agrument has been debated to death. You have provided me no evidence to support the matter.


I don't need to, the "gamer" community speaks for itself. Even if you ignore the latest embarrassing displays of misogyny the stereotype is pretty obvious. How many times have you encountered the FPS player who spends the entire match screaming racist and/or homophobic insults at everyone? How many times have you seen anecdotes from 40k players about how they had to convince their wives/girlfriends that they're not like all the TFGs at the local GW store? Saying "I play games, but I'm not one of those people" is a cliche at this point.

A true journalist seperates their work into two groups editorials or news. Editorials are opinion pieces. News is hard facts. They are not opinion pieces. That has not been happening in this industry. And is unique to our industry.


Yes, and you're missing the point here. I'm not defending gaming journalism in any way. It's obviously corrupt, it has been for a long time, and few people would shed any tears if it all went bankrupt and disappeared. But it's simply ridiculous to act like this is some new revelation that should inspire a crusade against the evils of the industry. The gaming community has spent plenty of years being mostly apathetic and voting with their wallets, the only thing that has changed here is the gender of the person responsible for the specific incident of corruption. And that's why it's a problem.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
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Chicago, Illinois

 Peregrine wrote:

A true journalist seperates their work into two groups editorials or news. Editorials are opinion pieces. News is hard facts. They are not opinion pieces. That has not been happening in this industry. And is unique to our industry.


Yes, and you're missing the point here. I'm not defending gaming journalism in any way. It's obviously corrupt, it has been for a long time, and few people would shed any tears if it all went bankrupt and disappeared. But it's simply ridiculous to act like this is some new revelation that should inspire a crusade against the evils of the industry. The gaming community has spent plenty of years being mostly apathetic and voting with their wallets, the only thing that has changed here is the gender of the person responsible for the specific incident of corruption. And that's why it's a problem.


Can I just say. I don't care what gender Zoey quinn is. She could of been a dude and this still would of happened.

And you know what people are doing good deeds. And you aren't helping the case.


First your argument crumbles when I said there has been more and more hype pieces. I've said that twice thus far in this thread.

Hype pieces have begun more and more apart of gaming. Instead of journalism

You keep saying its nothing new. But not at this scale. Not at this monumentus scale. Where the journalists have gotten to the point where its a pretty big issue and is beyond what it was before.

They hold power and it is time for the gamers to take it back.

This gamers are dead speech you are throwing out is ridicilious.

Hardcore gamers yes they are leaving the scene as the dominant form. They are being replaced by casual players. And thats good. But they still identify as gamers.

The gaming community is huge. If you attack gaming you are attacking every gamer.

Also on call of duty.

Call of duty sales have been falling. The game is getting less and less popular. Currently there is a shift in gaming, and you fail to see it.

The money makers right now are free to play games. Which have made more money than call of duty has.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/12 23:00:14


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 Sigvatr wrote:
Perfectly fits to Zoe Quinn.

I don't think that it fully applies to Sarkeesian, however, as she was mainly interested in cash and then pretty much went under the radar after the first impact, being rather quiet about most issues.


Just out of curiousity, where do people find out about everyone's motivations from?

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Chicago, Illinois

 Ashiraya wrote:
 Sigvatr wrote:
Perfectly fits to Zoe Quinn.

I don't think that it fully applies to Sarkeesian, however, as she was mainly interested in cash and then pretty much went under the radar after the first impact, being rather quiet about most issues.


Just out of curiousity, where do people find out about everyone's motivations from?


Read her twitter. You can see it is kind of funny really

From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
 
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