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 Mechanical Crow wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Mechanical Crow wrote:
More so Erik Kains article mentions Jim Stirlings view on journalists. Its a complete jerk that is in a circle.

But should we really focus on that?

I mean he said where he got his sources.

And that is a step in the right direction.

True, the transparency is nice, but its still Sideways.

Agreed. But I think the matter is that in order to get anything done baby steps are required.

Is the problem with journalism or with women?

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Is the problem with journalism or with women?

It should be about Journalism.

I do not think women are at all the problem. I mean I support many of my colleagues who are designers.

I think we should condemn harassment from either side.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Is the problem with journalism or with women?

Journalism

They'll go after the god of war guy, or max tempken on allegations, but when it comes to anything involving them doing shady stuff they stay far far away, or just down play it. Being gamer journalists and claiming gamers are dead, and constantly making tweets insulting them is the point we are getting at.

Its the ties of SJWs and Feminists with the journalists and how they often border into unprofessional.

For example. Matti Lesham ran a game jam last year that was admittedly (recently) nuked by Zoe Quinn and he was fired for that, She then took over for that game jam and has done nothing with it since march. In the meanwhile she and Maya Kramer attacked and shut down the fine young capitalists game jam and admitted to that all over twitter in feb. Matti lesham is thrown out of the industry and dozens of articles are written. Zoe admits to ruining game jams and nothing, we are told there is no story. Mostly because the journalists are funding her via patreon.

Then there is the events of DongleGate where a guy made a dick joke and got fired for being unprofessional, yet these people have been indicated in actual fraud, and again, nothing.

Max Tempken gets rape allegations and they run stories, Zoe Quinn admits to raping someone and again, nothing.

When called out on it there is mass censorship, there was over 22,000 deleted posts regarding Zoe Quinn on reddit and there is twitter evidence of a senior Mod on reddit talking to Zoe Quinn while it was happening.

Its the nepotism, mass censorship, agenda pushing and incestuous relationships that have pointed out the mass corruption in gaming journalism.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Is the problem with journalism or with women?

Journalism is the problem, and women are the smokescreen the journos are using to deflect aggro away from themselves.

squidhills wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Is the problem with journalism or with women?

Journalism is the problem, and women are the smokescreen the journos are using to deflect aggro away from themselves.

Basically ^.^ Misogyny is currently the cloak they are throwing over the entire issue, and describing it as just people wanting to harass a poor poor woman.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e78JRIHRjC0&list=UUy1Ms_5qBTawC-k7PVjHXKQ


and then.....

http://time.com/3274247/video-game-culture-war/

Son of a ________ (HOOLGIANS)

Its really just a campaign against A-holes. I don't care what gender, race, or space frog you are, if you're pushing an agenda of thought restriction and art censorship and act like a dick about it, you're damn right I'm going to stand up against that.

There is a considerable amount of misogyny in the games industry and associated activities including fandom as well as the Internet generally. At least at the extremes.

Reading up the stuff makes it look to me a bit like some people are using the journalism crusade to attack the two women and thereby advance the misogynist agenda.

I mean look at the storm around these two linked cases. I don't recall anything like it before except for the Jane Austen bank note incident. Why has alleged bad games journalism become such a huge issue with two women involved, and never with men involved?

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There is a considerable amount of misogyny in the games industry and associated activities including fandom as well as the Internet generally. At least at the extremes.

Reading up the stuff makes it look to me a bit like some people are using the journalism crusade to attack the two women and thereby advance the misogynist agenda.

I mean look at the storm around these two linked cases. I don't recall anything like it before except for the Jane Austen bank note incident. Why has alleged bad games journalism become such a huge issue with two women involved, and never with men involved?

Its been brewing for a long time

The events in order would be....

Mass Effect 3

Doritio Gate

Zoe Quinn Scandal

It just so happened to be when zoe quinn's allegations happened.

It blew up because in those two events, gamers were put down. Three strikes and your out is basically the jist.

As both times there was a vocal minority and were swiftly put down.

Also good news everyone!

http://gamergateproposal.wordpress.com/

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Reading up the stuff makes it look to me a bit like some people are using the journalism crusade to attack the two women and thereby advance the misogynist agenda.

It's not. "Misogyny" is just the smoke screen a number of websites have used to deflect attention away, and the very idea that there is such a thing as a "misogynist agenda" is just laughable.

 Mechanical Crow wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Is the problem with journalism or with women?

Journalism
[…]
Its the ties of SJWs and Feminists with the journalists and how they often border into unprofessional.

.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Mechanical Crow wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Is the problem with journalism or with women?

Journalism
[…]
Its the ties of SJWs and Feminists with the journalists and how they often border into unprofessional.

.

Now, now. Let's keep this civil. Do you have a point to make other than posting an orkmoticon?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Mechanical Crow wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Is the problem with journalism or with women?

Journalism
[…]
Its the ties of SJWs and Feminists with the journalists and how they often border into unprofessional.

.

You need more of a point there.

Your argument is missing a few points. Sorry all points. The fact remains is there is a correlation. And it is bordering on unprofessional with silverstring media being thrown in the middle of this.

http://techraptor.net/2014/09/12/interview-daniel-vavra/

http://whatculture.com/gaming/10-lessons-the-gaming-industry-must-learn-from-gamergate.php/

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Reading up the stuff makes it look to me a bit like some people are using the journalism crusade to attack the two women and thereby advance the misogynist agenda.

It's not. "Misogyny" is just the smoke screen a number of websites have used to deflect attention away, and the very idea that there is such a thing as a "misogynist agenda" is just laughable.

How do you interpret the misogyny shown via the internet that is apparent in the games industry and in other walks of life as illustrated by the Jane Austen bank notes affair.

I mean there may not be a formally organised group of misogynists lurking in a secret base, plotting the overthrow of our female oppressors, but there clearly is a lot of misogyny.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Mechanical Crow wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Is the problem with journalism or with women?

Journalism
[…]
Its the ties of SJWs and Feminists with the journalists and how they often border into unprofessional.

.

Typical. Ignore the part where its about fighting corruption and A-holes and focus in on the one thing that fits your agenda.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There is a considerable amount of misogyny in the games industry and associated activities including fandom as well as the Internet generally. At least at the extremes.

There is a considerable amount of misogyny on the extremes of every occupation in human society, since games are just another form of cultural expression it is inevitable that the misogyny that exists in our society will also be represented in the games that are made.

Having said that, there is a considerable difference between your statement and the original articles that stated that all gamers were inherently misogynistic.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Reading up the stuff makes it look to me a bit like some people are using the journalism crusade to attack the two women and thereby advance the misogynist agenda.

I mean look at the storm around these two linked cases. I don't recall anything like it before except for the Jane Austen bank note incident. Why has alleged bad games journalism become such a huge issue with two women involved, and never with men involved?

Yes, some donkey caves have attacked the women themselves and the gaming press used those attacks as an excuse to paint all gamers as misogynistic and use that as a smoke screen to try and divert attention away from the real issue.

Also that, IMO, is why this case as blown up as much as it did, because the gaming media tried to censor and divert attention away from the true discussion.

But at least all of this publicity caused a number of true feminist gamer causes to receive more funding that they probably wouldn't have gotten otherwise, so some good has come out of it.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Reading up the stuff makes it look to me a bit like some people are using the journalism crusade to attack the two women and thereby advance the misogynist agenda.

It's not. "Misogyny" is just the smoke screen a number of websites have used to deflect attention away, and the very idea that there is such a thing as a "misogynist agenda" is just laughable.

How do you interpret the misogyny shown via the internet that is apparent in the games industry and in other walks of life as illustrated by the Jane Austen bank notes affair.

I mean there may not be a formally organised group of misogynists lurking in a secret base, plotting the overthrow of our female oppressors, but there clearly is a lot of misogyny.

There is also loads of Misandry and double standards that is completely ignored. To these SJWs like Quinn, she uses Mens Rights Activist as a insult and slur.


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 Kilkrazy wrote:
There is a considerable amount of misogyny in the games industry and associated activities including fandom as well as the Internet generally. At least at the extremes.

Reading up the stuff makes it look to me a bit like some people are using the journalism crusade to attack the two women and thereby advance the misogynist agenda.

That's a new one.

There has been massive harassment on both sides. Look up the "In 4 words what do gamers mean to you" and find the journalist responses.

I will call out misogyny when it is warrented, same as calling out people that are using a thinly veiled College taught dogmatic hate group with some serious cognitive dissonance and projection issues.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

How do you interpret the misogyny shown via the internet that is apparent in the games industry and in other walks of life as illustrated by the Jane Austen bank notes affair.

I mean there may not be a formally organised group of misogynists lurking in a secret base, plotting the overthrow of our female oppressors, but there clearly is a lot of misogyny.

There is, but the use of the phrase "misogynist agenda" implicates a level of organization that simply doesn't exist.

Human civilization and especially western civilization has been inherently misogynistic for thousands of years, its getting better in the past few decades but its a bit naive to expect that the donkey caves that still hold those opinions will disappear in such a short time span. Especially when we still see misogyny being practised in such places as government and the workplace...

Most people with any sense treat 'MRA' as an insult and slur, not just SJW's and Quinn. The MRA movement is pretty much Storm Front except they hate women instead of non-Whites (and it's scary how much overlap you find between white power groups and the MRA movement).

There's a reason it's so easy to use misogyny as a shield in this case.

But here we go again, muddy the waters of people doing bad things and making it about misogyny because that fits the narrative.

Its not about misogyny FFS.

 LordofHats wrote:
Most people with any sense treat 'MRA' as an insult and slur, not just SJW's and Quinn. The MRA movement is pretty much Storm Front except they hate women instead of non-Whites (and it's scary how much overlap you find between white power groups and the MRA movement).

There's a reason it's so easy to use misogyny as a shield in this case.

But don't they have to prove those allegations?

Show that the majority are women haters? When that has been shown not to be the case? With notyourshield and many others?


The problem is that the journalists are just reacting and not observing.

 LordofHats wrote:
Most people with any sense treat 'MRA' as an insult and slur, not just SJW's and Quinn. The MRA movement is pretty much Storm Front except they hate women instead of non-Whites (and it's scare how much overlap you find between white power groups and the MRA movement).

There's a reason it's so easy to use misogyny as a shield in this case.

I never even heard of it until recently, when feminists stormed the halls of UofT in Toronto during the Canadian Association For Equality and they were holding a panel on the sexism men face. The thousands of feminists made it impossible for the presenters to speak, and even when they tried they pulled the fire alarm. That internet knows well the ring leader of that event as Big Red.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
Most people with any sense treat 'MRA' as an insult and slur, not just SJW's and Quinn. The MRA movement is pretty much Storm Front except they hate women instead of non-Whites (and it's scary how much overlap you find between white power groups and the MRA movement).

There's a reason it's so easy to use misogyny as a shield in this case.

But don't they have to prove those allegations?

Show that the majority are women haters? When that has been shown not to be the case? With notyourshield and many others?


The problem is that the journalists are just reacting and not observing.

Exactly, equality is a two way street, if you want people to listen and address the problems of one but not the other then that is a big problem.

 Mechanical Crow wrote:
Its not about misogyny FFS.

I think you have a good point here but that point is constantly undermined by (a) how and why any of these issues about charity blew up in the first place and (b) the misogynistic language some folks keep using to characterize the issues (perhaps including this "SJW" label).

 Manchu wrote:

 Mechanical Crow wrote:
Its not about misogyny FFS.

I think you have a good point here but that point is constantly undermined by (a) how and why any of these issues about charity blew up in the first place and (b) the misogynistic language some folks keep using to characterize the issues (perhaps including this "SJW" label).

I think its more of a making fun of the journalists who use misogynistic terms and insults that cater to gamers.

I mean Leigh Alexander released an article decrying gamers are dead, and started ranting about how bad gamers are.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2014/09/01/the-gamer-is-dead-long-live-the-gamer/

 Mechanical Crow wrote:
There is also loads of Misandry and double standards that is completely ignored. To these SJWs like Quinn, she uses Mens Rights Activist as a insult and slur.

The irony is strong with this one.

 Asherian Command wrote:


Show that the majority are women haters? When that has been shown not to be the case? With notyourshield and many others?

I'm talking about the Men's Right Movement, which is mostly a bunch of men whining about things that don't even exist in a pitiful attempt to claim women are the real power holders in society and men the oppressed masses. I've never seen an MRM advocate raise a valid point about anything.

The problem is that the journalists are just reacting and not observing.

So are the GamerGate and NotYourShield crowd. There have been plenty of questionable behaviors revealed since this started, social advocates and women being the least among them. It defeats the purpose of the movement to constantly harp on women and 'SJW' while claiming "we're not misogynists." This is the internet, not a college debate team. Words will be twisted so stop giving them words to twist.

I never even heard of it until recently, when feminists stormed the halls of UofT in Toronto during the Canadian Association For Equality and they were holding a panel on the sexism men face. The thousands of feminists made it impossible for the presenters to speak, and even when they tried they pulled the fire alarm. That internet knows well the ring leader of that event as Big Red.

When you advocate things like raping your wife isn't rape and beating her is perfectly okay because she's your wife, you can probably expect that feminists are gonna be pretty PO'd at you.

 Mechanical Crow wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
Most people with any sense treat 'MRA' as an insult and slur, not just SJW's and Quinn. The MRA movement is pretty much Storm Front except they hate women instead of non-Whites (and it's scare how much overlap you find between white power groups and the MRA movement).

There's a reason it's so easy to use misogyny as a shield in this case.

I never even heard of it until recently, when feminists stormed the halls of UofT in Toronto during the Canadian Association For Equality and they were holding a panel on the sexism men face. The thousands of feminists made it impossible for the presenters to speak, and even when they tried they pulled the fire alarm. That internet knows well the ring leader of that event as Big Red.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
Most people with any sense treat 'MRA' as an insult and slur, not just SJW's and Quinn. The MRA movement is pretty much Storm Front except they hate women instead of non-Whites (and it's scary how much overlap you find between white power groups and the MRA movement).

There's a reason it's so easy to use misogyny as a shield in this case.

But don't they have to prove those allegations?

Show that the majority are women haters? When that has been shown not to be the case? With notyourshield and many others?


The problem is that the journalists are just reacting and not observing.

Exactly, equality is a two way street, if you want people to listen and address the problems of one but not the other then that is a big problem.

Trust me. I'm a feminist. I agree with full equality between men and women. I am able to look past the smokescreen here and see the real issue is the lack of integrity and objectivity on the part of game journos (not to mention wider corruption and backscratching between journos and some developers) and not misogyny. I belive that some misogynistic jerk weasels have, in fact, attacked Anita and Zoe because they are women, but I fully believe that the majority of gamers are not those gakholes. All that being said, MRA *is* a slur and an insult and justifiably so. So-called MRAs are misogynists claiming "sexism against men" the same way the Klan cried "reverse racism" in the 80s in an effort to get Affirmative Action repealed. They are all, horrible, horrible people. I have not met one or heard of one who wasn't an unabashedly and unashamed misongynist.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Mechanical Crow wrote:
Its not about misogyny FFS.

I think you have a good point here but that point is constantly undermined by (a) how and why any of these issues about charity blew up in the first place and (b) the misogynistic language some folks keep using to characterize the issues (perhaps including this "SJW" label).

I think its more of a making fun of the journalists who use misogynistic terms and insults that cater to gamers.

I mean Leigh Alexander released an article decrying gamers are dead, and started ranting about how bad gamers are.

Meanwhile her Demographic is gamers.

And what else do we call them? The intellectually dishonest? Victims of cognitive dissonance?

 Mechanical Crow wrote:
Ignore the part where its about fighting corruption and A-holes and focus in on the one thing that fits your agenda.

You are doing a very good job at helping me, then.
Basically saying the problem is about “SJW” is one hell of a good way to make your argument about sexism in video games and video game communities rather than about corruption.

 LordofHats wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:


Show that the majority are women haters? When that has been shown not to be the case? With notyourshield and many others?

I'm talking about the Men's Right Movement, which is mostly a bunch of men whining about things that don't even exist in a pitiful attempt to claim women are the real power holders in society and men the oppressed masses. I've never seen an MRM advocate raise a valid point about anything.

The problem is that the journalists are just reacting and not observing.

So are the GamerGate and NotYourShield crowd. There have been plenty of questionable behaviors revealed since this started, social advocates and women being the least among them. It defeats the purpose of the movement to constantly harp on women and 'SJW' while claiming "we're not misogynists." This is the internet, not a college debate team. Words will be twisted so stop giving them words to twist.

The problem with that thinking is that there have been many reasonable folks who have watched and have joined in.

The consumer is not obligated to do so. They can simply react.

A journalist cannot do this, that is a breach of journalism integrity and ethics.

That is the big different. Those whose job it is to report on news are given the burden of observing and reporting facts.

Otherwise they must label their news as Editorials and not News. There is a very big difference between the two.