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Does anyone else seem to have tons of trouble with imperial knights. I agreed to a game yesterday but had no idea what he was bringing. Pulled out a Knight along with a few dreads and stuff. Needless to say my orks had pretty much no answer to knight as they always strike last with PK's, so they die before even getting to hit. Even my necrons really usually have a pretty hard time with them. armor 13 and a 3+ invon.... plus the guy had tech marines following it around...

Does anyone else have trouble with Imperial Knights...

Nope. With wave serpents and IK being a good part of the meta now, I've switched to drop pod melta with drop pod tig/cents support. They make short work of imperial knights and basically anything else with either high toughness or AV.

Yeah it's a pretty common issue lately. The game has changed in a number of ways that a lot of people dislike. Knights basically invalidate half or more of your army, especially if that's all they field. You run into games where you risk not having fun and just lopsided gameplay.

That said, this is my expectation and what I've heard other people say they felt after playing them - I stopped playing due to things like that. I don't doubt that you can have good games with knights, but it should involve fights with armies that have been modified to deal with them.

ISnt this why TAC lists exist?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
ISnt this why TAC lists exist?

TAC lists by definition have substantial portions of their armies devoted to anti-horde, anti flyer, anti-psyker and so on. To face 100% hard to kill super heavy walkers negates all that other stuff, leaving you with the small portion of your army that can do much. In theory.

Disclaimer: Haven't played with or against them.

Not sure what happened in 6th that caused people to stop planning to face a Land Raider or two in every game, but the exact same equipment needed to deal with high AV, high Toughness units can still deal with high AV, high Toughness in 7th. If you are not planning to face 1-2 Knights in every game, how do you expect to fair against a tank-spam list? Or a WraithKnight/Lord/Guard list? Or Tau? Or Necrons? How are Inperial Knights even remotely harder to deal with than Marine Centurian spam?

All you need to do to defeat Knights is to plan on facing more than one in every game and take the units that can bust tanks in number so you can get shots on multiple facings during the same shooting phase. And that is it. If you can plan for that, you can reasonable kill any of the supposed Uber-units currently in the game. If you don't plan for that, then its on you.

SJ

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
ISnt this why TAC lists exist?

Tell that to Tyranids.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
ISnt this why TAC lists exist?

Tell that to Tyranids.

Couldnt FMC circus wreck a knights day? The ones with the haywire shots? Crones?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Not sure what happened in 6th that caused people to stop planning to face a Land Raider or two in every game

A Land Raider or 2 is significantly less armour than an entire army of IK, it also could be taken out in CC by monstrous creatures and IMO LR don't have enough firepower for their points cost and so weren't as big of a threat. They also couldn't score objectives.

I don't think IK armies are terribly overpowered, but I do think they further mess up the already pathetic balance of 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
ISnt this why TAC lists exist?

Tell that to Tyranids.

Couldnt FMC circus wreck a knights day? The ones with the haywire shots? Crones?

If you took heaps of them and you got lucky. I can't remember the maths off the top of my head, but we calculated it out in a thread a while back and for their points Crones don't do enough damage to really hurt IK, but because they fly they can be a nuisance to them.

EDIT: Yeah, the haywire missiles, you only have 4 of them, so that's on average less than 2HP of damage over 2 shooting phases assuming you fire at a side that doesn't have the shield up and less than 1HP on a side which does have it up. Now that Vector Strike has been nerfed it's also unlikely to do any damage from that either (even before it was nerfed you were unlikely to do much). And the Crone is a 155pt model, so 155pts for the sake of doing MAYBE 1 or 2 HP isn't really worth it.

A Warboss should still be able to scrap a Knight fairly reliably. Especially if he's got a Nob helping too.

Knights also hate any mobile Melta or high volume shooting.

With shooting, the key is lots of shots and/or flanking the knight from multiple sides so only one gets the 4+(or 3+ for the Seneschal)

If you get the charge off, they're not that scary in melee. Mega Nobs will laugh off his Stomps unless he rolls a 6 and at best he'll paste 2 a turn with his melee attacks. Then a punch of PKs will ruin his day. They only have 6 hull points and Arm13.

Techmarines should have a difficult time keeping up with a model that moves 12" each turn unless he just sits there.

Full unit of Tank Bustas or 2 should take the IK out load them up in transports and drive at it fireing away. Then assault with your TankBusta Bombs ( which are Melta Bombs now) and he should depending on dice rolls go away.

You'll probably lose the Tank Bustas to stomps at the same time, but mutual annihilation is in your favor.

I face knights with my Orks frequently, and find them not terribly difficult to defeat. I have an opponent who likes to bring 4 knights (3 of them in that special adamantine lance formation) at 1500 points.
Here are some things which work well for me.

-tankbustas. No surprise here. Melta bombs + tank hunters. I like at least 3 mobs of 9 - 12 in trukks. These will be targeted for termination by a savvy opponent, but that's ok, because you also bring...

- trukk boyz. As many as you can. Nob w/ klaw (+ Mek w/ killsaw in two squads.)

-war bosses w/power klaws in two of the trukks, (preferably the trukks which lack killsaw meks.)

Strategy is orkishly simple. Rush at least 9 trukks at him full speed. Every trukk contains a unit capable of wasting a knight. The dreads will die even more easily.

The trouble with knights is the big boom when they die. Therefore be careful about how many units are in proximity when that occurs.

I think too many people look at big scary things, panic, and think how am I going to kill it without taking losses(because thats how a lot of other things get killed in 40k)

When they really should be thinking, what can I sacrifice to take it out?

Agreed.

.

Why would make a TAC list unable to deal with 3 AV13 6HP walkers?

hotsauceman1 wrote:ISnt this why TAC lists exist?

The whole concept of TAC has really taken a beating since the start of 6th edition. How do you build an 1850 point list that can deal with;

4 Knight titans
150+ infantry
4+ Land Raiders
30+ 2+ save models.
5-10 Flyers
AV13 Wall necrons
AV14 wall imperial tank armies
rerollable 2+ invul save deathstar
40+ beasts
6+ flying monstrous creatures
Serpent spam/wraith knights
30+ bikes with special/heavy weapons
battlesuit spam
Demon Factory
etc etc.

The additions of flyers and super heavies, and some of the new toys in some of the codexes has created some extreme lists out there that require very specific tools to defeat.

Knight armies aren't unbeatable, but a TAC/well rounded list is going to have a crappy time, since every S7 or less shooting weapon is rendered entirely useless.

If its anything like Gargants in Warmahordes, it means any traditional TAC list is outdated.

My TAC lists in 40k usually has enough anti tank, but if I play against a Knight-heavy list, most of my list can't do anything. Not even slow them down. Land raiders are tanks, and thus even spammed have ways for most of my TAC lists to handle them. Knights are a whole different beast. And av13 sometimes 4+ 6hp superheavies are very hard to stop. A pen can't take down a weapon. An explodes won't take it out. You can't immobilize it and move out of the firing arc. You can't slow it down with terrain. It doesn't have any reason to only move 6". It can charge, and can fight back hard in melee.

If I face one, my tac lists should be able to handle it. A lot of the ways to tale one down involve piece trades, though, so if there is a second, I'm in trouble. A third, and why did most of my army even show up?

Gargants in Warmahordes was one of the reasons I left the game. I want more tactical options than list-roulette. There are a few tactical options when facing Knights, but for the most part they just ignore most tactics and still punch your face in.

They're basically Wave Serpents without the Serpents few weaknesses.

No trouble for me.
I got plenty of tanks to just unload into them until they die or bring in Vendettas and they can't do anything at all but run in circles.

Yeah people seem to think that, "Hey I can build a TAC list that can deal with Knights, why can't everyone else?"

My TAC SoB list can EASILY stomp a Knight into the ground, it isn't even funny how bad I can bust them up.

My TAC Tyranids will be likely rolled by a single Knight let along the rest of their army. The only way Tyranids can bust up a Knight is in CC...where the Knight has every advantage with its strength D weapon. Plus if you do get into a situation where you can threaten in in melee it can outrun the entire Tyranid army with its 12" movement. You would need on average 5 Crones to shoot enough Haywire at a Knight to kill it, those are horrible odds. You can get in with a couple of vector strikes but as discussed they aren't that great in 7th anymore so you will be relying on all 5 Crones.

TAC is a myth in 40k. Some armies can build a TAC list but some armies just can't do it. I fail to see how Orks can do it either because in an ideal world you CAN get the charge off with the Tank Busters but in reality the Knight player isn't going to have much of an issue popping their transport before they can even get close.

Just throw a squad on it or better yet let it charge you and do not attack it on your turn. They will have to cut though them and it will be tied up on their turn.

This game is largely an objective game. This is one of the major reasons I am glad for this as it means my TAC lists do NOT have to be capable of killing 200+ infantry, 5 FMC, a Deathstar, and 4 imperial knights. Instead I can concentrate on winning the game and minimize damage from what I cannot kill.

You would think my Necrons wouldn't have an issue against them, but honestly, I can't kill them in melee, and I have to rely on 6's and hope they fail enough saves. Even Necrons have trouble against lists made entirely of Knights.

1500 points.

you can take 4 knights with that much (4 paladins is exactly 1500 points)

well let's play list builder for a moment.

Imperial Guard 1500 point armor list:

HQ: Tank Commander
- LR BT
-LR BT
-LR BT


Troops:
Vetern Squad
Vetern Squad

Fast Attack
Sentinal Platoon
2 Armored Sentinals with Autocanons.

Heavy Support:

LR Platoon
-LR BT
LR BT
LR BT

LR- Platoon:
LR Eradicator
LR Eradicator
LR Eradicator


124578
I put this out to note that IKs hardly are some new thing, armor spam has long been a possiability you have to be perpared for when fighting some opponents

BrianDavion wrote:

(List Stuff)


124578
I put this out to note that IKs hardly are some new thing, armor spam has long been a possiability you have to be perpared for when fighting some opponents

I don't think that list is quite 124,578 points

Carnage43 wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:ISnt this why TAC lists exist?

The whole concept of TAC has really taken a beating since the start of 6th edition. How do you build an 1850 point list that can deal with;

4 Knight titans
150+ infantry
4+ Land Raiders
30+ 2+ save models.
5-10 Flyers
AV13 Wall necrons
AV14 wall imperial tank armies
rerollable 2+ invul save deathstar
40+ beasts
6+ flying monstrous creatures
Serpent spam/wraith knights
30+ bikes with special/heavy weapons
battlesuit spam
Demon Factory
etc etc.

Except really, you can eliminate half that list because it's redundant:

Armoured enemies: 4 Knight titans / 4+ Land Raiders / AV14 wall imperial tank armies / AV13 Wall necrons
Heavy Infantry: 30+ 2+ save models / rerollable 2+ invul save deathstar
Light Infantry: 150+ infantry / Daemon Factory
Airborne: 5-10 Flyers / 6+ flying monstrous creatures
Mechanised: Serpent spam/wraith knights
Cavalry: 30+ bikes with special/heavy weapons / 40+ beasts / battlesuit spam

Of course, a lot of the time, you can then narrow it down further by categorising them by "weapons needed to destroy":

High S / low AP: Armoured Enemies / Heavy Infantry / Mechanised
High RoF: Light Infantry / Cavalry
AA: Airborne.

Or, put another way:

Melta: Armoured / Heavy Infantry / Mechanised
Flamer: Light Infantry / Cavalry
AA gun: Airborne.

All of a sudden, the TAC list becomes a lot less of a daunting subject...

 Yonan wrote:
Yeah it's a pretty common issue lately. The game has changed in a number of ways that a lot of people dislike. Knights basically invalidate half or more of your army, especially if that's all they field. You run into games where you risk not having fun and just lopsided gameplay.

That said, this is my expectation and what I've heard other people say they felt after playing them - I stopped playing due to things like that. I don't doubt that you can have good games with knights, but it should involve fights with armies that have been modified to deal with them.

Very well said.

I did have a Chapter Master with Storm Shield and burning blade, who had Hammer Hand casted on him kill a knight by himself. Burning blade is STR +3, and +2 STR from hammer hand. I was hitting the knight at STR 9 initiative 5.

You want to make sure you charge it. My recommendation for orcs:

Have a warboss on a bike, give him the relic from the Waagh Ghaz supplement: Choppa of Ragnorok.

This is a big choppa that gets better each time you kill someone. IE, starts off at STR +2 AP5 and each time it kills a model, it gets +1 STR and drops AP by 1. Maxing out at STR 10 AP1.

My advice, this warboss starts away from the knight, ignore the knight.

Kill low level models with the warboss. Once you get your 4-5 kills head on over to mister meanie and charge him. You'll hit him at higher initiative I believe and if you have attack squig you get a reroll on a hit which is crucial.

It's very possible you can destroy the Kinight on one turn of combat.

Be advised, the knight will go boom and will boom very hard. Just pray his mega super blast explosion of tears scatters away from you instead of directly over like it did with my chapter master

Ehhh, what if you run into all knights?