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I'm a little confused about the changes to Mastery Levels in relation to the number of powers and WC they generate.

Imagine I have two psykers, a Lv1 and Lv3. Does their Mastery Level limit how many powers they can use per turn, and in addition does it also limit the number of Warp Charges they are allowed to use on said powers?

Eg: Is the Lv1 psyker allowed to use a power requiring 2WC, and is the Lv3 allowed to use 4WC points on a single power, just to name an example.

Thanks.

1. The number of powers a psyker can cast each turn is determined by their Mastery Level. What the relationship is, however, is unknown.

2. There is no longer a restriction on not being able to use powers with a higher Warp Charge cost than Mastery Level.

Yes to both... any psyker can put any number of warp charges into any level power he knows so long as a) you have warp charges remaining, and b) that unit has not cast that power already that turn.

An ML1 psyker can know up to 3 powers (1 generated, 1 focus, and Force if they have it). And could cast all three of those powers in a turn if you budget Warp Charges accordingly.

chanceafs wrote:


An ML1 psyker can know up to 3 powers (1 generated, 1 focus, and Force if they have it). And could cast all three of those powers in a turn if you budget Warp Charges accordingly.

That is an assumption because we are never told there is a relationship between ML and how many powers you can use, but never told the exact relationship.

coredump wrote:

chanceafs wrote:


An ML1 psyker can know up to 3 powers (1 generated, 1 focus, and Force if they have it). And could cast all three of those powers in a turn if you budget Warp Charges accordingly.

That is an assumption because we are never told there is a relationship between ML and how many powers you can use, but never told the exact relationship.

Because that relationship is described by the rest of the rules of the chapter, which are very clear on that subject.

chanceafs wrote:

coredump wrote:

chanceafs wrote:


An ML1 psyker can know up to 3 powers (1 generated, 1 focus, and Force if they have it). And could cast all three of those powers in a turn if you budget Warp Charges accordingly.

That is an assumption because we are never told there is a relationship between ML and how many powers you can use, but never told the exact relationship.

Because that relationship is described by the rest of the rules of the chapter, which are very clear on that subject.

The section "Resolving the Psychic Phase" gives an ordered list of steps to follow when generating and spending your warp charges. The steps explicitly list the requirements that must be met when selecting a psyker to manifest a power, and they do not mention Mastery Level as being a restriction, but they do mention having sufficient warp charges as being a restriction. I think the section in the very beginning of the Psychic Phase section saying that the powers that a psyker can manifest is related to their Mastery Level is meant as a general summary of the details that follow. If it was meant as a hard limit, they probably would have included it in the "Resolving the Psychic Phase" section which goes into the fine details.

That line is there because older books used to say how many powers a psyker could cast a turn. That basically says that is to be replaced with Mastery Level.


A psyker can cast as many powers as he has Warp Charges to cast with. A ML1 psyker will always know at least 2 powers(because of Psychic Focus)

To generate warp charges, as outlined on page 24, you add up the number of Mastery levels in your army and add D6 to that. Your opponent does the same with the same D6 roll. That is how many Warp Charges you generate(which can then be used by any psyker in your army.

I play GKs. My 1850 list has 2 terminator squads, 2 Dreadknights, a Lvl2 Grandmaster, and a Lvl3 Librarian. Add up master levels and you come up with 9. Then I roll a 5 on a D6. I have 14 Warp Charges to cast.

Then any of my psykers can cast of their powers with as many dice as they wish.

Mastery level and the Warp Charge requirement are not related. I can cast a power requiring 3 Warp charges using 7 Warp charge dice with a Lvl1 Psyker if I want. And given the difficulty of casting a WC3 powers I probably should use at least 6.

The only thing Mastery Level dictates is how many powers that psyker knows and how many warp charges he generates. It has no bearing when it comes time to cast the powers he knows.

In my example above, my Librarian could cast all 5 of the powers he will know(because I took all Sanctic powers and have the Liber Daemonica) and use all 14 of the Warp Charges I generated.

 Grey Templar wrote:
A ML1 psyker will always know at least 2 powers(because of Psychic Focus)

Just a nitpick here. That is not necessarily true. A Shadowseer, for example only knows Veil of Tears. Since the Shadowseer does not have any Discipline powers, it does not get Psychic Focus.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
A ML1 psyker will always know at least 2 powers(because of Psychic Focus)

Just a nitpick here. That is not necessarily true. A Shadowseer, for example only knows Veil of Tears. Since the Shadowseer does not have any Discipline powers, it does not get Psychic Focus.

Right.

Any Psyker who generates from a discipline will always know at least 2 powers.

Any psyker who uses disciplines and who has a force weapon will always know at least 3 by the same vein.

chanceafs wrote:

coredump wrote:

chanceafs wrote:


An ML1 psyker can know up to 3 powers (1 generated, 1 focus, and Force if they have it). And could cast all three of those powers in a turn if you budget Warp Charges accordingly.

That is an assumption because we are never told there is a relationship between ML and how many powers you can use, but never told the exact relationship.

Because that relationship is described by the rest of the rules of the chapter, which are very clear on that subject.

Okay, please provide he rule that describes the relationship between ML and how many powers you can use.... I have never found it, and never heard of anyone finding it.

The BRB states "The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use depends on his Mastery Level".

Using occam's razor the simplest determination is Psykers are limited to casting as many powers equal to their mastery level.

Using any other method requires leaps of logic, twisting the rule or ignoring it entirely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for expenditure of warp charges, you are permitted to use as many or as few as you like on any power, the only limitation is the actual total current amount of charges available.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Addendum: As to the general rules for manifesting powers stating you may continue to manifest powers as long as you have warp charges available. This does not pertain to the limit an individual psyker may cast. This rule is generalized for the army to continue manifesting powers and not a justification to manifest more powers than an individual psyker may attempt.

The problem Bausk is that Occams Razor is not applicable here. All we know is that the Powers a Psyker can cast (P) is dependent on Mastery Level (M)

That means all of the following are possible:

P=M
P=M+1
P=2M
P=(((M+7+1-)*(1000-8))/992)-17

In all cases P is dependent on M, however, as you can see the results will vary based on what P actually equals. The problem is GW didn't tell us the relationship between the two.

I believe the BrB has defined the relationship as being:

P >= ML

Read all the rules and this is the only certainly true relationship.

While all are possible Happy only one is directly dependent of the mastery level alone. RAW we are told that the amount is dependent on the mastery level, we are not told any additional information so it's safe to say that it is only dependent on the mastery level without adjustment.

 Bausk wrote:
While all are possible Happy only one is directly dependent of the mastery level alone. RAW we are told that the amount is dependent on the mastery level, we are not told any additional information so it's safe to say that it is only dependent on the mastery level without adjustment.

Nope it is not safe to say that at all. That is literally making up rules. It's like saying the Drop Pods say they have to blow their hatches thus you must blow your DP model up every time you use or you are cheating. See how I've taken a non-functioning rule and made my own rule up using some of the words from it? That is what you have done.

 Happyjew wrote:
The problem Bausk is that Occams Razor is not applicable here. All we know is that the Powers a Psyker can cast (P) is dependent on Mastery Level (M)

That means all of the following are possible:

P=M
P=M+1
P=2M
P=(((M+7+1-)*(1000-8))/992)-17

In all cases P is dependent on M, however, as you can see the results will vary based on what P actually equals. The problem is GW didn't tell us the relationship between the two.

This.
I don't even believe it is 'defined' as P>=ML....


All we know is there is a relationship, it is not safe to assume one interpretation over another. OTOH, you also can't say any particular interpretation is wrong...

YAY GW RULES!!

Well no Fling, that is nothing like it actually. Your example is taking a thematic explanation of the droppods doors having to open once it lands and turing it into the literal destruction of the drop pod.

What I'm doing is reading a rule at face value. The rule tells us that the psyker can use a number of powers and that number is dependent on the mastery level. No outside source beyond this is mentioned and no special formulas are required. We are looking for a number as our result and the only source mentioned is. a number.

Presuming this is altered in anyway by the rules for warp charges or manifesting powers is beyond ridiculous.

Bausk solve this maths equation:

X is dependent on Y

Y = 20

Except you still don't know what the relationship between X and Y is.

Is it a strict 1-1 ratio, or is it some other ratio?

A mastery level 1 can cast one spell, may cast a spell using any number of Warp Charge Available in the Warp Charge pool, and is not limited in casting spells equal to his level. So a Mastery Level 1 can cast a WC 3 spell.

A Mastery Level 3 can cast 3 spells , may cast a spell using any number of Warp Charge Available in the Warp Charge Pool, and is not limited in casting spells equal to his Mastery Level.

Hope this helps.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Except you still don't know what the relationship between X and Y is.

Is it a strict 1-1 ratio, or is it some other ratio?

Exactly the equation has no solution. Yet Bausk claims that in the rule you are expected to make up the equation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:
A mastery level 1 can cast one spell, may cast a spell using any number of Warp Charge Available in the Warp Charge pool, and is not limited in casting spells equal to his level. So a Mastery Level 1 can cast a WC 3 spell.

A Mastery Level 3 can cast 3 spells , may cast a spell using any number of Warp Charge Available in the Warp Charge Pool, and is not limited in casting spells equal to his Mastery Level.

Hope this helps.

It would if it wasn't entirely incorrect or intentionally misleading. A Mastery level 1 Psyker could manifest 3 (or even more) powers in a single turn.

With no additional information the answer is a 1:1

Y is a value (20) and X's value is solely dependent on Y's value so X is 20.

I do not have any developmental learning disabilities.

 Bausk wrote:
With no additional information the answer is a 1:1

Y is a value (20) and X's value is solely dependent on Y's value so X is 20.

Then you need to go back to school and learn basic maths. 20 is not the correct answer to that equation. Once you have done that then come back and either try to argue or accept your position was false.

Given it is not wholly a maths issue but also a contextual issue it's correct. Under the circumstances given the most basic value is correct. It is a simple and straight forward rule yet you needlessly add complexity that doesn't exist and infer a lack of education in others.

In this particular case the usage of 'Dependent' is in relation to the varible value of the psykers mastery level while being the sole source of value for how many powers may be manifested. Understanding the rule in context and not attempting to propose a superfluous mathematical problem are key.

It's not a math problem, it's a simple sentence.

This is something that badly needs an FAQ.

I suspect the intent was to limit psykers to only be able to cast as many powers as they have master levels, but the Rulebook never spells that out beyond "The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level" (which is not actually parsable as a conditional rule)

Well we can hope for a FAQ in one hand and pee in the other, but I think we all know what's going to happen. You're going to pee all over your hand if that was unclear.

Hollismason wrote:
A mastery level 1 can cast one spell, may cast a spell using any number of Warp Charge Available in the Warp Charge pool, and is not limited in casting spells equal to his level. So a Mastery Level 1 can cast a WC 3 spell.

A Mastery Level 3 can cast 3 spells , may cast a spell using any number of Warp Charge Available in the Warp Charge Pool, and is not limited in casting spells equal to his Mastery Level.

Hope this helps.

Not really. We know a level 3 can cast 3 powers.... but if he has 5, can he cast all 5? That is the question at hand, and there is no definitive answer.

 Bausk wrote:
With no additional information the answer is a 1:1
.

No, it isn't. WIth no additional information the question can not be answered.... There is not enough information to make the determination.

Given that we are not explicitly forbidden from manifesting more powers than you have mastery levels, we can assume that we can cast more if we know more.

The baseline assumption we must make is that a psyker can cast as many powers as he has warp charges to do so, with the additional restriction that you can't cast the same power with the same psyker more than once a phase.