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I am just wondering about the idea of using regular nobz with power klaws, and I feel like playing devil's advocate.

I know the conventional wisdom on this issue is that such a setup is not worth the points, and that the better option (if you bother with regular nobz at all) is to just take two or three klaws, but has anyone actually TRIED using a unit of regular nobz armed entirely with power klaws? If so, how did you get on?

I ask for the following reasons:

* Regular nobz can run and, more importantly, waaagh!, which bolsters their effectiveness as a missile unit.
* A 4+ save is still not bad. I know 2+ is better, but boltgun-resistant armour and two wounds is still pretty tough. And either unit should be in a transport for protection anyway.
* Regular nobz can sweeping advance.
* Although meganobz are more points efficient on paper, regular nobz can take a waaagh! banner for just 20 points to make them weapon skill 5. This should be taken into account when considering which unit is more points-efficient. Three regular nobz with 'eavy armour and a waaagh! banner cost just one point more than four meganobz, and according to mathhammer, each "missile" unit dishes out as much punishment against MEQs. The force multiplier of the waaagh! banner will surely only get better as you add more to the unit, right?
* Terminators are often considered the nobz' bogeymen because those powerfists can instakill. According to my calculations, either unit can wipe out a squad of terminators of equivalent points value if it gets the charge, and regular powerklaw nobz have a slight edge.
* If you are going to bother with regular nobz at all, you might as well tool them up. Their other weapon options are pretty underwhelming, especially against MEQs, and most of the time they are going to be striking last anyway. Boyz are way more points-efficient because of the sheer number of attacks they get. The real waste of points is using choppa nobz as mere ablative wounds for the two or three carrying klaws.

So is there an arguable case for all-power klaw nobz, or am I barking up the wrong tree? Are they at least a viable alternative to meganobz?

Comparison between Nobz and Meganobz is an apples to oranges comparison IMO.

For the most part, anything Nobz with several Klaws can do Meganobz should do better and also anything Nobz without klaws can do boyz will do better.

Anything Meganobz get into assault with shouldn't have to worry about being swept because they should eat it unless you picked something a hoard of boyz should have been attacking.

The point about being able to run is nice but I really think if I did the math the same points of boyz on a trukk would be more wounds to anything other than something silly like a rerollable 2+ Armor save with multiple wounds and FnP and those Boyz can also run and WAAAGH to.

I would think there is just too much AP3 in assault to consider 4+ Nobz versus a unit wearing a 2+ Armor save. One of the key point about meganobz is most stuff hits us first and MANz have the armor save to not outright die.

Only reason to really take Nobz IMO is for a DT battlewagon. There might be a case for them also if you wanted to make your footprint on the bored smaller say if you have issues with low Str Large Blast Templates in your meta. A spread out squad of nobz do have a natural defence against things like fire that Boyz don't have, and that's just by having fewer bodies. A case could be made that they would survive better but the efficency is quickly offset by the offensive capacity lost by going with smaller numbers of models in a more nob centered army. And when I say boyz in this example I almost don't mean troops choice boyz I mean things like kommandos or tankbustas that might eat a template out of a destroyed vehicle and die horribly, whereas a Nob unit might be able to stay. This very scenario is an exception though and there are too many available shooting oppurtunities in other armies for Nobz to just get doubled out to consider the efficiency you might get if say your enemy was running a metric ton of flame.

As far as pk's go, I'd say MANz win. I don't think nobz are worthless, but I think they need to specialize to be points efficient. One loadout I was tinkering around with was having 3-5 of them with big choppas in a trukk for some cheap AT. That many strength 7 attacks should be able to strip all the hp's off most vehicles.

The other loadout I was looking at was 3 nobz with big choppas on 1-3, mad dok, and MA boss with da lucky stikk. In that one they are there for ablative wounds, which is fine since mad dok and lukky stikk boss with rampage should be able to take pretty much everything out. You could argue that MANz would fit the role better, but having that many pk's with rampage is way overkill in most scenarios, and will make the unit more pricey as well as more of a target.

Those are the only ones I've found in theory to be worth taking, but I'm sure there are others.

Good posts, just a couple of points in response, for clarification more than anything:

* Afaik meganobz can also take a dt battlewagon, so I wouldn't take regular nobz just for that if I thought Meganobz would be better.
* I know that boyz cause more wounds than regular nobz without pks, for the points. That's exactly why I was wondering if, contrary to popular belief, it was worth loading them all up with pks.
* I know boyz can also waaagh, but nobz can waaagh and carry pks. That's the potential for a LOT of ws5, s9, ap2 attacks in your opponent's face very quickly. Even if you just take three in a trukk, that's still a lot more killing power than a trukk boy against meqs (bear in mind a trukk's max capacity).
* I converted my AoBR nobz to carry big choppas for the same reason as you, tadpole. But then I discovered the rule that cc hits against vehicles always count as being against rear armour, which is usually 10, unless they're walkers. Which means that boys win again because glancing the vehicle to death is better than making it explode with pens and taking damage. Which brings me back to my original point: maybe it is worth giving them all pks after all?
* If you just want ablative wounds, boyz are the better option.

 Krusha wrote:
Good posts, just a couple of points in response, for clarification more than anything:

* Afaik meganobz can also take a dt battlewagon, so I wouldn't take regular nobz just for that if I thought Meganobz would be better.
* I know that boyz cause more wounds than regular nobz without pks, for the points. That's exactly why I was wondering if, contrary to popular belief, it was worth loading them all up with pks.
* I know boyz can also waaagh, but nobz can waaagh and carry pks. That's the potential for a LOT of ws5, s9, ap2 attacks in your opponent's face very quickly. Even if you just take three in a trukk, that's still a lot more killing power than a trukk boy against meqs (bear in mind a trukk's max capacity).
* I converted my AoBR nobz to carry big choppas for the same reason as you, tadpole. But then I discovered the rule that cc hits against vehicles always count as being against rear armour, which is usually 10, unless they're walkers. Which means that boys win again because glancing the vehicle to death is better than making it explode with pens and taking damage. Which brings me back to my original point: maybe it is worth giving them all pks after all?
* If you just want ablative wounds, boyz are the better option.

If you're not hard-up for elite slots you can pay a 54 point "tax" to get a battlewagon transport that won't fill one of the heavily contested Heavy Support slots. I believe that's what he was saying, if you want more than 3 for whatever reason (I love my wagon boyz army).

By the same sword, you pay 120 min + the battlewagon for the same thing with MANZ. Though, in the case of the mega-nobz, you can pick up a truck in Fast Attack and turn them into a missle if you'd like. So it's just a possible scenario if you want lots of wagons basically.

I run 8 nobz w/ 2 klaws and one boss pole. They hide behind my 2 deffdreads. Thay always make combat and they always f&#% someone up.

Nobz are better vs gravgunz than meganobz...there was a decent combo before the update: 2-4 barebonez nobz, painboy, megaboss. That was a relatively cheap tanky unit that could wreck face to anything that's not too hard-hiting in mellee. But now without ability to take a painboy there's no need in such setup. You can just take regular boyz and DLS Megaboss.

Nobz are almost alwayz fighting less effective than MANZ or Boyz while costing roughly the same as manz and more than boyz. We can't change it unless something is added. Yep, nobz can have hidden claws compared to boyz but MANZ are better as klaws delivery due to 2+ armor. Besides, boyz can mitigate the challenge problem with meks.

So, killing is not their thing. What else do they have? They can unlock a wagon for 51 pt! So, if for some reason you want a shooty wagon that's not gona rush forward that's the way to go. For example, you play some ork gunline with lots of big gunz, lootas and shooty allies. And you want that 6-th ed wagon full of lootas or shootaboyz. Here you go, pay extra 51 for a unit that's gona sit on point behind blos all day and will wreck face to some scouts or deepstriking speeders. While you have a free shooty wagon. There are people who play orkses as a gunline, so that's an option for such lists.

 koooaei wrote:
Nobz are better vs gravgunz than meganobz...there was a decent combo before the update: 2-4 barebonez nobz, painboy, megaboss. That was a relatively cheap tanky unit that could wreck face to anything that's not too hard-hiting in mellee. But now without ability to take a painboy there's no need in such setup. You can just take regular boyz and DLS Megaboss.

Nobz are almost alwayz fighting less effective than MANZ or Boyz while costing roughly the same as manz and more than boyz. We can't change it unless something is added. Yep, nobz can have hidden claws compared to boyz but MANZ are better as klaws delivery due to 2+ armor. Besides, boyz can mitigate the challenge problem with meks.

So, killing is not their thing. What else do they have? They can unlock a wagon for 51 pt! So, if for some reason you want a shooty wagon that's not gona rush forward that's the way to go. For example, you play some ork gunline with lots of big gunz, lootas and shooty allies. And you want that 6-th ed wagon full of lootas or shootaboyz. Here you go, pay extra 51 for a unit that's gona sit on point behind blos all day and will wreck face to some scouts or deepstriking speeders. While you have a free shooty wagon. There are people who play orkses as a gunline, so that's an option for such lists.

So you would say that the 2+ armour save is a better power klaw delivery system than the ability to waaagh, in your experience?

EDIT: also lol @ gravguns...

 Krusha wrote:


So you would say that the 2+ armour save is a better power klaw delivery system than the ability to waaagh, in your experience?

EDIT: also lol @ gravguns...

Yep, i think that 2+ is more important than ability to run + charge in this case. Even if manz don't get there without this extra d6, they're still hard to remove without ap2 unlike regular nobz.

And yep, when gravgunz have been introduced in 6-th ed, nobz + megaboss combo won me games. The squad is cheap but has a 2+/5++/5+++ in front. While being 6+ for gravgunz. And with enough look out wounds to deal with plazma spam. Theese dayz are gone, sadly.

Sadly I don't see much use for our beloved Nobs these days except for the aforementioned cheap DT Battlewagon - great to free up a HS slot if you want a shooty wagon.

Being eligible to Waaagh is quite nice but now you can add a Boarding Plank for +2" charge range for MANz transports missing out on that extra D6" once per game isn't really a problem. Mega Nobz + transport are an amazingly cost-effective unit able to put hurt on almost anything (even DP's and TEQ in a pinch) and able to benefit from +1WS from the Lukky Stick with an attached Warboss for only 5 points more than a Waaagh! banner.

I mostly play MEQ armies but I do love the idea of using a Nobz squad with loads of Big Choppas and a Waaagh! banner against a more squishy enemy.

Regular choppas + sluggas are not worse vs squishy things than bigchoppas. Sometimes better due to +1 attack at s4/5.

There really is no comparison.

Nobz are far easier to kill since everything barring troop guns pen 4+ armor anyway and they actually cost MORE than manz do with a pk alone, not to mention the armor, banner, or "ablative wounds" you may add in.

After all of this I have actually decided to go the other way.

I already have my AOBR Nobz, so I will buy another box to bring the unit up to 10 with waaagh banner, bosspole, choppas and sluggas and stick them in a battlewagon to act as beefed up slugga boyz. 50 WS5, S5 attacks on the charge for just 245 points (185 if you decide not to bother with 'eavy armour) should batter even the infamous Assault Terminators. I may give them a KFF big mek with killsaw for protection, keeping the wagon moving and adding the S8/9 armourbane punch if it is really needed, or maybe just a painboy.

Massive boyz mobz may technically be more efficient, but they are also quite unwieldy compared to their bigger brothers.

Only one way to find out, I guess! Will be reporting back soon...

PS sorry if this is incoherent rambling - I have lots of ideas bouncing around here!

You obviously get Nobs for the twinlinked shooting and a DT BW. Then you also put the 10 Free booters in it as well, and give the spare BW from the freebootas to the lootas.

That gives you 2 BW 2 super shooty BW, and a free spot for the anti air, and anti tank big gunz.

BOOM now your nobs can get out and charge w/e is going to attack the BW's and the freebooters keep shooting. Lootas obviously keep shooting as well.

AOBR nobz make good IC's. They're significantly larger than box nobz. But it might look odd if you mix them.

Thats why any right proppa IC he needs to be outfitted to look epic.

Every warboss/mek i kitbash or plan to kitbash has something unique about them. For instance, my warboss utilizing the Supa Cybork is going to be a two-headed ork that is both cunning yet brutal and brutal yet cunning

Zomnivore wrote:
You obviously get Nobs for the twinlinked shooting and a DT BW. Then you also put the 10 Free booters in it as well, and give the spare BW from the freebootas to the lootas.

That gives you 2 BW 2 super shooty BW, and a free spot for the anti air, and anti tank big gunz.

BOOM now your nobs can get out and charge w/e is going to attack the BW's and the freebooters keep shooting. Lootas obviously keep shooting as well.

You can't put more than one squad in the same transport...

noooooo

Well nobz can overwatch and meganobz cant...not that it matters much lol.