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Someone pointing out that if you go by the rule book you are suppose to double strength first then apply any multipliers

I have always seen a Thunderwolf lord on a thunder wolf mount be strength 10 when using a thunder hammer or fist but by the actual rule book it should be strength 9.

however that can not be intended as a regular thunder wolf marine has strength 10 when he carries a hammer or fist!

Strict RAW they are 9.

It is glaringly apparent however that the wolf mount is supposed to confer +1 str to the profile permanently once you take it and thus make him str 10 however.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/609952.page

Str9.

Regular TWC have base Str5(added to base profile) while Wolf Lords would end up with Str4+1, with 4 being used for multiplication and the 1 added after.

Basically GW wants there to be two types of modifier a standard modifier and a baseline stat increase. It is glaringly obvious that this is supposed to be the later. However GW have neglected to create this type of modifier and explain which are which. For instance Crushing Blow on a Striking Scorpion Exarch is worded the same way hence the debate on whether he is intended to be S7 or S8. Unfortunately since 6th Ed GW habe stopped doing FAQs that clear this sort of thing up.

RAW he is S9 and many people will use willful ignorance of the rules to gain an unfair advantage (and don't even see that as cheating) so you're going to have to check with your opponent/TO for rulings every time you use him. Unfortunately that's just the world we live in.

Or you can go by the previous FAQ when the old book was worded exactly the same way, and made it str10. We had this same arguement then too and a ton of people ate crow.

Stay polite please, motyak

culsandar wrote:
Or you can go by the previous FAQ when the old book was worded exactly the same way, and made it str10. We had this same arguement then too and a ton of people ate crow.

Stay polite please, motyak

Using a previous faq to clear such stuff up is perfectly fine AS LONG as your opponent agrees to do so. My group discussed the case and decided based on the old faq to rule all TWC riders base strength 5. This is a houserule based on the assumption that GW doesnt learn from previous mistakes. Other people could not accept that reasoning and i would be fine with playing my TWC str4 base against them because in the end i dont care enough about that 1 point of strength to start an argument about it.

No, str is 10.

Read new codex.

In addition, a model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1 (these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear).

 Darog wrote:
No, str is 10.

Read new codex.

In addition, a model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1 (these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear).

I recommend reading this thread (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/609952.page) to see why this is a debatable standpoint.

 Darog wrote:
No, str is 10.

Read new codex.

In addition, a model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1 (these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear).

As above. However raw this is a modifier, and we know how modifiers are handled.

While this subject is up again:

How do people play the increase for Bikes and Jetbikes where not included in the profile? Because the answer should be the same.

(Rule book Bikes and Jetbikes section)

Bike and Jetbike riders benefit from an increase to their Toughness characteristic by 1. If
the Bike or Jetbike is part of the model’s standard wargear, this bonus is already included
on its profile

My problem; Rule book doesn't mention anywhere about modifiers to the profile which are not subject to the rules under modifiers.... although we know this concept exists in 40k.

Same way. If something gives a model that buys a bike x2 Toughness, it would be (2x(base Toughness))+1.

ive always played mount stat increases as permanent improvement of the profile.

The +1 toughness on a bike makes it so that you need str10 to cause instant death for example.

 Nem wrote:
While this subject is up again:

How do people play the increase for Bikes and Jetbikes where not included in the profile? Because the answer should be the same.

(Rule book Bikes and Jetbikes section)

Bike and Jetbike riders benefit from an increase to their Toughness characteristic by 1. If
the Bike or Jetbike is part of the model’s standard wargear, this bonus is already included
on its profile

Yes, if you had a rule which did something like double the Toughness of a model, then models with bikes by default would have their toughness doubled (e.g., T10 marine bikers), while models who bought the bike as an upgrade would have T*2+1 (e.g., T9 SM Bike Captain).

 Happyjew wrote:
Same way. If something gives a model that buys a bike x2 Toughness, it would be (2x(base Toughness))+1.

So S9 IDs bike commanders?

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Same way. If something gives a model that buys a bike x2 Toughness, it would be (2x(base Toughness))+1.

So S9 IDs bike commanders?

Why would it? Does ID say to use the unmodified Toughness?

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Same way. If something gives a model that buys a bike x2 Toughness, it would be (2x(base Toughness))+1.

So S9 IDs bike commanders?

Find where ID asks for unmodified toughness, like it did in 5th and 4th, and you'd have a point.

Who said I was using unmodified toughness? If double 4+1 = 9 (by multiple modifiers this is true) then S9 (but not 8 as would be the case for double unmodified toughness) woukd ID thunderwolves and bike riding marines. If the concept of a modified base stat truly does not exist I don't see how you could argue it any other way?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Who said I was using unmodified toughness? If double 4+1 = 9 (by multiple modifiers this is true) then S9 (but not 8 as would be the case for double unmodified toughness) woukd ID thunderwolves and bike riding marines. If the concept of a modified base stat truly does not exist I don't see how you could argue it any other way?

Why are you using multiple modifiers to determine the Toughness of a model with regards of ID?

ID is not a modifier, therefore, multiple modifiers does not apply.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Who said I was using unmodified toughness? If double 4+1 = 9 (by multiple modifiers this is true) then S9 (but not 8 as would be the case for double unmodified toughness) woukd ID thunderwolves and bike riding marines. If the concept of a modified base stat truly does not exist I don't see how you could argue it any other way?

Only in a bizarre world where ID was a modifier. You may need to explain your point a little more coherently, as currently it is a nonsense.

ID asks about double toughness, biker lord is t5, so you must be s10.

some peopel are, wrongly,

confusing a modifier,


with a stat increase.


the mount, just like bikes, gives the weilder +1 to various stats on tehir characteristics, before the game starts.

its not a modifier at all,

its the same as if you bought + 1 str or toughness for the profile directly, or if the model has it base.

 easysauce wrote:
some peopel are, wrongly,

confusing a modifier,


with a stat increase.


the mount, just like bikes, gives the weilder +1 to various stats on tehir characteristics, before the game starts.

its not a modifier at all,

its the same as if you bought + 1 str or toughness for the profile directly, or if the model has it base.

So +1 Strength is not a modifier?

no more then having your profile say "str 4" and claiming that your profile is a set modifier.

your PROFILE stats are not modifiers, they are what is modified,

TWC get + 1 to their profile for various stats, this is an increase to base stats, just as if you bought +1 str to the profile as option.



these profile stats, are what is modified, profile stats are not in themselves modifiers.


otther wise, hey, your str with a P fist is still 4 because your profile is a set modifier of 4.


you keep doingthe math wrong,

str = 5 on a guy on the TWC,

profile str = 5, then modifyers

its not 4(+1) the whole game, its just 5, as the stat has been increased, not modified.


if you want to contend that the profile= modifiers,

then your arguments is that a TWC with power fist strikes at str 4, as its profile would then be a set modifier.

There is no such thing as a stat increase, there are only modifiers. if you can find where in the rules for something that increases your profile stat that isn't a modifier in the BRB and explains how that works, or any codex, be my guest. Until then anything that increases/adds/subtracts/multiplies/sets is a modifier.

Regardless of that.

Instant death calls out you include the models modified stat.

so yeah a bike +1 toughness is a modifier.

TWC are all str 4 base, so their powerfists/t hammers are str8+1 but given most of them will have FC from somewhere they will probably be at str 10. Their profile may say 5, but from their wargear the 5 is 4+1.

if anyone can find these mythical rules for how you can permanently change a models profile that's not a modifier and follows the modifier rules, post it or concede.

 Happyjew wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
some peopel are, wrongly,

confusing a modifier,


with a stat increase.


the mount, just like bikes, gives the weilder +1 to various stats on tehir characteristics, before the game starts.

its not a modifier at all,

its the same as if you bought + 1 str or toughness for the profile directly, or if the model has it base.

So +1 Strength is not a modifier?

Or the +1T for a bike?

(Yes, startlingly obvious trap here)

its not a modifier to the stat,
its THE STAT.

period


you dont call str 4 a set modifier,

why are you calling str 5 (which is 100% raw what the profile says) str 4+1...

if you argue that the characteristic itself is a modifyer, have fun, as that means a profile of str 4 means you have a set modifier of 4.

So s4+1 isn't s4+1? The entry explicitly states +1, which is a modifier. Undeniable in actual rules.

no, your profile is str 5 with TWC, RAW 100%.


state raw that says your profile is a modifier.

nos your argument is invalid, stats are not modifiers, you could just say str 4 = str 1+1+1+1, and be just as incorrect.

we are told to edit the profile to make it str 5, period, that models str char is now 5, not 4+1.

You asserting that the profile = modifier is incorrect, as other wise we have a SET MODIFIER as our str is set at 4,

making a str 4 model with power fist have str 4 (x2) then set at 4.

which is what flows from your line of thinking.

you seem to be confusing the definition of the word "modifier" with the game concept of modifier.

with TWC, we add to the PROFILE, if this was a modifier, then their stats could NEVER change as all the profile stats would be set modifiers.

The profile of a TWC is listed as Str 5, but the TWC rules say that the modifier is already included in the stat line because the TWC mount is included within the wargear.

Space Wolves Codex wrote:
In addition, a model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1 (these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear).

The Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds get an increase of 1 and it is a bonus that is already included in the listed profile.

That means TWC are base Str 4 and because of the mount they gain a +1 to Str which is already listed.

So regular TWC are Str 9 with a power fist as well, it seems.

Sigh. Last try.

You are told to add 1. Adding one is, by definition in 40k, a modifier. Same as the additional toughness from a bike.

Your set value nonsense is being ignored, as a char isn't in itself a set value, as nothing has yet been modified. However, and this is factual and something you are just incorrect on, the +1 from twm IS a modifier. Because that's what the rules define it as.

As you do not have an actual riles argument to debate this point, please ensure you follow the tenets and mark your posts "hywpi"