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Makumba wrote:
Anyone who paid for a trip to a tournament or sign up at a tournament.

The point is that "competitive" 40k is a joke. The game is laughably bad in a competitive context: strategy is pretty much limited to seeing who can spend the most money on GW's most recent balance mistakes, random dice are more important than player decisions, etc. You can try obsessively to win as much as you can and call it a "tournament", but if you want real competition you need to find a better game.

Makumba wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Who plays 7th and can say that he plays the game "competitively" with a straight face?

Anyone who paid for a trip to a tournament or sign up at a tournament.

You are paying to play with other people from different areas in a tournament. 40k 7th is as far from being a "competitive" game as Yahtzee.

Does one have to sign up for it ? yes. Does one have to met a criteria to join? yes. do the winner get stuff. yes. It is is compatitive. Now if the game itself is bad is a totaly separate thing. It is bad, but it is also bad on a casual level too.

And the find other tournaments ain't easy, as other systems are hard to get here.

If I could play tournament infinity , I totaly would. If I could get my hand on a stormwall or play cygnar without it, I would play warmachine for tournaments alone.

If we go by the mere word "competitive", then every game of 40k is competitive, even when I play with a friend of mine while being totally drunk.

"Competitive" in this context means a competition of skills. And in a game, where win or loss is mostly decidided by the list you bring and the stuff you roll, "competitive" is a shallow term.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I wouldn't play 30K vs. 40K either. Mostly because the 30K army would be at an inherent disadvantage up until about 2500 points.

Actually a 1500-2000 does quite well as some of the 30k players I've seen, they just have issues with certain armies just as 40k ones do.

Any army can do well against any other army with good generalship, etc. That doesn't really change the fact that most of the units and abilities in 30K are overpriced for what they bring to the table. 150 points for a 10-man tactical squad that can't take any heavy or special weapons and lacks ATSKNF, 250 points for a 10-man assault squad with no upgrades, 225 points for a 10-man Breacher squad, etc.

Any army can do well against any other army with good generalship, etc

I think you mean luck. Becuase no skills is going to save you when your opponent has an army with superior rules.

Forgeworld is 100% accepted in my club. A lot of people run forgeworld units (not all the time). I think its a lot of fun playing against the awesome models and using them on my own.

Why would we ban ourselves out of an opportunity to field awesome models? I dont get it tbh.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
Lately I have noticed both on Dakkadakka and at some Gaming stores that people seem to really have a strong distaste for Forge World stuff. Any idea where that might come from?

People are afraid of things they don't understand. People are afraid of losing.

Throw FW into the mix - something most people don't know anything about - and you have every reason why people speak out against it.

This thread is actually about using 30k vs. 40k as that's what the OP was using, and that was the problem his opponent had. I can see how lots of people would have a problem playing against 30k (fluff reasons, lack of familiarity with units/weapons etc.) I would play 40k vs. 30k but would be very disappointed if they rocked up with HH books and 40k models. If you want to use them, buy the right models.

I actually quite like Forge World models being in a game. Adds some of the more interesting 40K tech (or 30K) into the pot like volkites, doomy doom lasers etc. Sure it hurts like hell when you're on the receiving end of it, and may reduce you to tears in some cases. But if you're a good sport (I appreciate not everyone is) you'll take it on the chin and come back for anuvva go!

Yeah reading this thread made me realize I should probably stop bringimgy FW stuff in. I already feel anxious enough going in to my FLGS and I feel like people are judging me in some way. Don't need FW stuff since they might actually judge me and it wouldn't just be paranoia.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Any army can do well against any other army with good generalship, etc. That doesn't really change the fact that most of the units and abilities in 30K are overpriced for what they bring to the table. 150 points for a 10-man tactical squad that can't take any heavy or special weapons and lacks ATSKNF, 250 points for a 10-man assault squad with no upgrades, 225 points for a 10-man Breacher squad, etc.

Typically it's mostly given that their heavy/elite support generally makes up for the more expensive troops, though typically the units will have special rules as a given due to legion ruless and typically aren't to be min-maxed and built at a higher squad (since the tac marines are 10 points apiece afterwords).

HH are simply a different list. I do not force a narrative upon other players. I love the list, I love that the rules actually reflects the fluff of my Night Lords and not the generic crap in the codexinobots. I am the only person in my group that plays a 30k army so I am forced to play against 40k armies. It is not two different games, its just a different list. The only real huge benefit of 30k lists are that there is no one way to play. I have enough to play 8k and some change, without allies, so my options are fairly unlimited when it comes to army lists so I can feasibly play a different list every time, which aside from my normal DA opponent and a chaos guy, most of the other guys in the group are really limited on the force structure they play. That is not a hit on FW though, every player out there can suffer that no matter which faction they play. Aside from Deathwing, its very easy to get outnumbered and out gunned as a Legion player. I would love to play against an elder player, I see major issues for a 30k list against the normal Serpent list or even a guardian heavy list.

 Sigvatr wrote:
In the past, FW was most well-known for releasing overpowered units. Which wasn't true, actually, as most of their releases are underpowered, but some examples were ridiculously over the top (e.g. Thudd) and those stood out.

To be fair, the Thudd Gun was simply a re-release of a unit that existed in RT and 2nd edition, and nobody considered it "ridiculously over the top" when it was re-released in 4E through 5E until 6E changed the core artillery rules, and even then only really when the army was built heavily around spamming them and supporting them with allies and lots of HQ support, and nobody talks about it anymore in 7E.

Then GW does what is usually does, and comes out with an even better version in the codex, in the form of the Wyvern, that did largely the same thing but better and without the need for all those support units (reducing S from 5 to 4 but giving it inherent Twin Linked, Rerolling failed wounds, and Ignores Cover, along with mobility and no need to worry about Morale)

Because wargaming is played by man children who have a teary about everything.

It can be so annoying at times

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
Yeah reading this thread made me realize I should probably stop bringimgy FW stuff in. I already feel anxious enough going in to my FLGS and I feel like people are judging me in some way. Don't need FW stuff since they might actually judge me and it wouldn't just be paranoia.

First off don't be paranoid at all.

Your opponent was an arse.

My advice is don't play agsint him/her, if he asks why, just tell him the issues you have with him/her then say he/she was just plainly unsportmanlike then just say that you don't have to put up with said opponent.

If your opponent talks again just shurg your shoulders and say your unsympathetic to whatever he/she has to say.

You paid money for that FW. Play aginst other opponents with it, if people judge then just show them the rules and get 'em educated

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
This thread is actually about using 30k vs. 40k as that's what the OP was using, and that was the problem his opponent had. I can see how lots of people would have a problem playing against 30k (fluff reasons, lack of familiarity with units/weapons etc.) I would play 40k vs. 30k but would be very disappointed if they rocked up with HH books and 40k models. If you want to use them, buy the right models.

fluff reasons for not playing against the legions? tell yourself they dissapeared into the warp and have just shown back up etc. aand thats all the fluff you need.

people who hate fw have a few reasons usually. but the biggest is simply fear of the unknown, which becomes no excuse because how do they know about say Gk day 1 of codex coming out.. look at the rules.
people in the past have as said before as well cheated with FW... use something for a proxy then cheat the rules, that leaves people sour.

but really if you have the rules their, then it shouldnt be a problem.

and a 30k list isnt so fearsome.

also actually, with the quoted. Use the right models?
im sorry i thought a marine was a marine? do you know the difference between a kitbash and a FW one? the power armor variants make stuff all difference in looks and a bolter is a bolter... its wysiwyg all the way.

There is nothing recent about certain subsets of players having distaste for FW units. For.... oh, hell, *years* now, there's been a vibe in some clubs and playgroups that FW units are, one and all, OP, badly-balanced and broken as hell.

This, of course, is not true, but all it took was one or two units to be OTT a decade ago to somewhat poison the well for all FW stuff from then on. Then, of course, new people get into the game, meet older players who don't like FW (for whatever reason) and all they hear is that FW stuff is broken, and so they adopt that same stance, not knowing any better.

Of course, if you set down a 30K list against a 40K list without telling the opponent first, that's kind of a dick move, as even the rules state that 30K stuff is not really meant to be played in a 40K setting.

Yeah, I'm a big fan of FW and think a lot of the old arguments against it are pretty much invalid in 7th (Too many books to keep track of? Welcome to 7th!).

However, I'd say that running a HH list against a regular 40k list might be pushing it. They're not really designed for the same game. I wouldn't have any problem with you using the HH models and the rules for Relic vehicles in 40k, but I think playing a 30k list against a 40k is bound to cause problems.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Bronzefists42 wrote:


The guy began the game refusing to listen to my attempts to explain the differences of an HH list to a normal SM list and than spent the whole game complaining about the rules he refused to let me explain to him before playing. He ended saying I shouldn't have bought the HH book (something I waited a while to get) and just gotten a land raider. I know people are trying to "help" you when giving you advice but its annoying when the help involves berating you for your choices.

Tbf, I would not play a HH list with SM list either. Not because of any difference in power level, but playing 30k vs. 40k is just stupid to me as it completely breaks with any logical background story and takes immersion away.

30K marines got lost in the warp, popped out 10,000 years later. Happens all the time in 40k.

30k shouldn't be used against 40k because the point costs are radically different and its basically its own game that uses the same ruleset(but different point costs)

You'll notice that 30k marines are cheaper than identical 40k marines.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

30K marines got lost in the warp, popped out 10,000 years later. Happens all the time in 40k.

It's up to everyone himself on how much you want to forge your narrative

 Grey Templar wrote:
30k shouldn't be used against 40k because the point costs are radically different and its basically its own game that uses the same ruleset(but different point costs)

You'll notice that 30k marines are cheaper than identical 40k marines.

And also have different wargear and no ATSKNF, also that they have a higher base cost and different "legion rules"

Just think of them as another subset of MEQ that has different rules, like CSM and all that.

I wouldn't play where people don't allow FW despite the fact I don't use anything from them.

I play a marine player quite often who runs a contemptor and my weekly Tau opponent is just adding some remoras to his army.

I would be a tad miffed if someone turned up with a fireraptor or something in a 1000 pt friendly but then people take knights in 1k games and they are tougher than a lot of FW models, hell I have seen people take duel riptides at 1k!

If someone wants to spend that kind of money on a model and paint it then they get my respect, to be that into the hobby is a good thing.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
This thread is actually about using 30k vs. 40k as that's what the OP was using, and that was the problem his opponent had. I can see how lots of people would have a problem playing against 30k (fluff reasons, lack of familiarity with units/weapons etc.) I would play 40k vs. 30k but would be very disappointed if they rocked up with HH books and 40k models. If you want to use them, buy the right models.

I let a guy use his normal Salamander as 30k Salamanders for a game. It was ok, wouldn't want to do that on a regular basis though.

30k can be done on the cheap with standard GW plastic though, there are a couple mk 6 and a mk 5 suits in the normal Tac squad box. Just mix and match with your friends and you should be able to scrape together a few tactical squads. Intermix them with some FW resin , add in a vehicle every so often and you should be good to go.

30k armies can also be written up using the two smaller HH books, they have all the units to out together any crusade legion list and the other book has all the flavor you need to flesh out one of the 11 legions they have covered already. The best part of those two books is that they are no more expensive than a standard codex.

To be fair, the only post heresy model of power armour was the Mk8, so in the tactical squad box that only stops you from using one torso...
MK 6 and 7 were not pre heresy though but heresy era, so they were around prior to Isstvan 3 and the siege of Terra respectively. Just for those who give a dam about using the "right" models. Just cut off the aquilas..

 sierra 1247 wrote:
To be fair, the only post heresy model of power armour was the Mk8, so in the tactical squad box that only stops you from using one torso...
MK 6 and 7 were not pre heresy though but heresy era, so they were around prior to Isstvan 3 and the siege of Terra respectively. Just for those who give a dam about using the "right" models. Just cut off the aquilas..

Not all the legions during that period had MK 6 and 7, mostly Traitor legions did because of them setting the supply lines for themselves, for example Ultramarines had to improvise their own armor at that time.

30k marines the same as normal marines? Umm no.
Loss of ATSKNF is a biggie. Tacticals only come with bolters and you have to pay extra points to give them CCWs. So yeah they are cheaper in large numbers, but more expensive when you only use ten.
Same game, different army list.

Competative games are ones where you play to win as much as you play for fun. Usually because of a prize. Therefore it is still just as competative as before. The mistake many are making is confusing competative with skill needed to play and win. Heck, you have competative rock paper scissors matches but doesnt take much skill to win.

In my local area, I've found that the atmosphere has changed some. Where before at tournies and so forth you usually saw a set group of players who played. Now, you see a different group taking part more and playing in tournies more. This new group is the louder and mouthier players (this is just our local area, not what might be the norm in other areas) who have more cash to spend buying titans and super heavies and so forth. this is because they had enough to build their armies, build extra armies and buy all that beforehand while the rest of us had struggled to build a single army without the titans and such so the "richer" players had a HUGE head start in 7th edition. Now, given time as more players save up or convert, this may change.
But like I said, this is just my local area but i think you may find the same sort of situation in many other areas as well.
Personally, I like forgeworld and have no problem facing it if you have the rules. Some of the stuff, I do like to have advance notice of though asa preference. For example if I have a 1850 TAC army (this is going away with the wildly different army options out there now) and you have a reaver titan, I will likely play someone else instead because I would simply not be equiped to deal with it. Nothing personal and I'd love to check out the model, I'm just realistic enough to know I wouldnt stand a chance and would opt for a more even game. Now if I know ahead of time to prepare some, I'd be tickled to play you just to see it in action.