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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 sierra 1247 wrote:
To be fair, the only post heresy model of power armour was the Mk8, so in the tactical squad box that only stops you from using one torso...
MK 6 and 7 were not pre heresy though but heresy era, so they were around prior to Isstvan 3 and the siege of Terra respectively. Just for those who give a dam about using the "right" models. Just cut off the aquilas..

Not all the legions during that period had MK 6 and 7, mostly Traitor legions did because of them setting the supply lines for themselves, for example Ultramarines had to improvise their own armor at that time.

Dude, I'm not saying it was standard issue, just they were about. Prototype suits were implemented into some of the Legions, just not in great numbers. So if someone wants to use 40k tactical marines as legion marines I don't care.
Hell it's what I do.

 sierra 1247 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 sierra 1247 wrote:
To be fair, the only post heresy model of power armour was the Mk8, so in the tactical squad box that only stops you from using one torso...
MK 6 and 7 were not pre heresy though but heresy era, so they were around prior to Isstvan 3 and the siege of Terra respectively. Just for those who give a dam about using the "right" models. Just cut off the aquilas..

Not all the legions during that period had MK 6 and 7, mostly Traitor legions did because of them setting the supply lines for themselves, for example Ultramarines had to improvise their own armor at that time.

Dude, I'm not saying it was standard issue, just they were about. Prototype suits were implemented into some of the Legions, just not in great numbers. So if someone wants to use 40k tactical marines as legion marines I don't care.
Hell it's what I do.

Eh I'm not faulting ya for it is what I'm saying, just mostly teasing. Know people who whole sale conversion armies.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
Sounds like the OP was running a Horus Heresy SM list against a regular list. I'm a massive fan of Forge World and can't think why anyone would refuse to play against it under normal conditions. Having said that it''s quite a stretch to expect to be allowed to play what is really a different game system [in terms of balance between different army selections] without a lot of discussion beforehand. I don't have a clue how all of the different Horus Heresy units work. Personally I'd play it because I'm pretty much an anything goes type of player, but I can definitely see why someone would be a little unhappy.

I agree with this. HH army lists are above and beyond just another FW list. It is specifically made to be played against other HH lists. It isn't like the DKOK or Deff Dredd lists.

While true that they were INTENDED to be used with other 30k lists, it does not mean they mix all that bad when pitted with 40k lists.

They mix quite well actually, except admech who I still have doubts about.

I've been using a Taghmata Omnissiah list from 30k for a long-ass time now (basically since release) to represent my Forge World in the 41st Millenium.

It has some pretty significant strengths, including list durability, speed, and force density (has great force concentration).

It also has some pretty significant weaknesses, such as force density (can't really spread out without becoming super thin), close combat (majority WS3 and I3 or even I2), and target priority (a variety of units available to the army means that every enemy unit is a threat to -something-).

It isn't so bad.

I’ve been running my 30k army quite happily with the locals. In fact it’s rather weak compared to the power builds out there. With that, there’s still a local hater and we won’t play because of it.

Right now I’m running 28 terminators in Spartan, 2 landraiders and a stormeagle at 2500 points.

I'm personal fine with 40k forgeworld, but I don't know whether I would play against 30k. I guess it depends on the comparative power level.

 sierra 1247 wrote:
To be fair, the only post heresy model of power armour was the Mk8, so in the tactical squad box that only stops you from using one torso...
MK 6 and 7 were not pre heresy though but heresy era, so they were around prior to Isstvan 3 and the siege of Terra respectively. Just for those who give a dam about using the "right" models. Just cut off the aquilas..

Actually Mark 7 was only issued to those legions who were on Terra for the siege. Quote from Lexicanum "While the final battle for Mars was underway, the Imperium realised the planet would eventually be lost. Armour development teams were transferred to Earth to continue, incorporating their latest work into the armour type that would become Mark 7. As Mars fell to Horus, the new armour began reaching the Space Marines on Terra and Luna."

So, only Imperial Fists, Blood Angels and White Scars would have this armour during The Heresy. During The Scouring yeah, but then you've moved into a different era and into post-Heresy.

I still think it's a pretty douche move bringing 30k to a 40k fight without prior agreement and discussion, although I think rule of cool applies in this situation. If you've got a beautifully painted force of FW 30k models then game on. If you rock up with standard GW marines then it smacks of attempting to gain an advantage without paying the model tax. I am in favour of Lords of War, but would never bring a counts as titan and expect to be able to use it. I'll bring my FW Warhound

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 sierra 1247 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 sierra 1247 wrote:
To be fair, the only post heresy model of power armour was the Mk8, so in the tactical squad box that only stops you from using one torso...
MK 6 and 7 were not pre heresy though but heresy era, so they were around prior to Isstvan 3 and the siege of Terra respectively. Just for those who give a dam about using the "right" models. Just cut off the aquilas..

Not all the legions during that period had MK 6 and 7, mostly Traitor legions did because of them setting the supply lines for themselves, for example Ultramarines had to improvise their own armor at that time.

Dude, I'm not saying it was standard issue, just they were about. Prototype suits were implemented into some of the Legions, just not in great numbers. So if someone wants to use 40k tactical marines as legion marines I don't care.
Hell it's what I do.

Eh I'm not faulting ya for it is what I'm saying, just mostly teasing. Know people who whole sale conversion armies.

Sorry man, I wasn't in the best of moods when I saw it and immediately thought "insult!!! Must be douchey!"

I played against 4 legion lists and had a blast going up against them. first time I ended up winning against the army in a zone mortalis game, but ended up losing in a pitched battle, about a year later I played another HH army and ended up just barley winning, and then the next time I lost completely. I can safely say it's fun and even a little underpowered compared to 40k stuff.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 sierra 1247 wrote:
To be fair, the only post heresy model of power armour was the Mk8, so in the tactical squad box that only stops you from using one torso...
MK 6 and 7 were not pre heresy though but heresy era, so they were around prior to Isstvan 3 and the siege of Terra respectively. Just for those who give a dam about using the "right" models. Just cut off the aquilas..

Actually Mark 7 was only issued to those legions who were on Terra for the siege. Quote from Lexicanum "While the final battle for Mars was underway, the Imperium realised the planet would eventually be lost. Armour development teams were transferred to Earth to continue, incorporating their latest work into the armour type that would become Mark 7. As Mars fell to Horus, the new armour began reaching the Space Marines on Terra and Luna."

So, only Imperial Fists, Blood Angels and White Scars would have this armour during The Heresy. During The Scouring yeah, but then you've moved into a different era and into post-Heresy.

I still think it's a pretty douche move bringing 30k to a 40k fight without prior agreement and discussion, although I think rule of cool applies in this situation. If you've got a beautifully painted force of FW 30k models then game on. If you rock up with standard GW marines then it smacks of attempting to gain an advantage without paying the model tax. I am in favour of Lords of War, but would never bring a counts as titan and expect to be able to use it. I'll bring my FW Warhound

I meant mk6 was around just prior to Isstvan 3 and mk7 right on the siege of Terra, or is that what your inferring?

But attempting to gain an advantage without paying the model tax? That seems harsh. If you can afford to splash out on a full 2000pts HH list in a month then fair enough, but a lot of people don't have the cash to do that all in one go, I play pre heresy World Eaters with a good part of the tactical squads mixed up with 40k tactical marines, as well as some heresy era patterns. I don't see how it's that bad, in most games HH lists are at a big disadvantage against many 40k lists because they are designed to work above 2000pts. Obviously arrange this beforehand otherwise it is a bit of a dick move, but then so is expecting every single person who wants to play HH lists to have to only use the 30k models. If your on a budget, what choice do you have? Just represent them as late heresy Astartes. I don't see a problem with this.

 sierra 1247 wrote:

I meant mk6 was around just prior to Isstvan 3 and mk7 right on the siege of Terra, or is that what your inferring?

Mark 7 was only available to the loyalist legions who were actually on Terra. Not sure about how widely available it was for traitor legions, can't find anything in the fluff. However, as it has a big Imperial eagle on the chest I doubt it was very popular with the traitor legions which makes me think it was loyalist only. So, only Scars, Fists and Blood Angels would be wearing Mark 7 during The Heresy [possibly traitor legions too but without the eagle?], although it became widespread afterwards.

But attempting to gain an advantage without paying the model tax? That seems harsh. If you can afford to splash out on a full 2000pts HH list in a month then fair enough, but a lot of people don't have the cash to do that all in one go, I play pre heresy World Eaters with a good part of the tactical squads mixed up with 40k tactical marines, as well as some heresy era patterns. I don't see how it's that bad, in most games HH lists are at a big disadvantage against many 40k lists because they are designed to work above 2000pts. Obviously arrange this beforehand otherwise it is a bit of a dick move, but then so is expecting every single person who wants to play HH lists to have to only use the 30k models. If your on a budget, what choice do you have? Just represent them as late heresy Astartes. I don't see a problem with this.

I'm only applying the same standards I would to any other FW models. If I want my opponent to play against my FW stuff the expectation is that I stump up the money. Maybe it's just my gaming group but counts as FW is a real no-no. I expect my opponent to be flexible, he expects me to pay for the correct model. As I said, I would never plonk down a Hello Kitty cuddly toy and use it as a counts as Warhound. I'm obviously exaggerating but using counts as Forge World is pushing it for me.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I'm personal fine with 40k forgeworld, but I don't know whether I would play against 30k. I guess it depends on the comparative power level.

It's the point level that matters. The 30k lists scale weirdly next to normal 40k lists. A lot of 30k units for example only really shine at max unit strength of 10 or 20 marines with full kit and costing 300-400pts for example and really feel designed for 2500pt games, while 40k codex marine units usually come out at ~150-200pts and usually play 1500-2000pts.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I'm personal fine with 40k forgeworld, but I don't know whether I would play against 30k. I guess it depends on the comparative power level.

It's the point level that matters. The 30k lists scale weirdly next to normal 40k lists. A lot of 30k units for example only really shine at max unit strength of 10 or 20 marines with full kit and costing 300-400pts for example and really feel designed for 2500pt games, while 40k codex marine units usually come out at ~150-200pts and usually play 1500-2000pts.

It's a bit due to the lack of minmaxing in 30k lists, starting at 10 units and going up with cheaper costs means you want to build "Horde" armies at times.

Though 30k lists make up for it with more powerful tech on elites and heavy units (Also the Paragon blade is pretty much mandatory on most Praetors, Dark Age of Technological Perfection indeed)

Fluffwise the original source (WD129) for the armour fluff said that when the legions were broken up during the 2nd Founding for the most part the armour available was a mix of Mk6 & Mk7 with a smattering of older types which is pretty much what you get in the plastic box, so I think the regular marines are fine for a late-Scouring force, which I think would be better suited to the 30k list than the (post-Codex Astartes) modern 40k lists.

Forge Worlds official word on the subject is that the lists are 'broadly compatible' but you may get issues. They suggest you may want to increase opposing armies maximum squad size. I don't really think that's necessary but I do think you should avoid using volkite weaponry against the likes of Orks, Guard and Tyranids.

 Gashrog wrote:
Fluffwise the original source (WD129) for the armour fluff said that when the legions were broken up during the 2nd Founding for the most part the armour available was a mix of Mk6 & Mk7 with a smattering of older types which is pretty much what you get in the plastic box, so I think the regular marines are fine for a late-Scouring force, which I think would be better suited to the 30k list than the (post-Codex Astartes) modern 40k lists.

Forge Worlds official word on the subject is that the lists are 'broadly compatible' but you may get issues. They suggest you may want to increase opposing armies maximum squad size. I don't really think that's necessary but I do think you should avoid using volkite weaponry against the likes of Orks, Guard and Tyranids.

Why? It's just weaker Tesla that has a cost (Cause an unsaved wound, deal an automatic hit that does not cause more automatic hits)

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Why? It's just weaker Tesla that has a cost (Cause an unsaved wound, deal an automatic hit that does not cause more automatic hits)

Weaker? The closest unit for unit comparison is an Immortal squad with Tesla Carbines vs a Tactical Support Squad with Volkite Calivers.

A maxed out squad of the former comes in at 170pts and lays down 10 shots at 24"
For ten points less* the latter will lay down 12 shots with higher strength and better AP at 30" and the Deflagrate rule will consistently generate more additional wounds against most Guard, Nid and Ork infantry than the Tesla Carbines will.

* if you go ten points the other way and it goes up to 14.

The Volkite's point costs (Caliver costs 1/3rd as much as a Plasma Gun) make perfect sense for their lack of effectiveness in a marine vs marine game, but it really doesn't reflect its ability to go through the aforementioned armies rank and file like a hot knife through butter.

Weaker? The closest unit for unit comparison is an Immortal squad with Tesla Carbines vs a Tactical Support Squad with Volkite Calivers.

A maxed out squad of the former comes in at 170pts and lays down 10 shots at 24"
For ten points less* the latter will lay down 12 shots with higher strength and better AP at 30" and the Deflagrate rule will consistently generate more additional wounds against most Guard, Nid and Ork infantry than the Tesla Carbines will.

Pointing out:

The Caliver isn't the match to Tesla Carbine, Caliver is more equivalent to Tesla Cannons, S6 H2 for the Caliver, S6 A2 for the latter.

However the Caliver is pretty much still an S6 AP5 bolter, it's basically a heavy bolter that can't penetrate good saves and cover will have the deflagrate rule gaining far less traction then the equivalent Roll to hit of 6 of tesla with + 6" range.

There's also the fact that Immortals come with Reanimation protocols, and don't require another squad to come with. You have two take two basic troops choices before you can take a Legion Tactical Support Squad, so on top of the Calivers and squad you are paying a minimum 300 points before buying said support legion, it sounds nice in theory but if you really need more anti-horde after Double Tapping with Fury of the Legion you might be having a bit of an issue.

I don't really like FW as I feel everything about it is bothersome. Rules spread over multiple books which are not all up to date and buying the stuff is a hassle.

If GW won't sell it at their stores, won't let you ship it there, and you're officially not allowed to use it in store either. I'm not sure why I should be anymore accommodating...


That said if a player brings the models ( preferably knockoffs) and shares a copy of the relevant army entries upfront I'm more than happy to play against them. I would only play against a 30k list in arranged games.

 Antario wrote:
I don't really like FW as I feel everything about it is bothersome. Rules spread over multiple books which are not all up to date and buying the stuff is a hassle.

If GW won't sell it at their stores, won't let you ship it there, and you're officially not allowed to use it in store either. I'm not sure why I should be anymore accommodating...


That said if a player brings the models ( preferably knockoffs) and shares a copy of the relevant army entries upfront I'm more than happy to play against them. I would only play against a 30k list in arranged games.

who says your not allowed to use it in store?

to be honest i think you just have an axe to grind, as covered with your hoping they bring knockoff models.
its hardly bothersome, i mean if i want to play anything in 40k i have to bring the relevant rules, be it FW stuff or my chaos marines, and if your not familiar you are 100% allowed to read the rules just as i am with yours.
how you find internet shopping to be a hassle, and bothersome i do not know. its far simpler than going to your local store, just less of the Instant gratification

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

 Antario wrote:
I don't really like FW as I feel everything about it is bothersome. Rules spread over multiple books which are not all up to date and buying the stuff is a hassle.

If GW won't sell it at their stores, won't let you ship it there, and you're officially not allowed to use it in store either. I'm not sure why I should be anymore accommodating...


That said if a player brings the models ( preferably knockoffs) and shares a copy of the relevant army entries upfront I'm more than happy to play against them. I would only play against a 30k list in arranged games.

who says your not allowed to use it in store?

to be honest i think you just have an axe to grind, as covered with your hoping they bring knockoff models.
its hardly bothersome, i mean if i want to play anything in 40k i have to bring the relevant rules, be it FW stuff or my chaos marines, and if your not familiar you are 100% allowed to read the rules just as i am with yours.
how you find internet shopping to be a hassle, and bothersome i do not know. its far simpler than going to your local store, just less of the Instant gratification

The local GW manager told me it was against company policy to have it in the store as they don't want to complicate games for new players or scare off potential entrants. That is a fairly ambivalent stance toward a par of their own company.

As for bothersome: the rulebooks aren't the most pleasant to navigate, nor is there a digital version by BL. The basic game has already enough rules bloat with formations and supplements to add on a another range of books.

Internet shipping by FW is expensive and a hassle due to domestic courier/mail-service issues. I find it amateurish that FW cannot be shipped to a GW store for free like normal 40K mail orders as those are send from the same facility.


Forgive my spite but I would like to see them feel a bit of consumer backlash so they get their house in order.

Makumba wrote:
The problems is also rules. You can't check them yourself and opponents are only forced to show what is printed, not which printing of the book they have and which printing is now legal.

It gives a huge edge to people who can buy stuff online over those who can't. It is enough that they can buy those 4-5 serpents, which are hard to get at a store, but when they suddenly get units no one knows rules for and the only way to check those rules are a book, you don't know and have no option to check, if it is still legal or a pdf , which may be changed, few people will want to play against people with FW rules.

Also maybe in other areas it is different, but here the FW units that people talk about being used, are the OP ones.

Given FW don't do digital versions, ask to see the actual rule book if you have doubts? No hard copy - no play?

 Antario wrote:

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

 Antario wrote:
I don't really like FW as I feel everything about it is bothersome. Rules spread over multiple books which are not all up to date and buying the stuff is a hassle.

If GW won't sell it at their stores, won't let you ship it there, and you're officially not allowed to use it in store either. I'm not sure why I should be anymore accommodating...


That said if a player brings the models ( preferably knockoffs) and shares a copy of the relevant army entries upfront I'm more than happy to play against them. I would only play against a 30k list in arranged games.

who says your not allowed to use it in store?

to be honest i think you just have an axe to grind, as covered with your hoping they bring knockoff models.
its hardly bothersome, i mean if i want to play anything in 40k i have to bring the relevant rules, be it FW stuff or my chaos marines, and if your not familiar you are 100% allowed to read the rules just as i am with yours.
how you find internet shopping to be a hassle, and bothersome i do not know. its far simpler than going to your local store, just less of the Instant gratification

The local GW manager told me it was against company policy to have it in the store as they don't want to complicate games for new players or scare off potential entrants. That is a fairly ambivalent stance toward a par of their own company.

As for bothersome: the rulebooks aren't the most pleasant to navigate, nor is there a digital version by BL. The basic game has already enough rules bloat with formations and supplements to add on a another range of books.

Internet shipping by FW is expensive and a hassle due to domestic courier/mail-service issues. I find it amateurish that FW cannot be shipped to a GW store for free like normal 40K mail orders as those are send from the same facility.


Forgive my spite but I would like to see them feel a bit of consumer backlash so they get their house in order.

Then the manager is lying through his teeth. All the gws in my area, around four or so, see regular use of FW models and their rules and no one says a thing.

Makumba wrote:


1) The problems is also rules. You can't check them yourself and opponents are only forced to show what is printed, not which printing of the book they have and which printing is now legal.

2) It gives a huge edge to people who can buy stuff online over those who can't. It is enough that they can buy those 4-5 serpents, which are hard to get at a store, but when they suddenly get units no one knows rules for and the only way to check those rules are a book, you don't know and have no option to check, if it is still legal or a pdf , which may be changed, few people will want to play against people with FW rules.

Also maybe in other areas it is different, but here the FW units that people talk about being used, are the OP ones.

This is utter nonsense.

1) Not everyone buys every codex, ergo not everyone has access to everyone's rules. As for which printing is now legal, thats also silly for the same reason.

2) Anyone can buy stuff online because anyone can get a credit card, or ask a friend who has one to buy it for you and you give them cash. The only way to check the rules for those 5 Wave Serpents is to check a book. What if the store keeps all the books shrink wrapped or you can only get books by special order?


Forge World is just as accessible as codices. Its just a little more expense in an already expensive hobby.

 Antario wrote:
I don't really like FW as I feel everything about it is bothersome. Rules spread over multiple books which are not all up to date and buying the stuff is a hassle.

How is this different than codex books?

If GW won't sell it at their stores, won't let you ship it there, and you're officially not allowed to use it in store either. I'm not sure why I should be anymore accommodating...

GW stores don't sell it on the shelf because it's a specialist product. They also don't sell Sisters of Battle without special orders either but nobody seems to begrudge them for that reason. When Battle Bunkers were still a thing they certainly carried FW stuff.

If your GW store manager isn't allowing it, report them to their regional manager, they're basically just not wanting to advertise sales that don't apply to their metrics.

Hoenstly, GW didn't create FW and hire people to staff it just for players not to use the stuff....

 Antario wrote:


As for bothersome: the rulebooks aren't the most pleasant to navigate

That's mighty subjective. Many say the same of normal codex books.

nor is there a digital version by BL.

Since when did that become a requirement? How did people play this game before midway through 6E?

The basic game has already enough rules bloat with formations and supplements to add on a another range of books.

FW has been around much longer than most of that other stuff...

Internet shipping by FW is expensive and a hassle due to domestic courier/mail-service issues.

While true, why is this not an issue people bring up with stuff like Sisters of Battle or other online-only/specialist items?

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
Lately I have noticed both on Dakkadakka and at some Gaming stores that people seem to really have a strong distaste for Forge World stuff. Any idea where that might come from?

Availability is always the biggest reason, and gaming stores don't make money on FW stuff. But it's eased up more in recent years so I don't think it's quite as bad as it used to be.

I think there has always been a general distaste of FW stuff as often you have to order it, their supplies are limited, and it really only adds things for imperials which already have a lot of things so its kind of boring for most of the xenos players.

That coupled with FW generally being slower to update their rules means often their things are either overcosted and underpowered, or terribly more efficient than they were meant to be when a new edition changes something in the core rules.

FW stopped all rules updating. They changed to just re-releasing the books.

 Sigvatr wrote:
FW stopped all rules updating. They changed to just re-releasing the books.

Those re-releases are updates though.

Yep. Charging for mandatory updates is just ridiculous.