Anti Forge World Climate?

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**Thud**

Frozen Ocean wrote:While your points are valid (except perhaps the example of a Volkite Charger, which I don't think exists outside of 30k at all) in terms of being reasons for anti-FW sentiment, Thud, my experience with people has exclusively been the misconception that everything FW touches automatically becomes obscenely broken.

Speaking of 30k/40k crossover, however; am I mistaken in thinking that the Legiones Astartes List is a FW-designed "30k in 40k"? In which case, it is just as valid as any other 40k army. I respect people rejecting 30k units in 40k on the basis that they are, in essence, from a different game, albeit one that the designers have said can be played with a high degree of compatibility, but rejecting something specifically made for 40k based on "it's Forge World" is silliness.

EDIT: People reject a lot in 40k. It isn't about whether or not they can (because it is of course always their right to reject anything they want, including the use of Guardsmen and purple Vespids), but whether or not they are justified. It would be justifiable to reject a Transcendent C'tan (something almost universally regarded as massively broken), but not to reject all superheavies/gargantuans. "It's Forge World" is not a valid reason to reject things, and the association with Forge World and broken units is hypocritical at best, considering the things that GW-main put out. As for rules, one player should always share rules with the other. This applies to Codexes as well, because it is rare that a person will know every single army down to every statline, point cost, and special rule.

The Volkite Charger was just the first weapon I thought of, as I'm currently looking at building a Mechanicum army.

As for 30k, it is and it isn't 40k. It uses the 40k rules, but point costs and weaponry are designed to work in a pure 30k context (e.g., the aforementioned Volkite weaponry is usually among the cheaper options as it's not that great against power armour, but against 40k light infantry it's murder). FWIW, I think 30k armies are pretty balanced, and more underpowered than overpowered in 40k.

I agree that the FW=OP is a prevalent attitude, but I've also found a lot of players see FW as a complicated add-on to an already bloated game that they're simply not interested in making the effort of familiarizing themselves with.

Bronzefists42 wrote:Thud, you brought up some really good points.

However saying "there is something wrong with you people" about people who just want to run FW seems to be pushing the envelope.

Did you miss the last part of my post? If I run FW, then it doesn't seem very likely that I think there's something wrong with people for wanting to run FW, does it? My initial comment was aimed at the level of discourse in this thread. I don't know why, but there's something about FW that just brings out the worst in people on Dakka, and have them digging trenches immediately. If another poster doesn't agree on whatever dogmatic view one has on FW, he's not just wrong, he's literally worse than Hitler.

I like FW. I also like running up mountains, statistics, and reading economic theory. Some people don't like these things. That's OK. Such is life.

**Frozen Ocean**

I agree on the 30k crossover front, with the possible exception of the "Legiones Astartes Army List" if it is what I think it is (a purpose-made crossover list). While I'd personally be open to playing against 30k army lists, I wouldn't take one with the belief that people should accept it (as opposed to taking, say, Bray'arth Ashmantle, who is just as legitimate in 40k as Vulkan He'stan is).

As for familiarity, the only thing that was different between FW and Codexes used to be the superheavy rules, but those are part of the main book now. It requires just as much knowledge to learn the stats of a unit from FW as it does to do the same for a Codex unit, especially with the Knights (who are mostly just the same as the regular Knight with slight tweaks and different guns). There isn't much difference between answering "what's a butcher cannon" or "what's a gravgun". This is especially true in the current state of 40k, as more and more armies get access to unique items with their own special rules, such as the Black Mace or Armour Indomitus.

**Furyou Miko**

Nah, the Legiones Astartes Army List is the army list for all Horus Heresy armies except AdMech ones.

It's then modified by which Legion you're playing, which gives you your army list.

**Frozen Ocean**

Is it supposed to be the official way the Legions were organised, or something to that effect? Unless it's not using the term "army list" quite the way we would, I don't exactly understand why it's a thing.

**ClockworkZion**

Frozen Ocean wrote:
Is it supposed to be the official way the Legions were organised, or something to that effect? Unless it's not using the term "army list" quite the way we would, I don't exactly understand why it's a thing.

Generally, yes. It's the base structure of how Legions are organized, but then every Legion adds some other things on top in rules, units and flavor (though you can go totally vanilla and not use the Legion specific things like if you're doing Legion from before they get their Primarch).

**Frozen Ocean**

Makes sense! Thanks for clarifying that for me.

**Bronzefists42**

Sorry about the misunderstanding thudd.

But yeah running a 30k list with 40k requires some common sense such as

1.Don't take volkite.
2. Try to avoid the larger sized units.
3. Don't take volkite.
4. Avoid some of the units with more complicated rules.
5. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PLEASE DON'T TAKE VOLKITE!

**Peregrine**

Bronzefists42 wrote:
1.Don't take volkite.
2. Try to avoid the larger sized units.
3. Don't take volkite.
4. Avoid some of the units with more complicated rules.
5. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PLEASE DON'T TAKE VOLKITE!

None of these things are an issue. Volkite is incredibly overrated in a TAC list, unless you're tailoring for a specific GEQ opponent and removing all of your melta/plasma to take more of it you're not going to have any problems. Telling people to avoid the larger units doesn't make any sense at all, the whole point of the list is big squads (this is why the per-model cost is lower to add models to a squad than to buy the initial models) and usually they just end up becoming point sinks once you make them full-size. And finally, who cares about "complicated" rules? Nothing in the 30k list is all that complicated, anyone who can't figure out how the rules work probably shouldn't be playing 40k at all.

**Co'tor Shas**

What's volkite?

**ausYenLoWang**

Frozen Ocean wrote:
If only the 7th Edition book had included a line about the legality of Forge World content. Then again, GW don't communicate with their customers, so how would they know that this is even an issue?

its there you missed it, its in army selection and tells you to use any games workshop publication to get your army lists from.

edit: unless you realised that... and were saying it to be cheeky haha

**Unit1126PLL**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
What's volkite?

AP5 guns (with varying strengths and rates of fire) that have Deflagrate. Deflagrate says: When a unit suffers an unsaved wound from a weapon with this rule, immediately resolve another wound against the unit using the weapon's profile. These newly-generated wounds cannot generate further wounds.

It really isn't all that bad.

**Blacksails**

Bronzefists42 wrote:
Sorry about the misunderstanding thudd.

But yeah running a 30k list with 40k requires some common sense such as

1.Don't take volkite.
2. Try to avoid the larger sized units.
3. Don't take volkite.
4. Avoid some of the units with more complicated rules.
5. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PLEASE DON'T TAKE VOLKITE!

None of those things are common sense. Or any type of sense for that matter.

Its pretty unreasonable to let someone play a 30k army, but then tell them to avoid everything unique, special, fun, and interesting about a 30k army.

People need to stop thinking of 30k as a different game, and start thinking of it as a different codex.

**ClockworkZion**

Heck, banning Volite like that basically tells people they can't use all the Mechanicum options (to include their kickass transport).

**ZebioLizard2**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Heck, banning Volite like that basically tells people they can't use all the Mechanicum options (to include their kickass transport).

I've even used Volkite Calivars against Tyranids and other GEQ, Cover is still a pain and 4+ saves make it worse.

It's basically Tesla without the +2 hits on a 6.

**Frozen Ocean**

ausYenLoWang wrote:
Frozen Ocean wrote:
If only the 7th Edition book had included a line about the legality of Forge World content. Then again, GW don't communicate with their customers, so how would they know that this is even an issue?

its there you missed it, its in army selection and tells you to use any games workshop publication to get your army lists from.

edit: unless you realised that... and were saying it to be cheeky haha

I was being literal, as in literally literal. As seen in this very thread, people are extremely pedantic about what constitutes "a Games Workshop publication", and denounce Forge World as some floating island of a company that is neither Games Workshop nor not Games Workshop, and most definitely not Citadel. It's absurd, but people regularly use it to legitimise an anti-FW policy.

Also, don't ban Volkite. Volkite is cool. It is, in fact, one of my favourite things about 30k (not in a game sense, but in a fluff sense, much like how I feel about Land Raiders). The only thing with 30k crossover is that the official stance on it is "yeah, should be fine" (which, to be fair, is much more regard than GW gives their Codexes, because what is an external balance?), rather than any actual ruling, so declining it (which is just being generally an unfun person, but whatever) is more justified than declining absolutely anything and everything Forge World, based purely on "it's Forge World", which is just unfair.

EDIT: So, in short, the 40k rulebook should have a definition of "a Games Workshop publication" that is as descriptive as a legal document and takes up the first twenty pages of the book. People would still argue about it, though.

**Tannhauser42**

Volkite is a nonissue. If you want to ban it because it's cheap and kills light infantry, then you better ban flamers and heavy bolters, too. 40K has always put a premium price on MEQ-killing weapons, and made other weapons cheap.

**ausYenLoWang**

Frozen Ocean wrote:
ausYenLoWang wrote:
Frozen Ocean wrote:
If only the 7th Edition book had included a line about the legality of Forge World content. Then again, GW don't communicate with their customers, so how would they know that this is even an issue?

its there you missed it, its in army selection and tells you to use any games workshop publication to get your army lists from.

edit: unless you realised that... and were saying it to be cheeky haha

I was being literal, as in literally literal. As seen in this very thread, people are extremely pedantic about what constitutes "a Games Workshop publication", and denounce Forge World as some floating island of a company that is neither Games Workshop nor not Games Workshop, and most definitely not Citadel. It's absurd, but people regularly use it to legitimise an anti-FW policy.

Also, don't ban Volkite. Volkite is cool. It is, in fact, one of my favourite things about 30k (not in a game sense, but in a fluff sense, much like how I feel about Land Raiders). The only thing with 30k crossover is that the official stance on it is "yeah, should be fine" (which, to be fair, is much more regard than GW gives their Codexes, because what is an external balance?), rather than any actual ruling, so declining it (which is just being generally an unfun person, but whatever) is more justified than declining absolutely anything and everything Forge World, based purely on "it's Forge World", which is just unfair.

EDIT: So, in short, the 40k rulebook should have a definition of "a Games Workshop publication" that is as descriptive as a legal document and takes up the first twenty pages of the book. People would still argue about it, though.

yep but banning anything under the GW publication, removes all black library, white dwarf, or even your own codex. they are all as legitimate and legal as the next. thats what i was meaning.

**Bronzefists42**

Blacksails wrote:
Bronzefists42 wrote:
Sorry about the misunderstanding thudd.

But yeah running a 30k list with 40k requires some common sense such as

1.Don't take volkite.
2. Try to avoid the larger sized units.
3. Don't take volkite.
4. Avoid some of the units with more complicated rules.
5. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PLEASE DON'T TAKE VOLKITE!

None of those things are common sense. Or any type of sense for that matter.

Its pretty unreasonable to let someone play a 30k army, but then tell them to avoid everything unique, special, fun, and interesting about a 30k army.

People need to stop thinking of 30k as a different game, and start thinking of it as a different codex.

Well doing this has been the only thing letting me play it :(

**Frozen Ocean**

ausYenLoWang wrote:

yep but banning anything under the GW publication, removes all black library, white dwarf, or even your own codex. they are all as legitimate and legal as the next. thats what i was meaning.

I absolutely agree. Forge World, White Dwarf, and "Games Workshop" publications are all "Games Workshop publications". People will still pick and choose what does and does not constitute a "Games Workshop publication" at their leisure, usually giving a pass to White Dwarf and Black Library without any actual evidence as to why they are legitimate when Forge World is "not".

EDIT: @Bronzefists42: Try asking your regular opponents if you can use things piecemeal. Things they don't let you take, ask (politely) if they'll let you try it out. Volkite, for example. Demonstrate that it really isn't anything to be afraid of.

**Blacksails**

Bronzefists42 wrote:

Well doing this has been the only thing letting me play it :(

Why?

Are you trying to run a 30k list against a 40k army? Is your opponent informed of the rules and wargear? Is your list particularly well suited/tailored to deal with your opponent's list?

Volkite isn't as powerful as you implied it was earlier. But if your opponent is doing nothing but bringing GEQ and you're bringing nothing but Support Squads with Volkite, I do kind of feel for your opponent.

Legion lists are fine; they're simply a different way to play MEQ, the same way GK is a different style than C:SM.

**BoomWolf**

Yep, 30k lists are horde MeQ, where GK are elite MeQ. both are space marines tuned to opposite directions.

**Frozen Ocean**

It might be because said opponents don't really know what it is, and thus prefer to shun it than learn. Even if they've been informed, if they're going in with the mindset "FW/30k is OP", then I can imagine them reading "Volkite" and flatly refusing it without checking what it actually does.

**Makumba**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:
What's volkite?

AP5 guns (with varying strengths and rates of fire) that have Deflagrate. Deflagrate says: When a unit suffers an unsaved wound from a weapon with this rule, immediately resolve another wound against the unit using the weapon's profile. These newly-generated wounds cannot generate further wounds.

It really isn't all that bad.

by varying shots you mean how many 1-2?

**Bronzefists42**

I don't even use volkite but I know if I try to bring anything not found in normal SM lists it'll just be written off as some kid trying to run an OP power list. Other people have started running FW superheavies, (one guys uses a Thunderhawk) but they are adults. I feel like if they see a teenager using FW stuff that isn't the norm he's just some donkey cave brat trying to ruin the game. This is going off topic but people really do treat you differently if you are the youngest person in the room...

**Frozen Ocean**

So you're not actually meeting any resistance, you just feel like you're judged if you bring anything out of the ordinary? That's just unfair, especially when people are using FW superheavies in the same environment.

In that case, bring whatever you want to bring.

**Blacksails**

Bronzefists42 wrote:
I don't even use volkite but I know if I try to bring anything not found in normal SM lists it'll just be written off as some kid trying to run an OP power list. Other people have started running FW superheavies, (one guys uses a Thunderhawk) but they are adults. I feel like if they see a teenager using FW stuff that isn't the norm he's just some donkey cave brat trying to ruin the game. This is going off topic but people really do treat you differently if you are the youngest person in the room...

Sounds like you haven't actually tried, and all of this is entirely a fabrication in your head.

Maybe you should try and play a legion list the way you want with someone and be reasonable about explaining the changes and answering any and all questions.

**BlaxicanX**

It sounds like the problem is with his meta rather than him.

It sounds like his meta is filled with cowards, tbh.

**Bronzefists42**

The main issue is I am not 18, I feel judged a lot just playing the game at all. I like warhammer 40k but I worry that I am the person that everyone groans a little whe they see walking in, the person they think is an annoying donkey cave and spend the rest of the time wishing I would just leave. I have only won one real game with my legion list, and the only time there I have beat, someone older than me (I am a horrible player) and that was because I ran a medusa and a 20 man tactical squad with an apocathery. I won pretty easily (it was guard) but the player seemed angry about me running the list and mentioned he thought it was broken more than a few times.(He was not a jerk though and I felt bad for winning) I have stopped running a medusa since then by honestly I am afraid to take anything other than tactical marines and troops since I don't want to come off as a power gamer.

**Tannhauser42**

Makumba wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:
What's volkite?

AP5 guns (with varying strengths and rates of fire) that have Deflagrate. Deflagrate says: When a unit suffers an unsaved wound from a weapon with this rule, immediately resolve another wound against the unit using the weapon's profile. These newly-generated wounds cannot generate further wounds.

It really isn't all that bad.

by varying shots you mean how many 1-2?

The different Volkite weapons have different profiles (each weapon itself does not have any variables). Calivers, for example, are Heavy 2 while Culverins are Heavy 4.

Personally, I think the most frightening Support Squad loadout is letting them all keep the basic flamer and putting them in a drop pod (using the appropriate Rite of War, of course). 10 flamers will kill just about anything through sheer volume of fire (pun intended). I do use a Support Squad with Volkite Calivers, and they're surprisingly effective against light vehicles.

**Frozen Ocean**

OP, it really sounds more like a social anxiety problem than a Forge World problem, and 30k is not even close to the power level of Tau or Eldar, so you really have no cause for worry.

Bring your Legionnaires. Bring Volkite. If people really are judging you because of your age (which they probably aren't), let them. If you're right about them, then they'll judge you no matter what you do, and you should give them no quarter. If you're wrong, then you're limiting yourself because of your false perception of being "judged". Either way it makes no sense to be limited.