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 Mr Morden wrote:

yep - so not really enough to even fully crew their ships I don't think

Space Marines don't crew their ships. There might be some in command but the crew consists of Chapter serfs. Their ships also tend to be more automated than Imperial Navy vessels.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

yep - so not really enough to even fully crew their ships I don't think

Space Marines don't crew their ships. There might be some in command but the crew consists of Chapter serfs. Their ships also tend to be more automated than Imperial Navy vessels.

True, but at the same time you don't want a Strike Cruiser or Battlebarge floating around without anyone to defend it from boarding attacks (not counting ships that have just dropped off a strike force) so the number of ships will always be limited to some degree by the size of the chapter. Gun servitors etc will be able to do some anti-boarding action, but not as well as a Marine.

 Grim.Badger wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

yep - so not really enough to even fully crew their ships I don't think

Space Marines don't crew their ships. There might be some in command but the crew consists of Chapter serfs. Their ships also tend to be more automated than Imperial Navy vessels.

True, but at the same time you don't want a Strike Cruiser or Battlebarge floating around without anyone to defend it from boarding attacks (not counting ships that have just dropped off a strike force) so the number of ships will always be limited to some degree by the size of the chapter. Gun servitors etc will be able to do some anti-boarding action, but not as well as a Marine.

Battlefleet Gothic Armada said of the serf crews: "Although human, they still benefit from remarkable training and access to superior weaponry than is usually found on a naval vessel, making them a fearsome prospect in a boarding action – even without the support of their genetically modified lords."

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

yep - so not really enough to even fully crew their ships I don't think

Space Marines don't crew their ships. There might be some in command but the crew consists of Chapter serfs. Their ships also tend to be more automated than Imperial Navy vessels.

There will be at least a command crew of Wolves on each ship - so thats maybe a imimum of 600 Wolves with more on the Larger ships - so about 800 -1000 Wolves if all ships are in active service at the same time..

In many chapters failed Aspirants serve as a secondary force of not Asartes but more than human troops and warriors/ ship crew etc - the Wolves may or may not do that but it does sayy that they are mind scrubbed into Servitor Thralls.

the wolves likely keep a large navy out of tradtion. It'd not suprise me if they didn't crew em fully with astartes.

Also when I mentioned the three ship rule earlier, that's because generally speaking in a navy for every ship you have on station, ones dry docked for maintaince and one's steaming into station to relive that ship.

There will be at least a command crew of Wolves on each ship - so thats maybe a imimum of 600 Wolves with more on the Larger ships - so about 800 -1000 Wolves if all ships are in active service at the same time..

That would be almost the entire Chapter on the bridges of these ships... who's dirtside fighting?

 Psienesis wrote:

There will be at least a command crew of Wolves on each ship - so thats maybe a imimum of 600 Wolves with more on the Larger ships - so about 800 -1000 Wolves if all ships are in active service at the same time..

That would be almost the entire Chapter on the bridges of these ships... who's dirtside fighting?

thats kinda my point

The SW fleet does seem awful bloated but not every ship needs to be filled to capacity. Nor does every ship need to be active. It's entirely possible some ships have been decomissioned or left in dry dock. Its also possible some ships are merely hulls undergoing extensive repairs.

By... who, exactly? Fenris isn't exactly densely populated.

I mean, I like(d) the Space Wolves, but GW really have no fething clue what to do with them. So many fingers in that pie have created an absolutely impossible situation. Either Fenris has, literally, billions of barbarians living on it, despite the fact that it experiences an apocalypse-level event every few years, and somehow also manages to produce enough food and raw materials in the intervening years to feed, house and clothe this massive population, but, also, a healthy chunk of that population gets to go live with the Sky-Warriors and build starships for them, even though they have an Iron Age culture... or it doesn't, and the depiction of the Space Wolves, as presented, falls apart.

The SW serfs come from the same storage area where Leman Russ tanks have spare main cannon shells.

So maybe the Imperium *has* mastered that space-folding science that the Necrons have to hide alternative universes in their metallic pockets....

Not everything has to be made on the planet. Things can be bought or traded from elsewhere.

Fenris doesn't produce anything other than Space Wolves. What would they buy it with?

 Psienesis wrote:
Fenris doesn't produce anything other than Space Wolves. What would they buy it with?

Perhaps there is a

Perhaps there is a large trade "Wolf" themed tourist tat to the rest of the Imperium

I guess they could export beasts

They might have ancient pacts form worlds etc they have saved that they always forgot to mention in their fluff.............

 Psienesis wrote:
Fenris doesn't produce anything other than Space Wolves. What would they buy it with?

Krakentooth daggers.

 Psienesis wrote:
Fenris doesn't produce anything other than Space Wolves. What would they buy it with?

I would imagine that the Fang, being one of the greatest Imperial fortresses and ripe with ancient and powerful technologies has, at a minimum, a few hammers and nails and a welding torch to play with.

Theres massive manufactorums under the Fang. Thousands of Servitors slaving away for endless hours. Pretty sure they make more than just the wolves.

 Mr Morden wrote:

They might have ancient pacts form worlds etc they have saved that they always forgot to mention in their fluff.............

Or not even ancient pacts, just for recent deeds. One could certainly imagine that the brave marines that just saved Retawkcab would be offered gifts of whatever the planet produces. If it's raw materials for Artificer Armor, great. Ammunition and fuel is never wrong. If it's food, well, marines do need to eat. People can work and so on.

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
Theres massive manufactorums under the Fang. Thousands of Servitors slaving away for endless hours. Pretty sure they make more than just the wolves.

But there are no wolves on Fenris.

 minigun762 wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
Theres massive manufactorums under the Fang. Thousands of Servitors slaving away for endless hours. Pretty sure they make more than just the w olves.

But there are no wolves on Fenris.

Fixed that

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

There will be at least a command crew of Wolves on each ship - so thats maybe a imimum of 600 Wolves with more on the Larger ships - so about 800 -1000 Wolves if all ships are in active service at the same time..

That would be almost the entire Chapter on the bridges of these ships... who's dirtside fighting?

thats kinda my point

Who's crewing the ships of ANY chapter?

In none of the dex's does it mention a company of marines which are tasked with crewing the ships - they're all designated for fighting, each and every one.

It stands to reason that there are specific branches of the marines tasked with crewing, even if they are astartes. Why would you train up a tactical marine just to leave him on a starship for years manning the guns? You wouldn't, you'd train up another marine for that.

So, even with the Spacewolves "2300 marine hard-cap" that only refers to combat companies. They could have another several thousand laying around as "starship crew" who are not part of any of the ground-and-pound combat divisions.

EDIT: So far as logistics for how the Wolves get what they need goes, Chapters basically just ask the Ad-mech and other production departments for what they want, and promptly receive in most cases.

Well that's not true. The codexes themselves list out the company captaincies' titles as masters of the chapter, including a master of the fleet. The description is that this company captain, usually the fourth company's, is responsible for the fleet, and that he crews the ships either with squads from his own company or contributed by other companies.

I don't think the adeptus mechanicus can just give out stuff. Like, they have to get it from somewhere, and at some point there are too many chapters demanding stuff and not enough stuff.

pelicaniforce wrote:
Well that's not true. The codexes themselves list out the company captaincies' titles as masters of the chapter, including a master of the fleet. The description is that this company captain, usually the fourth company's, is responsible for the fleet, and that he crews the ships either with squads from his own company or contributed by other companies.

I don't think the adeptus mechanicus can just give out stuff. Like, they have to get it from somewhere, and at some point there are too many chapters demanding stuff and not enough stuff.

So I'm looking at page 15 on my Dark Angels codex.

The various branches listed there are as follows:

Reclusiam: Chaplains and the like.
1st Company: Deathwing, as is expected.
Chapter Command - the HQ staff.
2nd Company: The Ravenwing.
Librarius: Librarians, duh.
3rd Company: Battle company, mix of tac squads, assault squads, and devestator squads.
4th Company: Battle company, mix of tac squads, assault squads, and devestator squads.
5th Company: Battle company, mix of tac squads, assault squads, and devestator squads.
6th Company: Reserve company, 10 tac squads.
7th Company: Reserve company, 10 tac squads.
8th Company: Reserve company, 10 assault squads.
9th Company: Reserve company, 10 devestator squads.
10th Company: Scout Company.
Apthecarion: Apothecaries.
Armoury: Master of the rock, techmarines, servitors and vehicles.

So, uh, you were saying? In the codex that I have there is 1 of anything which might feel fleet crew, and it's simply "vehicles". There isn't jack about a master of the fleet, let alone him drawing combat ready marines from the various companies to crew the fleet.. Or even The Rock itself.

So what exactly pilots the Dark Angels craft? Happy feelings? No, it's a vague and completely unexplained portion of the armory (at least we assume) which is only mentioned in the sense of "& vehicles". It could be, as was mentioned, servitors and serfs. Or it could be a bunch of other astartes who aren't assigned to a company as ground-pounders. We don't know for sure.

Furthermore, that's the kind of relationship the Space Marines have with the Ad-mech and other branches of the imperium. They ask and they receive, because really they don't ask for much. Even a gigantic chapter is going to be WAY smaller than most Guard forces, and won't have to replace weapons / gear at anywhere near the rate.

pelicaniforce wrote:
Well that's not true. The codexes themselves list out the company captaincies' titles as masters of the chapter, including a master of the fleet. The description is that this company captain, usually the fourth company's, is responsible for the fleet, and that he crews the ships either with squads from his own company or contributed by other companies.

I don't think the adeptus mechanicus can just give out stuff. Like, they have to get it from somewhere, and at some point there are too many chapters demanding stuff and not enough stuff.

There's no statement in any codex I can find noting the exact role these individuals play with their titles, almost all the sources seem to indicate it's an honorrific and a duty seperate from their company command. I'm sure the 4th company of a chapter is the first pick for Marine duty yes, but they ahrdly assigned to ships all the time.

Oh here it is, fanatic magazine.

"A Space Marine is far too valuable to waste in manning a gun or watching a surveyor screen, and so only the officers aboard a vessel are likely to be Space Marines, as well as the few Techmarines who oversee the engines and perform other mechanical duties." (Fanatic Magazine 6, p. 54)

Almost all of the ship's systems are run and monitored by servitors; [they] are wired into the vessel's weapons, engines, and communications apparatus. There are also a few hundred Chapter serfs to attend to other duties, such as routine cleaning and maintenance, serving the Space Marines during meal times and other such honored tasks. These serfs are fanatically loyal to their superhuman masters, and are indoctrinated into many of the lesser orders of the Chapter's Cult. Although human, they still benefit from remarkable training and access to weaponry superior to that usually found on a naval vessel, making them a fearsome prospect in a boarding action." (Fanatic Magazine 6, p. 54)

"Usually, one of the Chapter's Captain will be appointed Master of the Fleet with overall responsibility for the Chapter's entire fleet. This will place at his disposal all the pilots, gunnery officers, command crews and navigators in the chapter. Whilst these serfs make up the vast bulk of crews aboard Space Marine vessels, the Master of the Fleet also has a number of Space Marines under his command, who act as high-ranking officers aboard the fleet's vessels, providing captains for individual vessels, leading specialised boarding parties." (Fanatic Magazine 6, p. 55)

"The exact organization of those Space Marines tasked with crewing the fleet varies from Chapter to Chapter. In some cases, it will be the Master of the Fleet's own company who provide these Marines, with each of his veteran captains acting as captain to a different vessel within the fleet while their own squad members each man a different vital area within that same vessel. In other cases, squads from different companies within the Chapter may be charged with manning the fleet, serving under the command of the Master of the Fleet in just the same way as a Space Marine battleforce may be made up of squads drawn from several companies across the Chapter under the battle-command of a single, nominated force commander." (Fanatic Magazine 6, p. 55)

"At an absolute minimum, a Master of the Fleet typically needs eighty to a hundred Marines to properly crew the fleet, its Thunderhawks and its landing craft, and most Chapters have measures in place to ensure that a astanding force of this size is permanently available to the Master of the Fleet, be it his own company in its entirety, or squads from across the Chapter left permanently at his disposal." (Fanatic Magazine 6, p. 55)

"As with all specialized roles which a Space Marine may be honored, serving in the fleet brings with it a variety of different titles and ranks...In this manner, a Space Marine force commander may well find that he is charged with command of both the battleforce and the transporting fleet, earning him additional honorifics such as Regent of the Fleet, Command at Sail and so on. A Marine's heraldry and personalized armor markings may well bear emblems of his service within the fleet, additional honors and titles gained there, or other emblems signifying their role within the fleet." (Fanatic Magazine 6, p. 55)

"In a dominion fleet (such as the Ultramarines, who rule over the domain of Ultramar under the Treaty of Macragge), many vessels are crewed entirely by Serfs, since the few available Space Marines are spread across a great many more vessels than is usual, perhaps even proving supporting crews to some of the Imperial Navy vessels."(Fanatic Magazine 6, p. 64)

The Imperial Navy and Ultramar

"The fleet practiced tactics with allies from Battlefleet Bakka." (Battlefleet Gothic Magazine 15, p. 23)

"There are no significant naval assets in the subsector." (Battlefleet Gothic Magazine 15, p. 19)


All transcribed at bolter and chainsword

Of course, these all discuss conventional Chapters.

There is another paradigm- the nomad-predation style Chapter, like the Carcharodons Astra.

Such Chapters don't receive battle barges and strike cruisers off the production lines when they suffer losses- even when those losses are regular as clock-work, like with the Minotaurs, Instead, they get by with what ships they have, relying on the skill of their tech-marines to improve and repair their vessels, and their boarding actions to procure new vessels.

Of course, there is an upside. The Nicor could go toe to toe with any Battle Barge and come out victorious hands-down... and since that's what they assigned to a Force Commander, it's possible there are bigger and nastier warships in their fleet.

even that article all but says that a space marine chapter with a large navy won't crew them all.

I mean one of the exceptions to the rules is listed as the ULTRAMARINES for gawds sake!

pelicaniforce wrote:
Oh here it is, fanatic magazine.......

Good find! This raises one of the issues I have with GW, their insistence that Marine chapters are 1000 strong etc and lack of clarity as to specific roles.

How many chapters would really semi-randomly assign Marines from battle companies to the fleet or crew roles? I don't think many would, they would train specific marines to do the job like they do with Devastator and Assault squads.

How large is a company? GW say 100 Marines, but that's not true as there is at least the Captain and command squad to add to that, making it 106.

How large is the Chapter? Each company (with the possible exception of the 1st and 10th) will be 106 strong, plus the Chapter Master and Honour Guard (11 Marines), plus the Librarians, Chaplains, Apothecaries (any who aren't assigned to a command squad), techmarines and the vehicle crews. You then have the fleet, and BL books seem to say that ship commanders/captains do their job on a permanent basis, but I have yet to read anything substantial about where any other marines come from (so assume they come from companies as per the article). IMO a standard Chapter would therefore be at least 1200 strong but potentially much larger depending on the Chapter's organisation.

I would love it if GW finally gave some real figures for Chapter organisations, including the fleets, even if they put on their normal caveats for unusual Chapters.

they would train specific marines to do the job like they do with Devastator and Assault squads.

except every Marine is trained to do that job at one point or anoither

Should be noted in the latest Space Wolves Codex, they have easily the biggest listed fleet strength of any chapter thus far. 8 Battle Barges, 30 strike cruisers, 30+ rapid strike vessel squadrons (so probably ~90 escort class ships).

That's pretty crazy.

As for the OP's question, the "standard" fleet is 2-3 Battle Barges, 6-10 Strike Cruisers, and ~10 Rapid Strike Vessel squadrons.