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Codex over BRB rule is not somthing you just throw out into every argument, and you know this.

It has to actually have a direct application to the argument.


There is no ignoring in this case, it simply hasnt even come up yet.


Why would Unstopabble mention vindicare's hellfire rounds when they wernt around at the time it was printed?

The only hellfire rounds in the game up to the release of the dataslate assasin were poisoned 2+, in which case unstopabble does mention them.


I guess at this point we are really only stuck determining one thing. Though some are assuredly thinking they know 100% already.

Is the Hellfire round itself wounding on a 2+ (which would require it to be a special rule in and of itself), or is it modifying the gun's profile.


As stated, I feel it is modifying the weapons profile, which would be both far simpler in design and function.

edited my response

Rx8Speed wrote:


That said though if I'm going to ignore the related name aspect of this, then I would say that the sniper still wounds on a 6+ and other weapons need a 2+. The gargantuan rule is: 'attacks with the sniper special rule wound on a 6+' . No matter what other rules the assassin's attacks have, they will always have the sniper special rule as well. So unless hellfire rule says 'always wounds on a 2+, this replaces sniper special rule' then a 6+ is needed. So it seems to me that we should be asking ourselves a question, if a sniper is shooting at a gargantuan creature adn rolls a 6 to wound, is the wound resolved at ap2? If you think the answer is yes, then this means that the attack has the sniper special rule (as it is directly benefitting from it) and therefore wounds GCs on a 6+. It's not really fair to have the benefits of a sniper but not the downsides, such as wounding GCs on a 6+.

The hellfire rounds are a special rule by themselves in that they are part of the exitus ammunition rule which is independent of sniper.

It explicitly states the shot that uses hellfire always wounds on a 2+, not the weapon profile. Effectively its a modifier you apply independently of the rest of the profile like having hatred.

I have neither the assassins nor gargantuan guys so I don't really have a dog in the fight.

 cyphersbootlick wrote:

It explicitly states the shot that uses hellfire always wounds on a 2+, not the weapon profile. Effectively its a modifier you apply independently of the rest of the profile like having hatred.

I has a similar question. The consensus of that (very limited) thread was that exitus ammo adds rules to the shot, but it retains the weapon profile in all other ways.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/614323.page#7200135

Note that the assassin minidex is not clearly worded like the Space Marine Hellfire entry. It does NOT provide a weapon profile for using that ammo (range24, S1, AP5, Poison 2+). It is my opinion that it is ambiguous, but I'm not going to beat my head on the wall over it as long as those guys cost the same as a vindicator tank.

If they are correct, it has both the exitus ammo rule AND the sniper rule. If someone wants to discard the Sniper Rule of the rifle, they MUST discard the AP2 as well as part of their argument.


Q1

On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence.

Q2

SPECIAL RULES
Gargantuan Creatures and Flying Gargantuan Creatures have the following special rules: Fear, Fearless, Feel No Pain, Hammer of Wrath, Move Through Cover, Relentless, Smash, Strikedown, Vector Strike (Flying Gargantuan Creatures only).

Note that "Unstoppable" is NOT a special rule, it is an additional condition or whatever you want to call it, but it is explicitly NOT a special rule by omission from being in that list.

Q3

Unstoppable
...In addition, attacks with the Sniper special rule only cause a Wound on a roll of a 6. Attacks with the Poisoned special rule only cause a Wound on a roll of a 6 (unless the attack’s Strength would cause a Wound on a lower result).

Q4

Sniper
...If a weapon has the Sniper special rule, or is fired by a model with the Sniper special rule, its shooting attacks always wound on a To Wound roll of 4+, regardless of the victim’s Toughness.

Once again, we have GW's wonderful writing. Unstoppable does NOT state that it is a "to Wound" roll of six, however obvious the "intention" may be. Someone with a gargantuan creature may legitimately believe the not only need to be wounded by a sniper weapon, but that the sniper or poisoned wound then gets discarded on another roll if it comes up 1-5.
So we have
Premise 1: saying the Exitus hellfire ammo always wounds on a 2+.
Premise 2: saying that Exitus is still a Sniper attack due to the rifle.
Rejection1: saying the Unstoppable aspect of the Garg saying it can only be wounded on a (not specifically to wound) roll of 6 from sniper/poisoned weapons.

P1: I'll assume is true as I didn't buy that minidex.
Not P2 means that the weapon has no range, no AP and no strength, so I'll discard (not P2) that unless it can be invalidated with RAW quotes.

So given P1 and P2 we come to R1.

GW writes terribly. There isn't going to be a clear RAW decision here. The sniper rule explicitly calls out a "to wound roll" but the garg unstoppable thing doesn't. We can assume that means they meant a to wound roll, or we can assume they meant a special roll, or we can assume that means it's time to flip the table over after grabbing your garg models and then running away.

Until we get a FAQ (aka 8th edition, which will still not fix this stuff), there is no RAW answer here.

Now on to HYWPI arguments. You say wound on a 2+, he says, but I get to discard on a 5-. Why not call it a 4+? If not, you can "roll off" and it is a 4+ anyway.

I will address this better when I am back from a meeting, if I get the chance, but I wanted to point something out: The 2+ to Wound argument does not require the Sniper Special Rule to be removed from the profile. There is nothing preventing the shot from having multiple Rules telling it do something on different values, in this case a Rule that states it wounds on a 4+ (6) and one that it wounds on a 2+. It is the existence of both Rules on the profile which creates the conflict in question as we now are required to resolve the shot at 4+ by default, 6 thanks to Gargantuan, and also have it successfully Wound on a 2+.

This conflict is resolved how?

If in a friendly game i would allow the hellfires to wound on a 4+, considering the rules to cancel each other out.

RAW however, I am still convinced that the Hellfire round, or any of the special rounds, are simply modifying the base profile of the weapon itself and not actual special rules.

If you are convinced that the Hellfire Round is modifying the profile of the weapon, why then the argument that it is modifying the Sniper Special Rule?

Its modifying the normal roll of the weapon to wound from a 4+ to a 2+.



Note: Although there is nothing in the profile itself that is changing, the 4+ to wound from sniper is the only way we have to know how to wound with the current profile, until you add the ammo's modification.

The sniper rule wounds normally on a 4+, and against gargantuans on a 6+.

The Hellfire rule wounds all things on a 2+.

There is a conflict, then, between the Exitus Ammo and Sniper rules on the exitus rifle - it either wounds on a 6+ or a 2+, as it cannot wound on both values simultaneously.

The conflict resolves in favor of the Exitus Ammo special rule, as it is more specific than Sniper, and specific trumps general.

Okay, it appears that both you and I believe that multiple Rules can be applied to the profile itself. However, if I am interpenetrating this correctly, the difference stems from the manor in which they are applied to the profile. I believe that multiple values can be simultaneously applied to any of the profiles fields, creating conflicts which the Rule book informs us how to resolve. While you believe that applying the number automatically replaces what might already be in that field at the moment that it is applied, should different numbers be applied from different Rules. Would this be correct?

Only in some situations.

For example, if a weapon had sniper, and fleshbane (2 distinct special rules), both would apply, meaning you could wound on a 2+ from fleshban, and also benefit from rolling a 6 to wound and gaining AP2 from sniper.


In this particular case, I believe that the hellfire round (which is an ammo type) just changes the way the normal profile works, modifying the to wound roll to a 2+.

If it had said "When using a hellfire round, instead of wounding on 4+ with the sniper rule you always wound on a 2+" then we would be having no issue here.

I fully understand that people want to apply Hellfire as a special rule that wounds on a 2+, just like fleshbane or other similar rules. The wording is pretty convincing to think that way.

I just want to stress though, that the special rule on the gun is Exitus ammo and not hellfire round. Exitus ammo's condition is met the instant you pick which of the 3 ammo's your using.

The ammo's themself are just modifiers to the weapons profile, which is why the other 2 do not even mention to wound rolls since its already known that they wound on a 4+ due to sniper.

Which is why I posted the Exitus Ammo Special Rule, to show that the condition being met is to apply 'one of the following Rules' to the Shot itself.
If you do not allow the Shot to Always Wound on a 2+ have you obeyed the Rule that was applied to the Shot?

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Only in some situations.

For example, if a weapon had sniper, and fleshbane (2 distinct special rules), both would apply, meaning you could wound on a 2+ from fleshban, and also benefit from rolling a 6 to wound and gaining AP2 from sniper.


In this particular case, I believe that the hellfire round (which is an ammo type) just changes the way the normal profile works, modifying the to wound roll to a 2+.

If it had said "When using a hellfire round, instead of wounding on 4+ with the sniper rule you always wound on a 2+" then we would be having no issue here.

I fully understand that people want to apply Hellfire as a special rule that wounds on a 2+, just like fleshbane or other similar rules. The wording is pretty convincing to think that way.

I just want to stress though, that the special rule on the gun is Exitus ammo and not hellfire round. Exitus ammo's condition is met the instant you pick which of the 3 ammo's your using.

The ammo's themself are just modifiers to the weapons profile, which is why the other 2 do not even mention to wound rolls since its already known that they wound on a 4+ due to sniper.

If you choose Hellfire, you've just generated a conflict between the Exitus Ammo and Sniper special rules. This conflict does not occur with the other ammo types, but it does in this specific case only.

Since the Exitus Ammo rule is more specific, it takes precedence over Sniper.

Actually Unit1126PLL,
Other conflicts occur with the different Ammo Types... for example, shooting at a Vehicle with one of the ammo type generates a Strength score of 4 and 10.

JinxDragon wrote:
Actually Unit1126PLL,
Other conflicts occur with the different Ammo Types... for example, shooting at a Vehicle with one of the ammo type generates a Strength score of 4 and 10.

Okay. I meant the To Wound roll defaults to Sniper with those ammo types because the Exitus Ammo rule does not generate a conflict with the Sniper rule in the Roll to Wound stage.

that's all - yes, you're right.

Just use the str 10 call it a day.

Str10 against vehicles.

There is no question there to be answered people, I was highlighting that the other Ammo Rules are capable of creating conflicts in relation to a post that I believed was in error. I did consider compairing the conflicts caused by each of the Rules but decided that it would be too much of a 'straw-man.' Each unique conflict needs to be addressed by it's own context instead of attempts to utilize it to try and cloud an issue that is more or less straight forward. We have Rules telling us to do completely different things and need to conclude which one is 'more advanced' so that it's instructions are the ones we end up obeying.

The answer is Strength 10, of course, because that value comes from a Rule found in the Codex while the other value comes from a Rule found in the Basic Rulebook.

I assumed that the ammo types add to the profile, e.g. "Range Whatever Strength X AP Something, Sniper" becomes "Range Whatever Strength X AP Something, Sniper, Hellfire Ammunition" in this case (I don't have access to the rules at the moment). For conflicts between Sniper and Hellfire, I thought that you're supposed to use the best available value for everything - e.g. if you have Terminator armour and a storm shield, your invulnerable save is a 3+ rather than a 5+ but you still gain Deep Strike and Relentless.

In this case, that would mean that the shot benefits from both rules, getting the fun bonuses of Sniper along with a 2+ to wound. Because we don't get weapon profiles for each shot as with Special Issue Ammunition, we must assume that the Exitus Hellfire uses the weapon's profile along with wounding on a 2+ (or else it would have no range and no AP). Due to the weapon still having the Sniper rule, it therefore only wounds on a 6.

I'd be happy to play it as a 4+ if my opponent disagreed, but the rules seem rather clear as far as GW rule conflicts go.