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It was clear to me that Guy Haley is one of the writers who truly believes that the Space Marines are as good as the propaganda say they are. One squad on a Crusade is nothing.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Wyzilla wrote:Now instead of having the ability to slam down on enemies with the force of six chapters and thus making them highly mobile and durable..... t

They never had this ability.

The only reason they got away with being illegally large was because they were spread all over the place and it was impossible to prove they had too many guys.

However they were capable of such in dire circumstances, say if the Fists were in danger of being wiped out by something- they'd show up with a gigantic fleet of near crusade proportions. Now they're just ~1,500 dudes or less, making one wonder how the hell they still exist if they're practicing melee as their main means of combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
It was clear to me that Guy Haley is one of the writers who truly believes that the Space Marines are as good as the propaganda say they are. One squad on a Crusade is nothing.

It doesn't matter how physically strong they are- they could even by the bloody Hulk or Captain America. Many guys are capable of simply drowning them in so many corpses they can barely move.

But they never, ever did. That they could have done so is... dubious. The galaxy is really big, and the BT were spread throughout it. It would take a decade just to gather their forces in one place if they intended on taking the entire Chapter somewhere. And this would mean that they weren't actively crusading, not to mention that it would mean pulling currently-engaged elements out of battle to get them to regroup elsewhere.

Probably not going to happen with the Templars.

 Wyzilla wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
honestly if the only reason you like the black templars is because you like bragging they can zerg another chapter thats pretty silly.

Honestly 6000 Marines seems a bit much as it'd be OBVIOUSLY too big. well I'm the sure high lords, inqusition etc are willing to be flexable, and don't care about a by the letter following of the codex, I can't imagine they'd turn a blind eye to a chapter that is obviously SUBSTANTIALLY bigger. because if the BTs ever decided that ohh.. the high lords where heretics, they could with their numbers become a threat.

6,000 Black Templars are a drop in a bucket and are laughably outgunned by the Terran defenses. They wouldn't be a threat to the HLOT unless they grabbed every Imperial Fist descendent and marched on Terra with a full fleet, and even then they'd probably be stomped into the dirt.

Also, without the numbers the Black Templars don't make a lick of sense, not to mention again, it horribly nerfs their actual power by a ridiculous degree. Crusades numbering roughtly around a thousand each are serious business and can put the hurt on multiple enemies simultaneously. Crusades numbering roughly a hundred and fifty each are absolutely pathetic and could be laughed off by a lot of factions.

other space Marine forces manage to partake in crusades (oft times multiple ones) without being useless. I doubt the BCs crusaded alone anyway, they proably travel with crusade forces consisting of sisters of battle milita fraternius, Imperial guard, other space marines etc. a large scale Imperial crusade is a fairly major undertaking that is going to involve elements of the entire warmachine of the IoM

 Wyzilla wrote:
http://guyhaley.wordpress.com/2014/07/11/im-baaaacccckkk/#comment-5779

So it appears the numbers of the Black Templars is getting retconned from 6,000 to somewhat over a thousand. Ouch.

No care on my part. I just ignore this lore along with all the other changes since 6th edition swapped up their mood on psykers. That or just call these another Crusader army, ignore Draigo entirely, etc

Well, well, well, Calgartulations. I almost Cato believe it. I'm not afraid of Telion you that I was Varro worried about the state of the Black Templars, but I'm glad to see they're finally acting their Agemman.
Ortan't you glad to not be gushing heresy everywhere?
Antaron't you glad to be joining the big boys?

GuillAMEN to that.

***

But really the 5000-6000 thing was only ever an upper estimate by an outside party. They could have simply been wrong.

Animus wrote:

But really the 5000-6000 thing was only ever an upper estimate by an outside party. They could have simply been wrong.

The responsible accountant had unfortunately misplaced his glasses that day and added up the numbers for the Black Templars, the Rack Tremblers, the Crack Tempers, the Block Exemplars and the Brick Tumblers chapters.

Maybe GW got evolution and devolution mixed ?

The comments of Guy Haley from the OP link :

In answer to your query, the number of Black Templars has now become just over a thousand, sometimes more, sometimes less. It’s a change in the lore. In order to accommodate the older mentions I have their numbers being more flexible than that of other chapters, but not to such extremes as in the past.

Well, I understand it is a company decision, not the decision of the codex writers. They could just about manage that number of crusades, as some of them are very small, a squad or two. As you’ll discover later. I am writing a lot of Black Templar fiction, and that will be addressed in there. And personally I think it only increases their devotion – they’re trying to conquer the galaxy with a thousand men! Bear in mind too that they have only been explicitly stated to worship the Emperor as a god, the only chapter to do so, in the new codex. That makes them super awesome, and gives them a very individual character. The lore evolves over time.

The change sucks, the Companies decisions suck too.


To be awesome, you have to try to reconquer with just 1000 Troopers and on top of that crusades of a squad or two ......
Sorry GW, its very obvious you want to get rid of the BT.

The BT weren't codex followers ( but stuffed into codex codex marines now ); a fleet based 2nd founding and didn't need a retcon ( except GW loves magic, sorry, psykers, too much and found no way to insert a silly big kit ).
I guess we can't expect anything but a few expensive BL offers who rewrite the BT until everybody has forgotten their flavor.


Dear fools located at Nottingham, also known as GWHQ, let Mr Haley work on ORK's, they need it and we don't want your idiotic retcon so both of us can have a 'win-win' situation.
Sincerely
the Templars who are Black but no UM.

What are these 2 squad Crusades crusading against? Kittens?

pm713 wrote:
What are these 2 squad Crusades crusading against? Kittens?

Puppies actually. Much more frightening.

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

pm713 wrote:
What are these 2 squad Crusades crusading against? Kittens?

Puppies actually. Much more frightening.

If you want to kill puppies you're going to need some big squads.

pm713 wrote:
What are these 2 squad Crusades crusading against? Kittens?

Honestly it sounds like a really inefficient process to send between 5-30 marines in a single ship to crusade solo especially when BT are known for their liking for orbital bombardments

 StarTrotter wrote:
Honestly it sounds like a really inefficient process to send between 5-30 marines in a single ship to crusade solo especially when BT are known for their liking for orbital bombardments

So what's with all the assumptions that the crusades are solo and not alongside IG regiments and Skitari, as was presented in Priests/Lords of Mars?

jareddm wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
Honestly it sounds like a really inefficient process to send between 5-30 marines in a single ship to crusade solo especially when BT are known for their liking for orbital bombardments

So what's with all the assumptions that the crusades are solo and not alongside IG regiments and Skitari, as was presented in Priests/Lords of Mars?

I don't see why they WOULD be with things like IG and Skitarii.

Since when were the Black Templars the only chapter to worship Empy as a God? Yeah, its not as widespread amongst the Marines, but there's got to be at least a few who do worship him as such.

pm713 wrote:

jareddm wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
Honestly it sounds like a really inefficient process to send between 5-30 marines in a single ship to crusade solo especially when BT are known for their liking for orbital bombardments

So what's with all the assumptions that the crusades are solo and not alongside IG regiments and Skitari, as was presented in Priests/Lords of Mars?

I don't see why they WOULD be with things like IG and Skitarii.

you don't see why the black templars would serve along side the other forces of the Imperium of man... really?

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

jareddm wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
Honestly it sounds like a really inefficient process to send between 5-30 marines in a single ship to crusade solo especially when BT are known for their liking for orbital bombardments

So what's with all the assumptions that the crusades are solo and not alongside IG regiments and Skitari, as was presented in Priests/Lords of Mars?

I don't see why they WOULD be with things like IG and Skitarii.

you don't see why the black templars would serve along side the other forces of the Imperium of man... really?

No I don't see why we should assume they're always with them much less the IG AND the Mechanicum at once.

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

jareddm wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
Honestly it sounds like a really inefficient process to send between 5-30 marines in a single ship to crusade solo especially when BT are known for their liking for orbital bombardments

So what's with all the assumptions that the crusades are solo and not alongside IG regiments and Skitari, as was presented in Priests/Lords of Mars?

I don't see why they WOULD be with things like IG and Skitarii.

you don't see why the black templars would serve along side the other forces of the Imperium of man... really?

No I don't see why we should assume they're always with them much less the IG AND the Mechanicum at once.

Because otherwise there would not be much point to it at all, since they can't hold much ground alone? (Something they are very aware of.)

To preserve the notion of 6000 Black Templars, and also reconcile it with around 1000 BT, I could easily see something like the following:

(Number of known Black Templar Initiates)-(number of verified Black Templar dead)=6000 active Templars

Number of verified operational Black Templars=1000 Templars


So, you have minor crusades which have disappeared without a trace (but who aren't written off as dead), crusades which are wiped out (though members may survive and reappear), crusades which are lost in the vagaries of warp travel, etc. I think it gives the writers (and the fans) a bit more freedom. You aren't going to have the BT show up with thousands of marines and smash the Black Legion or anything, but if you want to have a hard-bitten contingent of Marines pursuing a long-term crusade against aliens in the Ghoul Stars or something, it's not screwing up the numbers either. Those guys might be considered part of the strength of the Chapter, or written off as dead, or even just listed as missing in action, presumed intolerant.

If, on the other hand, you're going to absolutely insist that Black Templars (and all Space Marine forces) comply with current force sizes for real military organizations, I'm going to deny psychic powers and warp travel in response.

I tend to pick and choose between all the fluff released, and go with what seems right. What seems right;

is that there are probably slightly more than 1k Templars hanging around with Helbrecht at any one time...and the rest are scattered on their crusades.
There are more than ten Black Swords.
They hate unsanctioned Psykers, and are incredibly paranoid around sanctioned ones.

Kinda like my preference of bog standard Ollanius Pious.

Wait did he seriously say, a crusade of two squads?

...I don't think this writer understands what he is writing.

Quickjager wrote:
Wait did he seriously say, a crusade of two squads?

...I don't think this writer understands what he is writing.

Don't be so hard on him. He just played Space Marine and saw the four Black Templars at the end and immediately thought "so that's how they crusade!"

Quickjager wrote:
Wait did he seriously say, a crusade of two squads?

...I don't think this writer understands what he is writing.

basicly any time the black templars attach a unit of their troops to another Imperial force they call it a crusade.

BrianDavion wrote:

Quickjager wrote:
Wait did he seriously say, a crusade of two squads?

...I don't think this writer understands what he is writing.

basicly any time the black templars attach a unit of their troops to another Imperial force they call it a crusade.

But that wasn't a fanatical decision.

It was a choice made to obscure their numbers. If they don't have numbers to obscure then... they don't have a reason to go on crusades.

Da Butcha wrote:
To preserve the notion of 6000 Black Templars, and also reconcile it with around 1000 BT, I could easily see something like the following:

(Number of known Black Templar Initiates)-(number of verified Black Templar dead)=6000 active Templars

Number of verified operational Black Templars=1000 Templars


So, you have minor crusades which have disappeared without a trace (but who aren't written off as dead), crusades which are wiped out (though members may survive and reappear), crusades which are lost in the vagaries of warp travel, etc. I think it gives the writers (and the fans) a bit more freedom. You aren't going to have the BT show up with thousands of marines and smash the Black Legion or anything, but if you want to have a hard-bitten contingent of Marines pursuing a long-term crusade against aliens in the Ghoul Stars or something, it's not screwing up the numbers either. Those guys might be considered part of the strength of the Chapter, or written off as dead, or even just listed as missing in action, presumed intolerant.

If, on the other hand, you're going to absolutely insist that Black Templars (and all Space Marine forces) comply with current force sizes for real military organizations, I'm going to deny psychic powers and warp travel in response.

Except it's quite clearly GW deciding that the BT's should only be roughly over a thousand.

It doesn't really matter what GW chooses to write about or how many astartes they say there are per chapter.

It doesn't nerf anything.

It shouldn't reduce your enjoyment.

 Ashiraya wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

jareddm wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
Honestly it sounds like a really inefficient process to send between 5-30 marines in a single ship to crusade solo especially when BT are known for their liking for orbital bombardments

So what's with all the assumptions that the crusades are solo and not alongside IG regiments and Skitari, as was presented in Priests/Lords of Mars?

I don't see why they WOULD be with things like IG and Skitarii.

you don't see why the black templars would serve along side the other forces of the Imperium of man... really?

No I don't see why we should assume they're always with them much less the IG AND the Mechanicum at once.

Because otherwise there would not be much point to it at all, since they can't hold much ground alone? (Something they are very aware of.)

It also slows them down and means they have to work around what other people want not what they want.

But getting things done slowly is better than not getting things done at all.

 Mr. Burning wrote:
It doesn't really matter what GW chooses to write about or how many astartes they say there are per chapter.

It doesn't nerf anything.

It shouldn't reduce your enjoyment.

Except it does affect the Black Templars, as it reduces their power. Previously there were around 5-6 fleets numbering roughly a thousand each, and now if we still have those same Crusades... they're now just around a 150 each. I shouldn't have to lay this out in basic math to explain how this laughably nerfs the previous power the Black Templars had, survivability, and the weight of their Crusades.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:
It doesn't really matter what GW chooses to write about or how many astartes they say there are per chapter.

It doesn't nerf anything.

It shouldn't reduce your enjoyment.

Except it does affect the Black Templars, as it reduces their power. Previously there were around 5-6 fleets numbering roughly a thousand each, and now if we still have those same Crusades... they're now just around a 150 each. I shouldn't have to lay this out in basic math to explain how this laughably nerfs the previous power the Black Templars had, survivability, and the weight of their Crusades.

He was talkin' tabletop mate.